Used items in Promo pictures
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Posts: 396
Unfortunately I have to repeat my criticism of the seller and DAZ. It is very customer-unfriendly that as a customer you have to search the used articles of a promotional image in time-consuming research, only to find out that the article either no longer exists or is in another store or somewhere here at DAZ. Also the constant demands here in the forum which article that is annoying with the time and reduces the feel-good factor when shopping very. I have decided to stop buying products that do not clearly list what was used for the promotional images. The bottom line is that I save a lot of money every month.
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I don't understand why people think that PAs should be obligated to list every item used in their promos.
First, this is a fairly new phenomenon. Products rarely listed items used for many years (I've been doing this since the turn of the century). Some started listing items that were used mainly because another PA allowed us to use one of their items in our promos and we wanted to thank them by letting others know that we'd used it (them). Some started listing products they remembered they used as a courtesy to their customers. Now some people are demanding we tell them or they will just stop buying. I hope people will come to understand that this is rather unfair to demand.
I'm in the process of packaging up a product. It is just too difficult to remember everything that got used because I'm often changing things on the fly. Sometimes we will kitbash. Sometimes we use items from other stores and we can't list stuff from competing stores. Sometimes I use hair, but then use a hair shader from someone else, lipstick or nails from two other products. I will start a render and think, that doesn't work at all, and quickly search for something else to replace this, that or the other. I might have to render 100 promos and thumbnails trying to get what works best.
Until someone has done a product with a good-sized set of promos, and they're rushing to get everything done because the promos can take almost as long as making the product and they need to get it in, it's hard for a customer to understand what's involved. I have seen a few new PAs say they now understand what they didn't as a consumer.
We also have a limit as to what we can list, plus we go in and change textures and settings in surfaces, so even if you get the products, you still may not get it to look the same. Our job is to make the product we are selling look good. The promos with items in them, other than the product, are to show how they might be used.
I will list the most important things I used, but I just can't make promises to do more than that and really shouldn't have to. We are really no different than any other store that does advertising. If someone does an ad for shorts, the shirt, shoes, glasses, etc. aren't going to be listed even if you can get them at the store. If you ask the store, they might know, and if you ask us, we can try to remember for you.
Keep in mind that PAs are not trying to keep you from knowing, but there is too much to do to add keeping track of every item to our long list of chores.
Agree with everything you said Cris. I have been doing this a long time. I have alot of content purchased over almost a decade of doing this. Tens of thousands of dollars spent from so many different sources. Precious content given to me by dear friends/vendors who have passed on and are not even with us any longer. Punishing us for being creative? We can only use a limited catalog of content of items only available here and relevant to the times? Thats beyond unfair. Also we could easily create promos using items today that in 3 years are removed from the store and even being linked/listed they would be unavailable and people would be complaining then.
I'm a customer, and I would agree it is unfair to Demand it. Ask which items it is by all means, but than also accept that all PA's might not be able, or even having the time, to respond to it. Most often when something is being asked, it is also responded to. Either by the PA or by other users.
Would I Wish that all items could be listed, naturally I would as it would help me out a lot. But I do not think it's possible for that to happen as I've seen on more than one place that there is only a certain amount of items that is allowed to be listed (12 I think it was?) as well as not all items may be from Daz, or even be for sale anywhere. So before starting to demand, try to take a step back and think about how it would be if you were in the PA's shoes. And that is before even touching on how much Extra job that would be for the PA, which naturally would than come out on the price of the product.
I can't even begin to understand all the work that goes into the product, or the promo making. But it's Far more than most of us users will ever see I believe, unless we too become PA's.
So instead of demanding and risk alienting (probably spelled that wrong) the PA for the lack of a list, ask about the product and than give thanks to the PA when/if he or she are able to respond (or give thanks to other users when/if anyone is able to answer your question).
That is my opinion atleast *shrugs*
/C
I have been here since Zygote ... I would love to see items used listed, always have. I too dislike having to search, guess, or wait for someone to answer the burning question ...
the solution is to only use products in the promos that are available here at DAZ ... Limit the amount of items allowed in a promo, list them. Highlight the for sale item, not the promo renders, that way we actually see what we're getting, not a ton of other stuff that we would love to buy that is not even available here. that skews what we are seeing of the for sale product. why do we have to deal with a PAs creative artistic vision when we should see our own anyway. or limit the creative promo to one at the end or something.
And you all know that the stuff is not listed becasue often we would not buy the for sale item but run off and buy the items used in the promo. I have done it a lot, and I'm sure many other folks do as well, especially hair.
I get why a PA can't list all of the products used in promos. The more complex my scenes become the more difficult is is to remember everything used. Sometimes I just go through my library and stop when I see something I want to use. It seems ridiculous to demand this. Besides, the PA is selling their item beng featured not all the other stuff in the scene. Why would it be their responsibility to list everything being used? Just ask in the forum, loads of people will be glad to help.
