Deformers impossible to use accurately

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  • Dancing Mushrooms, I have 10 pairs of deformers (20 total) all under one master controler. Each mushroom is a different shape (not morphs from the same OBJ), so it would have taken forever to do this with morphs. 

     

  • Fixing Clothing
     

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  • kyoto kidkyoto kid Posts: 41,859
    Dimorphic said:

    Dancing Mushrooms, I have 10 pairs of deformers (20 total) all under one master controler. Each mushroom is a different shape (not morphs from the same OBJ), so it would have taken forever to do this with morphs. 

     

    ...nice.

  • Some draft points:Let me know if this is preachy or useful:

    Best Practice 1:
    Parent the Field to the Base, this will move all three parts of the deformer simultaniously. The base and field should have the same center point as much as possible. 

    Best Practice 2: Three phases:

    Phase 1: Initial setup
    This is to make sure the center of mass/center of pressure is correct on you figure/prop. Keep the Magnet and Field centered on the base, and only use even scaling. Use the base to translate all three.

    Phase 2: Intermediate setup
    This is where you start using individual scale X,Y,Z on both Field and Magnet, as well as translate on the Magnet

    Phase 3: Advanced Phase
    Determine if influence needs to be final changed to weight map or can be kept as sphere
    Determine if there is are are additional Deformers needed
    Test movement and poses, make final adjustments, If your making a permanent morph, determine if joint corrective morphs or other advanced techniques are needed

    More Details by Deformer Component

    Base: Center of Jiggle/Pressure, but not a joint. This is similar to a bone but is NOT the center rotation, it is center of 3D force. Don't use Deformers to simulate large rotations, make a new bone or ERC scale instead. A Deformer is perfect for a bicep bulge, horrible for whole arm movement. During initial phase translate only (don't rotate until you have finalized your translate. never scale your base!)

    Field: Scale evenly at first (don't scale x,y,z individually until your your base is near finished. All Field trans/rotate should follow/center on base If you think you need to move the field off the center of the base, you probably need to make change your influince to weight map instead of sphere. Scale evenly at first (don't scale x,y,z individually until your your base is near finished.Keep the field as long as possible before making a weight map, consider additional Deformers as well. Weight maps can be time sinks, if you are going make a morph for regular use that's ok.

    "Magnet": You will end up using all “Magnet” parameters eventually, but during initial setup just keep the scale even and about 200 percent so you can "feel" where the center of mass is, don't adjust X,Y,Z scale or any other peramiters until you have finished initial setup.Like with the base, if your using magnets for too much rotation, your using the wrong tool, make a new bone. Remember, Deformers are for expanding/contracting muscle, fat, internal bone bone pressure on skin near joints, etc.

    Best Practice 3
    Use the Right Tool for the Right Job. I may have said this too much already, because it is the mistake I make most often. 

    If your making high end morphs, you will probably have to combine temporary new bones, ERC scales on existing bones, Deformers, Merchant Resource morphs, and possibly 3rd party software make fantastic morphs.
    While I was able to hit number 1 years ago with Deformer only products, Deformers alone probably won't do it these days.

     

     

  • This is probably what most people want, how quickly map.

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  • UthgardUthgard Posts: 878

    Thank you for the bullet points and the mini-tutorial, it has given me some insight into what is actually possible with dformers. If you are taking suggestions for your future product, I would like it if there was a way to link a dformer movement to an external figure (say, a character's hand exerting pressure on another character) but I don't know how feasible that is. I would also like to volunteer to beta test, as long as the perspective of someone with barely any experience with this part of the program can be useful. It looks like something I would constantly use once learned.

    PS: The Dragonball video was hilarious.

    PPS: Linking to tvtropes without an infohazard warning? That's against the Geneva convention, I am sure.

  • DimorphicDimorphic Posts: 40
    edited September 2018
    Uthgard said:

    Thank you for the bullet points and the mini-tutorial, it has given me some insight into what is actually possible with dformers. If you are taking suggestions for your future product, I would like it if there was a way to link a dformer movement to an external figure (say, a character's hand exerting pressure on another character) but I don't know how feasible that is. I would also like to volunteer to beta test, as long as the perspective of someone with barely any experience with this part of the program can be useful. It looks like something I would constantly use once learned.

