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I've been watching/reading this thread and I'm sure you've noticed that there is a lot of push back from PAs.
That's because things change. There was a time where we didn't need to list products used. It wouldn't take much to look at older products and see that products used sections are mostly empty. However, this is no longer the case. We are now actively encouraged to fill out the products used section. A lot of the newer products have things listed. We have spaces to fill out what we are using and advised to fill them out the best that we are able. It's not perfect, we have restrictions. Yet we ARE trying.
stares at promo... think I got it all... submits product... forgets the environment!
I thought the idea was to figure out was used for yourself (just like most other things about Daz), then---if you couldn't suss it---post a thread on this forum. Maybe someone responds, maybe not, but most times help comes within less than a few hours. Daz doesn't even bother to list links to required Daz Originals products on lots of their own products! I don't know if it's environmental contamination or decades of cumulative maleducation or single child syndrome, but the level of inanity that passes for righteous indignation is so extravagant that it could easily be mistaken as irony.
I do. You know how often lighting, poses and shader packs get shafted in these sorts of lists? All the time. Someone worked just as hard on those supportng items too.
^ What Destiny said. Which is why I also try to include the lighting and shader information as well as the other stuff. I don't include poses, 'cause hey, that's what I mostly make and I want people to buy MY poses. But if I DID use another PA's pose, I'd certainly give credit because poses, lighting, and shaders sets are the ugly step-children in this market (or so it would seem). Everyone gets excited about the characters, scenery, hair, clothing, and props but those of us who make the supporting sets - we need all the publicity and customer love that we can get!!
@Novica - Thanks for the kind shout-out. It's nice to get the nod. :) (Which reminds me that I need to poke QA to get that issue fixed for you.
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Most PAs I know are willing to bend over backwards to help our customers. As long as folk are courteous, I don't know of any PA who wouldn't extend themselves to help someone out.
I think it's ridiculous to ask a vendor, who is trying to sell THEIR OWN product, to list every single thing they've used in a promo. They're not trying to sell everyone else's product. If I see something I can't identify, I'll ask. As a freebie creator I see the same kinds of attitudes with freebies as with this type of thing - no matter how much you give someone, some people want more and they seem to have no shame in telling you so. At least I have the luxury of ignoring them or telling them I don't do customer service ;). Some people feel more entitled than others...I guess that's just the way things are. It's these types that you can't make happy no matter what you do, so it doesn't help you to try.
I do have an idea though that might satisfy the OP: we could start doing promos for characters with just the naked character - no hair, no clothes. And for clothes we could use base, gray figures with no hair. That would settle things (and of course I'm being facetious).
Laurie
As I said before, I'm not one of those "when no details of stuff used are given in the promo I won't buy that product" folks, but seeing PAs going off like New Years rockets, because someone dares to state his personal intention about how he decides to buy or not to buy something makes me wonder if they probably forgot that it's the customers (!) who help them pay their rent. And as such, each customer can set his own rules for buying or not buying things. Yes, stating it as a kind of demand might be a bit... over the top. But in the end nobody has any right to judge him for his intend not to buy certain products.
Due to my quite tight budget, I only buy a very small amount of things here on the DAZ shop. If I ever would state my personal reasons to buy or not to buy something, I now fear the reactions of the PAs would probably make me buy even less stuff.
Yes, you PAs invest a lot of time in those products, and the afterwork of answering questions and cleaning up bugs... but You are paid for it. By the customers. So if a customer states something that you don't like, it might be better to swallow your pride and just say nothing instead of going close to insulting him. And maybe put yourself into the place of the customer - which shouldn't be too problematic, as you all started as customers yourself - and give his "demands" at least a thought.
As a user, I always make an effort to list the pose and lighting source (if there is an out-of-the-box I used) on my Gallery uploads, explicitly because those get so little love and I rely on them so much. If some of the users here think PAs custom-light and custom-pose every promo image, um, well... I've seen too many lighting products actually aimed at making promo images to believe that for a minute.
As weird as it may sound, the PA is trying to sell their own particular product, their promo images aren't there to advertise everything else in the shop.
Daz has issued well over 50,000 SKUs for products as I type this. Sure, a number of the earlier SKUs have been retired, but my point is that the store is absolutely huge these days.
I browse Daz sales pages and associated subpages almost daily, and I'm STILL discovering older stuff that I've never seen before. So the fact that PA's use stuff I haven't seen before, even at this point, is not suprising at all to me.
But it's the sheer size of the library that is the problem. Especially if the thing you see in the promo doesn't have an 'obvious' search term to use, in an attempt to find it via google, or the type of product is so generic that it's buried amongst hundreds of other (more popular) possiblilities.
