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I'm not certain whom you address here. I have already stated that I make every effort to include what products I can remember if it was me.
It seems this topic comes up a lot, and every time no one really listens to what the PAs are saying. Straight to the point: with the limited amount of slots available to list products used, it is NOT possible to comply with this request.
At all.
Your request is rendered moot because the form we used to submit products doesn't allow it. It's not part of the main store software so any updates would probably fall behind any programming requests that make money, like to the main store software. For me, I do approximately 20-25 promos per product.. am I going to spend time to list every single product.. mind you that I bought with my own money... to cross-promote another product when I'm trying to get a product into a store so I can sell my own product? Absolutely not. With the hours I work with my main job with travel, I may have an hour or two to work on something, and I can't spend that time listing products when I need to get that product into the store. It is what it is. I'll list a few that i mostly used, and I'll promote a product I got gifted from another vendor, but I make no money from hours of listing a product I don't own, so that's asking a bit much from a PA. But you have access to forums to ask questions about something that may not be listed.. that's what this forum is for, to promote items sold in DAZ3D's store and for product information.
This is really the compromise: PAs can list some items mostly used that are available in the store, and customers are free to ask about those aren't that couldn't be listed for some reason (like it's sold in another store, it's not for sale, not enough space to list, etc). Note: Even if the capability was provided, that list simply can not be infinite, so the request would still be unreasonable... the product page would get unweildly and visually unfriendly very quickly if even 20 products were listed. The product page is most likely a web page template from the store software that only allows for so many free fields.
...
I just want to say that I appreciate it when sellers include information on products used in the promos, and understand that they can't always do it. But more than that, I appreciate the hard work that goes into making products for DAZ and want to thank the PAs for their dedication.
I don’t really need to have items listed promos. The type of stuff I use is fairly niche so I can easily identify most of the men’s content I like and if not I know others can. If it’s no longer for sale or a private item I can accept that.
I actually find it interesting and amusing to identify items in promos. I understand why folks are frustrated but I never have this particular frustration
As a buyer, to each his own in terms of what is needed and practical to own or use. For instance; Divamakeup's promo images on Altern8 Skin Shader System for Genesis 8 does not include breakdown of what was used but the promo images have captions of what character was used including the promo artist. That is absolutely sufficient, but if one wants to know the various hairs or wardrobe used in the promo they may have to either ask Divamakeup or create a thread asking for help. The main promo image is about skin shader and not hair or wardrobe. I am not sure if a prospective buyer finds the hair more interesting than the skin shader? I guess some PAs promo images are so good that it threatens the main item on sale. In a way, it is best not to have a breakdown so that buyers will focus on one thing only, and not be diverted.
Sorry Chris,
I have to contradict.
As I tried to publish a useful product, I was forced by the DAZ board to name all used addional products in my promos. Cause I was a little unsure in one of them, my request was refused.
No, it is not new (see above). And you will see the request, when publishing your next product.
Or are there some vendors privileged so they do not need?
Of cause it is a hard job to create good promos. My respect to all vendors, who do, although in a lot in the last time you see, they didn't have the patience for good render quality.
But it is at least the politeness and respect for us customers to do as best as can.
Thank you.
There is actually. Money. The hyperlinks would need to generate enough additional income to warrant the salary of the person doing the work, which I don't believe they do.
You're welcome and thank you very much.
I have done this and its even more time consuming then the method we have for adding it to the product page.
Every promo in this set is labeled with what was used - https://www.daz3d.com/model-me-this-3-poses - and it was time consuming. One of the reasons why the "additional product used" list excists is so that Daz3D marketing can see just how many sales are generated by customers finding the product through that list. By listing it on the image alone, none can tell if the promo had a part to play in the future sale.
As a customer and a vendor here, I can see both side of it. It is nice to have the list of what was used. Personally, since I sell here, I only want to use and promote products sold at Daz3D in my promos. But even then, I dont remember to include everything. Most often, lights, shaders & texture sets are forgotten as they are not as obivous as the models themselves. And because the female models I used are custom mixed morphs, I cannot list every character set that went into making the model as it would be far to lengthy and serve little purpose as they are blended together with no particular character morph standing out more than the rest.
I'll just skip the excuses and aguments as to 'why' and limitations (etc...)
And just state the fact that I only buy from people that have given proper 'Promo Credits'
And, seriously.
Are you telling use that a store as large has DAZ doesn't offer enough range of content that the promo artists souldn't be restrained to using just what is in the store... Come on.
Dont' bother to argue I couldn't give a rat's wossname
Just my two cents
If you mean you wanted to submit a product to the store, I very much doubt that that was the message they intended to send (if it was products required to use the item then that would make sense)..
If "proper" means "all," not sure how many products in this store even do this, so it seems needlessly restrictive. But, to each his own.
With a limited amount of slots for entering products, that's not even possible unless a product used very few products in the renders to credit in the first place. I'm not sure why people would even threaten PAs over something they don't have any control over.