This could not be further from the truth. All the reasons PAs have for not listing products, fear that buyers won't buy the one they're on the sale page for is not among them. PAs don't use products that compete with the one they're selling in their promos, so this isn't even remotely a factor. The reason stuff isn't listed is a) it isn't available here, b) we made it just for the promo, c) our compatriots made it for us for a promo, d) we did 160 promos and can't remember which ones used what (this is not an exaggeration in the slightest-- we make so many promos that we don't end up using).
It would be awfully nice to
first point - yes, it would be nice, but at this point they should just start posting basic clay renders for promos since apparently not having a list of whats used it driving some raving mad and that would be much easier for the PAs.
second point - the problem with that is that the bulk or traffic is in the commons and when questions like these have been posted in other forums, they don't get as many views and even less responses. In favor of that you get the users that have no idea on the items used, get tired of the same users asking over and over again, or users that don't care to see these types of threads.
third point - I couldn't agree more with the last part about how important the textures are, it's the hardest part to create when not using a MR and the one that often doesn't get shown thanks to DAZ nudity policy. It's also the main thing I buy a character addon for and why most of mine are bought at other stores where I can see the complete product. I recently saw a new character for G8 at the other store and was impressed with the face morph, only to view the other promos and see no nude ones, so I had to pass on that one. Makes no sense to me to spend all that time creating your character only to not show it off. If nudity is an issue for you, move on to creating props or clothing.
This is just my thank you for when the 'used in promo' information is available. I'm at a loss sometimes when I try to remember what I used in a single render so I can only imagine how hard it would be to remember or note each product used in a promo render.
I have been able to get some cool stuff when the information is available.
Thanks again!
I don't think most people who buy content here know how much work goes into the production and submission of a product. It's a huge ordeal with lots of stuff to fill out, list and lists of every single little thing included in the product, and a ton of other stuff to fill out in the submission process. I can be HUGELY time-consuming (and this on top of all the time it took to produce the product, create icons and tip files for it, do promo images for it, have it beta tested, etc etc).
To also insist that the PA track down and list all the items that they used in the promo images is asking a lot on top of all that. And to say that you won't buy a product simply because a PA doesn't list all the items that they use in the promo is ...I don't know the word for it, but it's a pretty crappy attitude considering how much work many PAs put into their products just to have someone dismiss it for not producing a list of all the products they used in their promos.
If you're going to pass on a product, do it for something LEGIT, like "I have no use for this product and probably won't use it". Don't pass on a product you're interested in simply because of "no list of other products used in the promos". Argh...
*steps off soapbox and goes off in search of coffee and a happy place*
I don't belong into the "won't buy because of no item list for the promos" but if push comes to shove, this added information - just like useful promo pictures, that aren't just "art" - may influence my decision if I have to decide for what item I will spend my wife's hard earned money or better, the part of it available to me to budget my hobby.
So true, I have no idea what goes in to getting a product in the Daz store, but it's gotta be a lot. There is no way I'm not buying something just because there are no promo credits. More often than not, I'm posting a "identify this item" thread and all the eagle eyes, including the PA themselves respond.
90% of products in DAZ store has "Additional products used in the promo images" in their description and AD can buy them. 100000 products to choose from... So, this is not a problem at all :)
Aren't there literally dozens of threads dating back several years asking a variant of "What was used in X promos?" I haven't been here that long, but I've seen plenty of these threads in one form or another.
As for why, that should be elementary. There are several reasons. In the past, let's be honest, old promos just aren't on the level as current Iray promos can be. Promos with Iray can be very eye catching. Its only natural for people to look at something like that and wonder what it is. This is an asset store, so people are looking for assets. Its logical.
The user base is not the same as it was 15, 10, or 5 years ago. On top of that, Daz has grown quite a bit. Daz triumphantly reported that V8 and G8 has been one of their fastest adopted bases in a long time. I believe this points greatly at the size of the user base growing. As more and more people get into this, you are naturally going to find more people who ask such questions.
Should it be required to list promo items? No. But I do think it is something that could be encouraged as a community building effort. Listing promo items could encourage sales for other PAs, who would be inclined to return the favor. Nobody has to list every single item, but it sure would be nice if the primary items used could be. If an item is prominently displayed in a promo, why not list it as a courtesy?
Because, thankfully from a creative point of view, Daz does not restrict PAs to only use current Daz3d products. We cannot link to items from other stores. We cannot link to items that have since been removed/retired from this store. There are a variety of reasons why it physically can't be done.
Also, please consider kitbashing. Someone might use the roof from one set, the water from another, the wall lights from a third, furniture from a fourth, etc. for one render and we only have 12 slots available for links (this is exactly the case for the 13th promo for Heavy Rain).
I tried hard to list all the items that I used in my promos for my most recent product but the dress in my main promo was made by another Daz 3D vendor for the store but it was not accepted here. She took it to the other place for sale and had given me a copy of it. I like it so I used it. I didn't realize that it could be a problem for customers. Vendors are not allowed to list products used in promotional images that are sold elsewhere.