    PS: The Dragonball video was hilarious.

    PPS: Linking to tvtropes without an infohazard warning? That's against the Geneva convention, I am sure.

    1. You can absolutly manualy simulate pressure from one figure to another. Or drag along a surface, or jiggle. This can be combined with I will put detailed instructions on that in. It will be a popular item. 2. Welcome to beta testing, I just need to finish instructions. If you want to be In alpha test I can get them to you in 24 to 36 hours. No instructions. Let's see how you do. Also, because your one of my first volenteers, I'll give you this and all my future products for free even if you stop beta testing. Most of them will retail for around 20 bucks so that could be a big savings if you would have bought them anyway. 3. TVtropes is awesome. It let's me explain things to muggles without being offensive.
    Post edited by Dimorphic on
  • I know it's likely just me, but I cannot, for the life of me, use a deformer in any reliable way. The outline is never even close to where the actual deformer is, so the only way for me to use it is to move it around until the colored dots show up. Far be it to me to even try rotating! The dots vanish off my object and I have to spend another 5 minutes finding them again!

    Does anyone else have this obnoxious issue of the deformer being completely unrelated to the outline and incredibly difficult to manipulate?

    This specific problem is because deformers are applied to the base geometry BEFORE ALL OTHER calculations of of scale, morphs, poses, etc. If your figure is posed or morphed, You can see the results, but the markers will be off. To work around this, simply add a second figure to the scene that is zeroed out and make sure they have the same root location. I'll have more details in a future tutorials
  • UthgardUthgard Posts: 878
    Dimorphic said:
    Uthgard said:

    Thank you for the bullet points and the mini-tutorial, it has given me some insight into what is actually possible with dformers. If you are taking suggestions for your future product, I would like it if there was a way to link a dformer movement to an external figure (say, a character's hand exerting pressure on another character) but I don't know how feasible that is. I would also like to volunteer to beta test, as long as the perspective of someone with barely any experience with this part of the program can be useful. It looks like something I would constantly use once learned.

    PS: The Dragonball video was hilarious.

    PPS: Linking to tvtropes without an infohazard warning? That's against the Geneva convention, I am sure.

     

    1. You can absolutly manualy simulate pressure from one figure to another. Or drag along a surface, or jiggle. This can be combined with I will put detailed instructions on that in. It will be a popular item. 2. Welcome to beta testing, I just need to finish instructions. If you want to be In alpha test I can get them to you in 24 to 36 hours. No instructions. Let's see how you do. Also, because your one of my first volenteers, I'll give you this and all my future products for free even if you stop beta testing. Most of them will retail for around 20 bucks so that could be a big savings if you would have bought them anyway. 3. TVtropes is awesome. It let's me explain things to muggles without being offensive.

    Wow! That's mighty generous of you, thank you for the offer--and I am really hyped to hear about the possible applications of your system. As to whether I would rather wait or not for the documentation, whatever you think would be more useful to you for the purposes of testing would be fine. As to tvtropes awesomeness, completely agreed, it's just that https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TVTropesWillRuinYourLife

  • DimorphicDimorphic Posts: 40
    edited September 2018
    mark128 said:

    Wow! That's mighty generous of you, thank you for the offer--and I am really hyped to hear about the possible applications of your system. As to whether I would rather wait or not for the documentation, whatever you think would be more useful to you for the purposes of testing would be fine. As to tvtropes awesomeness, completely agreed, it's just that https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TVTropesWillRuinYourLife

    Check your in-box. 

     

    Post edited by Dimorphic on
  •  

  • I know it's likely just me, but I cannot, for the life of me, use a deformer in any reliable way. The outline is never even close to where the actual deformer is, so the only way for me to use it is to move it around until the colored dots show up. Far be it to me to even try rotating! The dots vanish off my object and I have to spend another 5 minutes finding them again!