I'm just curious. Does this mean that for those of us PAs who make both products for our own catalogs as well as for Daz O's or the PC+ get penalized? I know that my sets for the PC+ don't often have the "additional products used" in the promos listed (and the artwork on those products are also created by Daz's in-house promo artists so I have no control over what additional products they use to promo the product I have made on Daz's behalf). But, I do make an effort to include a list of products I do use in my promos that I've made for my own catalog.
Where would I, and other PAs like me, fall in this scheme of things? Does that mean you're not going to buy from me because my PC+ products don't list the additional content, even though I list them on the products in my catalog? I'm also asking this of the OP, too, so don't think that I'm just singling you out. I'm just very curious as to where you (and others who vote with their dollars) draw the line, and then ask you to consider how fair that line really is? You're penalizing PAs who have no control over a portion (and sometimes that's a significant portion) of their work. I personally rely on customers purchasing the products in my catalog, rather than the ones I make for the PC+.
I've read your posts and I understand them. Just in case I was not clear, I am not arguing with your points, but rather offering how even coming from a customer's perspective--disregarding what the PAs have to go through--this attitude does not make sense to me. Regardless of the reasons PA's don't (and cannot) list every single item, if you restrict yourself to only products that do list every single product used, you may not have enough items to even render a coherent scene. Thus, my inability to understand why any customer would needlessly restrict him or herself to this.
Of course, you'd think that understanding why a PA cannot do this--explanations that you, along with others, have offered--should make people more, well, understanding, but apparently not.
No, I was just adding to your statement, not arguing against it
Well. Lets hope that one day soon they see 'cents'
Anything else is just woffle...
Nope, it's flawed human nature, especially with customers and unfortunately by trying to make them happy businesses enable that mentality, it's a no win situation.
I certainly don't expect PAs to share lighting details, character mixes, and other such tools in these lists. Those are 'craft related', not 'that outfit, hairstyle, etc. that I think is real cute.'. But if a PA chooses to share those additional details (for unique things like say HDRI backgrounds or set pieces), I'm sure that some may appreciate that.
I'm mostly interested in the models used if they are 'premade characters', and clothing and hair, and to a lesser extent environments (if premade). Things like added tattoos, moles, different skin textures, etc. I certainly don't expect, but occasionally I do see PA's mentioning these (in these cases, I'll need to remember to take the time to thank them if it saves me some time hunting them down).
While it might not fit the 'promo vibe', for example including a 'used custom created character' mention on the product page - perhaps mentioning it somewhere else so that people don't go hunting for something you hand-spun using the dials might be a time saver. That might be something that you could mention in the asssociated commercial products thread, say in the OP. Of course, then you may be unundated by requests for your 'custom character'. As to whether that 'hand spun' character may end up being your next product due to popular demand... well that's another topic entirely
This is great when people can reach out to PA's in this fashion. It does beg the question, if people are soaking up your time after the fact, why not just take a little extra time beforehand, so that you don't have to deal with all of these random inquiries after the fact. Even if you just include the links for the stuff you can readily recognize (say a hairstyle), well it may save time down the road.
It's too bad that it's not easier to identify products inside the Daz interface, i.e. say 'right clicking' on the item under scene to bring up a 'readme' or 'browse to folder' option.. There are ways to 'dig' in the product library, but yeah it's not a straightforward process, and for older products, well documentation can be more lacking for older products, if they are even still available.
You can 'browse to location' under content library using right click from the product thumbnail, which can give you additional clues, but of course you'd have to remember to do that and make a note when you first add the product to your promo scene, which can disrupt the creative process. Once it's in the scene, going back and researching the stuff you added after the fact can be a bit more time consuming.
Perhaps having a notepad window open where you can quickly type notes as you are adding stuff to your scene may save you some time down the road, if you were planning on including a list of products used, might not be a bad approach. To me, it seems like the easiest time to determine a product's origin would be when you are first adding it to the scene - right-clicking the thumnail to navigate to folder, and scribbling down the relevant folder info. Once it's in the scene, well the search funciton in Studio is less than perfect - which can make this more difficult after the fact.
Again, I don't think this should be a requirement, but do take the time to thank the PA's that take the extra time to figure this stuff out and include it in their product listings, or failing that in their commercial products thread (said info is most helpful if included in the OP please, if you can manage it).
I was about to thank another PA here, but the first few of my other favorite PA's which I checked (googled their name, clicked on the first product on the list in the Daz store) didn't have associated product lists on said pages. Hence why it seems more like the exception than the rule to me. I didn't check their forum commercial product threads though...
Sixth search was the charm. Thanks JoeQuick for Duckie, your other products, and taking the time to include a list of some of the additional products that you used in various promo images on your product pages!
I understand their perspectives to an extent.
DAZ allows users to streamline their workflow (though it does not eliminate the need to still learn some basics and then some). So, with the idea of streamlining the workflow, I can see why people would like to know everything that was used in a promo.