I've seen a few PA's mention in this thread that they are trying to sell their own stuff, not other people's stuff. BUT, they are using other people's stuff to help sell their own stuff. So they are in essence trying to use other people's stuff to make their own product look better (unless they are the rare PA that has everything they need in their own library). Of course, they could just show their own product in a 'vacuum', with no other products included, but where's the fun in that? It's helpful to see how things look when in use. My point is that in these instances you are taking advantage of other people's artistic skill to help promote your own product... those other artists could use some love too.
Again, I'm not saying it should be a requirement, but IMHO it's 'common courtesy' to give credit where credit is due'. While 'usage with credits' isn't a requirement with a number of Daz products, well it IS someone else's artistic skill you are taking advantage of. And if you used any freebies that you found elsewhere - did you take a few minutes to look over the usage rights to make sure you didn't run afoul of any 'usage with credits' or 'personal use only' terms?. If 'personal use only', well using said item in a promo is certainly a commercial use, as you are definitely making money off of it. Not calling anyone out here/cant think of an example, but you get my point. AND, since you bothered to check the usage rights for such products (nudge wink), well you now KNOW what the product is (which is something you can share in the associated Commercial products thread r.e. said freebies, etc.).
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On the lighting thing, I mentioned earlier that I 'certainly don't expect' people to include such things in the 'products used' list. While I don't expect it, I certainly appreciate it when they do include such mentions.
Same for everything else. While I don't expect it (some PAs simply won't bother), I do appreciate it when PAs take the time beforehand to include such mentions (even if only a 'partial' list), and will continue to encourage such behavior.
And, as I've said repeatedly now, I certainly don't expect every little thing to get listed, It's awesome if you do this, but it's the 'major' stuff I'm interested in (premade character you may have used, hairstyle, the outfit used or the most prominent parts of the outfit you threw together). The 'smaller stuff', well as pointed out, your associated Commercial products thread is a great place to share that after the fact. Same for custom mixed characters. If you can't cover it in one or two listings (or perhaps haven't shared already in a product image if you are showcasing how your preset character looks when mixed with Victoria, etc.), but don't mind sharing the mix, yeah your product thread in this forum is a great place to share that recipe. Plus it gives you another opportunity to engage your customers (in the product thread), and maybe gets them more excited about what your next project/product release might be...
There are so many products out there now that, unless someone has a photographic memory for such things, well it's quite easy for stuff to not be readily recognizeable... Since the PA is working inside of Daz Studio with these products as they prepare their promo pics, well if you are mindful of taking notes as you work on your promos, it's much easier for a PA to determine a product's origin (with some exceptions) while working, than trying to figure it out after the fact.
Listing a portion of the products you used in your pormos is making an effort at least, and will be appreciated. And, as I pointed out, it might save you some time down the road e.g. Daz customer support sending you 'products used' inquires after the fact, questions in your product thread, etc...
As my dad often told me 'anyone can make excuses'. I'm seeing a lot of excuses in this thread, along with a few individuals that are making good faith efforts on this front when they can.
In short, Don't do it because you have to (and you don't have to), do it because you want to be helpful to your customer base!
If the item is used to enhance the look of their product, why not include it in the list? It'll not only sale your product but a fellow PA's as well.
I understand what you are saying but.... you see 8 renderings of the product and assume the vender remembers what was in those 8 renders; the vendor sees 8 of 30 renders submitted and the renders were done by an outside team so they themselves don't know what was used. In all the time I have been here... let's say pre-Victoria 1, I could count on one hand the times that something wasn't available for Commercial use or required attribution was used... when you buy the product, you are paying for the right not to have place an attribution with your product... we have all noticed the various merchant resources used for character skins but next to no one knows the name of the vendors of the merchant resources. Once I asked the team that makes of Aeon Soul about a character they used in a product image (a male elf M4 with a resemblance to their Alice character); they told me that the character was custom made with Z-brush and incomplete. Having the knowledge that a character is ustom and unavailable sometimes doesn't help. I suspect that when Daz3d forwards a question about a non product used in a promo, they accept if the vendor says I don't know.
One thing I learned over the yaers of trying to support customers is that no matter how much you do, someone will always criticize you for not doing enough.
Yeah, but I'm sure you get a warm and fuzzy feeling every time someone thanks you for a product, and discussions related to your product. Negative feedback has it's place, some is useful while other negative feedback not so much, but unless you really suck at what you do, there's positive feedback too.
Oh, and again much thanks BadKittenCo for the G8F classic biker jacket and engineer boots!!!
Nemesis10
Your points are valid as well. Custom morphed characters, etc. using ZBrush or a bunch of dials, yeah that won't be useful to anyone unless you provide a step by step on how you got there, or the actual .duf (which has it's own issues), and I don't think most people here are suggesting that. A note that it's a custom morph (and leaving it at that) in your commercial product thread can't hurt though, Also, the readme can mention this as well if you want to cover all of your bases r.e. trying to be helpful.