    Does anyone else have this obnoxious issue of the deformer being completely unrelated to the outline and incredibly difficult to manipulate?

    Here's how to track deformers on a posed/morphed figure. Further instructions on youtube. 

  • a video would be priceless for this procedure.

  • DimorphicDimorphic Posts: 40
    edited September 2018

    This is a great Feature. I studied the Node Weight Brush and Geometry Editor Tool - it is more sophisticated but very finely adjustable.

    Really great, but there is a big Disadvantage!
    The Weight Maps depends strictly to that Position, for that the Map was designed. If I turn the Position of the Figure, the Geometry becomes unpredictable (probably because the Joints has changed).

    My Question:
    Is there a way to "bind" the Map in any Way to the Joints (or whatever it is necessary :red: ) ?
    Or is there an other Variant to manipulat the Shape (without D-Formers)?
    I'd like to make only small corrections on the Figures.
    There are many more Options in the Node Weight Brush Dialog - but I'm not able to figure out how they are applicable.

    Thx Peter.

     

    Richard Haseltine said:

    This is, as far as I can tell, a consequence of the single-skin nature of the current figures - the DForm is related to the base shape of the mesh. Fortunately there is now a workaround, instead of using the field to control the DForm select any part of it, activate the Node Weight Paint Tool, and in the Tool Settings pane select the Influence map as the active map - you can then use the Polygon group editor and the weight brush, with its gradient or sphere modes being a good substitute for the field, to edit the weighting of the DForm with far more control.

     

    this may help 

    Post edited by Dimorphic on
  • Nice DFormer setup so far, I like how you polished up all the properties with icons, color and that you made them favourits, this will for shure help people using DFormers. Because I doubt everyone that worked with DFormers had to create and fine tune them one by one, again and again in the past for every single adjustment they made. Very tedious and time consuming and after all they spawned the morph and deleted the DFormers. Again very nice to have a preset of deformers for various tasks.

    Having the genesis base shape figure in front as an avatar and the actual caracter included in the node influence is a great idea and a good workaround for the fact that the DFormer use the base shape as referece.

    The symmetry option is a nice feature I wonder how you managed the ERC linking of these properties to work across multible DFormers.

    For the ease of use it would be great if you just have to select the morphed figure then run a script that detects which base genesis figure it is, loads the unmorphed avatar, then the DFormer preset and sets the influence acordingly.

    I once setup some DFormers for to animate the genesis 2 figures breathing by inflating the chest and the belly. Would be great to have such specalized DFromer presets that can be applied with minor adjustments to various genesis generations. Maybe set some limit in the translation and rotation properties to prevent some overshooting changes.

  • Nice DFormer setup so far, I like how you polished up all the properties with icons, color and that you made them favourits, this will for shure help people using DFormers. Because I doubt everyone that worked with DFormers had to create and fine tune them one by one, again and again in the past for every single adjustment they made. Very tedious and time consuming and after all they spawned the morph and deleted the DFormers. Again very nice to have a preset of deformers for various tasks.

    Having the genesis base shape figure in front as an avatar and the actual caracter included in the node influence is a great idea and a good workaround for the fact that the DFormer use the base shape as referece.

    The symmetry option is a nice feature I wonder how you managed the ERC linking of these properties to work across multible DFormers.

    For the ease of use it would be great if you just have to select the morphed figure then run a script that detects which base genesis figure it is, loads the unmorphed avatar, then the DFormer preset and sets the influence acordingly.

    I once setup some DFormers for to animate the genesis 2 figures breathing by inflating the chest and the belly. Would be great to have such specalized DFromer presets that can be applied with minor adjustments to various genesis generations. Maybe set some limit in the translation and rotation properties to prevent some overshooting changes.

    With my generic deformer sets that use the default sphere, all you have to do is save save as a shape file. They work like any pose or shape file. So if your working on on figures pecs or shoulders, you can save the shape and it will be close on other figures. However, once you bake in wieght map, you will have to save the figure and deformers together. At that point saving shapes will only work well with the same wieght map.
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