But once you understand how this marketplace actually functions, given all the explanations that have been given, people should understand why that's not what's happening. To boycott products on this basis doesn't help anyone. How, as a user, are your renders best served by this boycott, especially when PAs have already explained why not all products can be listed?
To say that another store will link to DAZ products does not actually demonstrate any unfairness on the part of DAZ. If you're selling products to be used in and with someone else's product (i.e., DAZ), you assume that your customer base already knows about that someone else's product (i.e., DAZ). The reverse is not true.
I'm grateful that DAZ allows other stores to sell compatible products in the first place; I wouldn't expect them to want to freely advertise for their competitors.
I'm grateful that DAZ PAs get to stoke our creativity by showing us awesome promos, not needing to be restricted by what store they have to buy their products from, by what products are still available today, or anything else.
I'm grateful that DAZ PAs and the DAZ community are a helpful group of people who will generally respond to inquiries to what products were used when asked.
I understand that it would be great to know everything that goes into a promo render, but given all the explanations given thus far, I would urge people not to do themselves a disfavor by boycotting something simply because not everything used was listed. Focus on what you need to make your own renders great, and use this helpful community by asking questions.
Personally, the reason why I usually don't list the items I use in my Promos is because I very rarely use a product "out of the box". Almost all the items I used I modify (either with my own personal hair shaders, my own clothing shaders, or have kit-based, or some other modification to the product), so listing an item I used that I modified in some way would be disingenuous and doesn't seem right. A customer would expect to get that same look with a product I list, so if I've modified said product, listing it doesn't seem right and seems dishonest.
They PAs who do list, do it as a courtesy to their customers, and they go out of their way to list other PAs products (of which they already paid their hard earned money for). Threatening to not buy from a PA for not listing all the items that they use in their promos is just silly and will likely make some of the PAs want to list Promo items LESS often rather than more often.
Thankfully I only see two people who say "I won't buy unless you list" and see a higher number of people thanking the PAs for when they do list. For those customers who are thankful - I'll try harder to do less kitbash and less modifying of products and try to list the items I use more often.
But..but..but..I like seeing your kitbashed results! Plus, you are already so active and responsive in the forums that people can ask you questions.
I think that, if you are kitbashing (totally fine, and an artform that should be encouraged), that a mention in your commercial products thread r.e. such things is probably a good way to go. It's YOUR promo image, creativity shouldn't be limited
IMHO the goal here is NOT to limit creativity, but to point others in the right direction when they see something they like.
So much this :D I don't how many hairs and outfits I've retextured for a promo :D PA's love kitbashing too :D Another PA showed me a promo they'd done and I asked what the outfit was, and he listed 15 things he'd kitbashed (and retextured) to put together just the outfit.
Earlier it was mentioned that other sites have this capability, however checking out products on two other sites, the PAs here do way more in listing products used. On the majority of the product pages on one site, you'll see their own related products, then under promo credits "This product has no specified promo credits available." is commonly shown. That's NO promo credits listed at all. The other site I checked had maybe 4 items listed on their product pages, but not things such as clothes and hair. So if other sites do it better than here, it should be far easier to see an example of that than me clicking on product pages for about 30 minutes and barely finding any credits.
At the other store I think you are mentioning, some of the time the other products that the artist chooses to mention are sometimes listed in the product text towards the bottom of the 'main' product page. Promo credits would probably be a better place to put those, but my point is that there are several places that such information might appear on the product page. Editorial is another place where you occasionally find additional info, and of course sometimes in the margins of the images themselves (some PA's here do that with their images too)...
I've seen the promo credits sublink filled in occasionally, but agreed it's not used as often as one might like. But this thread is about Daz pages, so enough about that.
Actually I'll continue. The point is that PAs don't get enough credit for things they do and most often are blamed for things that are out of their control.. such as this thread where they are actually limited in what promo items are listed. Short of a code and database changes, this situation won't change, and customers need to be aware and understanding of that fact. Also note, my assessment still stands on how promo credit items generally aren't set up in comparison to the store here.
PAs are extremely generous with their time, for the most part. And I don't understand everything but it's obvious why kitbashing, using shaders, combining characters to create their own unique one- would throw off customers who would then be expecting those products to look like that. That would be FAR WORSE than not listing the products.
PAs listen to suggestions and ask for input all the time. Just two days ago, Feral Fey was on my art studio thread within hours of being @ I can't count how many PAs have graciously answered my @ to assist my thread surfers, but at least 50 have done so. Customer-friendly is their middle name.
Every minute spent tracking down what's used in a promo is a minute not spent developing products people might buy. There is a hazy level of indirect benefit, and it's nice to be nice to customers, but I'm selling my (whatever) product, not thirty other folks' products.
As for limiting promos just to a product or similar, when I buy a product I'm expecting a tool or item that I can use with other stuff. I want to see an example of how useful the product is with other stuff.