In the interest in making sure your bases are covered, even when 'farming out' promo pics to for other artists to do that for you, well it's good to know the entymology of what they are using.in the promo pics they do for you as it relates to usage rights. It can really suck to be the target of a DMCA takedown, or similar such actions.
(not really related, but there is one particular vendor in Daz/Poser Land that I no longer support because he marketed a product that he didn't actually make, and the person who did make it lodged a complaint, resulting in the product being pulled from a store).
Depending on how you sort your Daz folders, it's much easier for you to determine ownership and associated usage rightrs on your own computer (there's always right click in Product Library/navigate to folder, followed up by checking readmes or googling the vendor & product) than to try to figure out such things on your 'contracted artist's computer' from your own computer.
And yeah, no sense teasing people with old, discontinued product links if they are no longer available. Again though, a mention in your commercial product thread r.e. such products being NLA could be helpful to others.
Anyways just splitting hairs. Again, not expecting EVERYTHING to be shared or listed, mainly use your best judgement and be helpful when you can is my suggestion. Some of your customers will apprecaite this..
I can't imagine anyone accusing you of not doing enough, seeing how far you go with your promo images and product extras.
I love it when the PA s get creative in their promos. It's not only wonderful eye candy, but sets off cascades of my own ideas. And when I'm working on a project I switch so many things up on the fly that I often don't even know whose skin my guys are wearing for sure, or which set of morphs I tweaked my own model with- so I certainly do not expect the PA' s to remember!
That said, there always seem to be kindly souls, including PA s, ready to jump into any what hair/ shoes/ dress is that threads to help out.
Awww, Thanks! <3 I'm glad you guys are liking it.
I am thinking about doing something biker-ish for the guys. I'm not sure yet, it depends on what the market feels like at the time. I'm quite pleased with G8 biker sales.
I'm in the middle of making something else for the guys at the moment.
When I was noobier than I am now (almost a year ago), I would buy things, open them, and curse. What? That coolio dress didn't come with what I bot?! That taught me to look closer before I buy things. Ok, what does the "What's Included and Features" section say? ... I am getting eyes and skin and makeup... not the coolio hair or those rad sunglasses.
I would look at the "used items", if there were any, as links for my wishlist. That was early on. Now my wishlish is so big I would need to win the lottery to get it all. I can't even think of the last time I looked at a "used item" list.
I don't know how the PAs can make it and wish they got a bigger slice of the Daz pie. Unless they use the "Additional Products used in Promo Images" for self promotion, I wouldn't fault any PA for leaving that blank. Time is money. Besides, aren't there PAs that pay others to create promo pix for them? Should that price be jacked up because every little item must be catalogued?
Yes, as a buyer I am spoiled and I want it now and I want it easy and I want free shipping. In reality, if I see a 'must have item' and can't find it here using search or Rendo, then I will ask. Someone will know.
Since this appears to be a thread PAs are reading, I want to say 'Thanks'. I was a sculptor for many years and cannot do that now. For years I drifted, making no art. Even tho it is not on a commercial scale, I feel like I am making art again. You have enabled me to have a happier life, and I thank you for that.
That's not exactly true. Many of us CHOOSE to answer questions because we like to interact with our customers and/or have the time to do so. Not every PA does, and that shouldn't be something they should feel they MUST do. Daz gets 50% of the sales revenue for a reason - it's what they get paid to do, answer customer inquiries and the customer service part of it. Expecting every PA to do what some of us do (because we have the time and desire to) is asking a bit much. Many PAs have two or three jobs and busy lives. Expecting them to then answer endless amounts of questions and do the job that Daz is set up to do (they have great customer service and, again, it's one of the reasons they get half of the sales revenue) is pretty unfair. I'm always happy to answer questions, it's something I enjoy doing and it's something that I have the time to do. But not all PAs are able to do that, and it's unreasonable, imo, to expect them all to.
Sorry, but it is also a two way street. while a vendor relies on the customer for a sale, it's also called supply and demand for a reason, you want a product and have only one option for it, then the vendor holds the cards. The retail company I work for bends over backwards to please customers, way to much IMO and this bending over enables them to act out and be demanding at times the way they do. Luckily there is a line and I have had the pleasure to kick some out of the stores when they thought the customer was always right and took it to far. A little respect on both sides goes a long ways.
You expect PAs to give customers demands at least a thought, as evidenced by this thread some don't care what the PAs have to say on the matter. It's all about what "they" want regardless of the reasons stated by the PAs, so it's no surprise a PA might not want to give them a thought if they are not going to return the favor.
As a patron that votes with my dollars, there are 3 things that I consider when looking at new items: Is it interesting to me, is it a price I can justify spending at that particular point in time, and is it compatible with the figures I use. That's it. Quite a few of your products have hit all 3, and as such are in my library, with quite a few more in my wishlist. Listing the products used in promos is nice, no question about that at all. However, to me, it's by no means a requirement, and wether they are listed or not does not affect my decision wether to purchase a product in the slightest. I have bought a few items that I found through being listed on another product page, but probably not more than 5 products in a product library of (OMG, HOW?) 106 pages were purchased that way.
(Edited to remove unnecessary negativity).
Thank you for this reasonable post! I, too, am one of those that prefer products with promos listed, but I respect someone who tries their best, even if they miss a few. It happens. Customers appreciate people like you, versus someone who says, 'I don't list others' products in promos - deal with it'.
But that's a two way road, too. Too me it looks, as if some PAs wouldn't bother about anything said, because they are stuck too deep within their own position.
And luckily about 90% of the stuff sold here at the DAZ store is kinda optional... There is a lot that can be done with the basic figures delivered by DAZ and a few extras, maybe by adding in some freebies (whose makers usually get way too little well deserved praise) or by learning how to do stuff yourself. I am sure it would only take me a couple years to learn how to work with the different programs needed to produce the stuff I need for what I intend to render.
Well maybe that is enough money so they indeed could hire somone to do all those "What has been used for this promo" listings then? 50%? That's box promoter level percentage... Ah well, I don't have the skills anyway to produve anything sellable, but if I had, I guess I'd look for other ways to get it in the hands of possible customers. 50%? Wow...
I think a simple rule of PA etiquette would be that any product used "out of the box" and sold in the Daz store should be listed, and all customized and kitbashed products should not. Seems pretty simple...
The one pet peeve I have is regarding lighting. If a PA uses amazing lighting in a promo for a set, that lighting should be included if it is their own or referenced if it is something sold in the store. I often don't buy nice looking sets that don't include lighting or say what lighting or HDRI they used because I doubt that I could ever make that set look as good as the promo when they have cool lighting streaming through windows and such, maybe because I'm much more experienced with characters than sets, but I think it would be nice for set creators to include the lights used in promos or a link to what they used.
I'm not sure I agree with any of this. all of the vendors I see say that they either try to provide the information if a) they have it, b) it won't interfere with the workflow of what they are creating, c) if they have the time, and d) if the store has the time and space to provide a place to show the information. Second, no store that wishes to remain in business spends a lot of effort to advertise their competitors; the whole point of buy products and their licenses is to allow you to use the product without hassle. Third, as for adding freebies and anything ancillary to the product; the vendors are all ready squeezed financially... are you suggesting a price raise to support these extras? Finally, sellingoutside an established store is very expeensive too; a vendor has to do all the contract stuff, police copyright, do costomer support with no budget etc....You would suprised to learn what Amazon charges to publish a book and puit it in their store...
To be fair, I've seen a lot of these "light sets used for figure/character xxx promos" in the realms of the freebies... And some PAs DO deliver them with their figures/character
I agree with the "If it's from the DAZ shop, please list it in the promo" angle. And considering DAZ seems to take such a big piece of the cake, it would be in the company's interest to do so - because of probably more sales of the listed stuff - and they should be able to finance someone doing this listing in the promos, who's paid from those 50% they already take from the PAs
And again, the easiest "solution" would be to only use some specific stuff for all promos... it would make the products more comparable, too - which in my eyes is a great advantage... though it obviously might be a great disadvantage for a product, that only shines when used with certain stuff added to it...
Great! My guys need more to wear. And Luthbel doesn't make enough stuff to cover the empty bases. I wish I could get you to make us an Armani 3-piece suit with lapel, collar, tie and pants cuff morphs. That would sell big, and you could charge big money for it too.
I would buy the crap out of that.
I don't use other people's lighting other than HDRIs (which I sometimes forget to reference, but if it's really visible in the scene I do try; I certainly hope I've sent a good bit of business DimensionTheory's way since Iray came out). I also use some free ones from HDRI Haven, if anyone wants to know where to find those.
The lighting I use primarily is something I've been throwing at users' faces for around 6 years, so if anybody doesn't recognize the ol' SickleYield Three Point Wobber by now that's their fault, not mine, lol. I tried selling the simple base and tone mapping presets. Nobody bought.
The real fact is that my lighting is a result of constant tweaking that is slightly different in every scene. I imagine it's probably even more the case with artists that are much better at lighting than I am (ohai, Jack Tomalin). The answer is not "buy a one-click lighting set that SickleYield sells," it's "learn how to light a scene well in your chosen render engine and customize your scene accordingly."