Another product I tried to list but could not find the artist nor the store name for it. I used ground shaders that I got from Daz 3D but the folder only said 'ground'. No vendor or product name was listed. I searched for the texture that I used in the store but didn't see it. I simply couldn't list it so I moved on.
I must assume that it happens often to other vendors as well.
She meant the store feature that lists them, not the desire to know what the products are.
Quote the relevant bit. Asking about items isn't new, it's the claiming that if all items used in promos aren't listed then they won't buy that is new.
Now I see how PAs use various sources for promo images. It's interesting! It is also defeating that items used in the promo will be bought or sought after instead of the core item on sale.
Although I would like to understand the effort of some sellers, the entire business policy of DAZ and its sellers is aimed not only at the pure product e.g. selling a character because that would be contrary to the entire virtual concept.
DAZ is an online store that aims to sell its customers the so-called extra-posed concept. For this, a naked character alone would not make a bestseller. Only the articles of a promotional image used for this suggest to the customer to create similarly good images with the product. That is legitimate, but then it must be legitimate for the customer to know what exactly was used for these images. For example, I would also buy no baking instructions for a cake in which the entire contents remain secret and only suggest photos that if the cake is somehow baked by me I'll get a similar result. That could be transferred to many areas of everyday life. For example, even on machines that I buy - what use the pure machines without a "whats inside manual"? If only the article in question really mattered, sellers would only show and promote this article and not beautify it artistically with many many additional items just to make it look beautiful and sell through the overall look. However, the customer never gets the opportunity to create this virtual image in a similar way even by purchasing the individual article, since the perhaps influencing effects of the other articles used are missing and only through page-long online searches through over 100,000 DAZ articles finds out. If I really go into a store, I can ask for it directly when buying and I am informed directly at the time of purchase. This is not the case with DAZ. The argument that a listing is far too costly and not feasible, counts only conditionally in view of the fact that some other online stores can list their used products, why should not be possible at DAZ? I like to support sellers, who not only think about selling, but who are also customer friendly and helpful. But presupposing that the customer should take care of it himself - that is a long way from the current clientel and the obligation as a seller to satisfy the customer. What is there the problem to list the used articles decently (you have to write this down when creating the image) - this is expected but also from a customer who publishes a picture - even of the one is expected to list his articles used - only sellers not? I stick to it, it does not take too much to be considerate of its customers and not just virtually "pinch the sausage" to the customer, which it will never reach. Then I would rather, really only the naked article (eg character - without hair and without clothes) to see without any extras - if it really was only about the pure article - but this is not the targeted sales tactics of DAZ and their seller, who deliberately play with the subconscious of the virtual gifts and the desire of the customers because otherwise one would handle it differently.
By the details of the articles used, I can see if it is personally worth spending money on this product or what extra financial expense I have, I wanted to achieve a similar effect. In today's age, where money plays a big role, not an insignificant decision issue.
There are an awful lot of assumptions being made in this statement. The goal of the product is for the PA to sell their specific product. These products are not about how to recreate the promos. That's what tutorials are for.
Many PAs, including myself, try to list what significant products we use as a courtesy to our customers as we know many of them want to know what was used. Providing images so a customer can see how the product might be used is meant to be inspiration. Knowing the exact products can be good for doing what was seen in the promo, but the promos were never set up with that intent.
I have rarely ever used anything I saw in promos, that was ancillary to the product, because I want my own creative stamp on what I make. If I purchased something I saw in a promo, it was because it gave me an idea for use in a completely different setting.
We are trying to inspire you to use our products. We are customer-friendly. Many of us will answer questions when asked, will help you work with one of our products if you have trouble even though it is Daz that runs customer service. It's why we share the profits with them. Still many of us will go beyond this. We expect to help you when you need it, how to use the product, tips for making the most of it, but that shouldn't extend to items used in a promo, even though many of us will try to assist you with what we know of someone else's product if we have made use of it ourselves. Really, our obligation, though, ends at assisting with the product. Anything else is courtesy.
While I don't think the listing of 'additional items used in the promo pics' section's usage is anywhere close to 90% (it's getting better though), I do occasionally take a second to thank the PA that includes the list of products used in the promos. Unfortunately, they usually only have Daz store stuff listed on the Daz store product pages (BTW, the 'other store's' content creators do occasionally mention stuff that is available here, which is nice). But the time I save because a PA took the extra time, well it deserves a thank you.
So, yeah Mattymanx, I'm calling you out (again) to thank you (again) for including 'additional products used' in your product listings!!!
It's a huge timseaver for me when additional stuff gets listed, when I see something I want... I will also usually take a sec to look at 'what is this' threads here in this forum to see if I recognize something, and sometimes end up wanting it too, but in either case I will in some cases, when I see said threads, I will take some time to see if I can track something down. If I find or recognize something, I'm more than happy to tell the person who asked, because I know how much time I spend in the store hunting stuff down. And a few people here have helped me finds stuff, so I pay it forward when I can.
PA's that 'get this' and take the extra time to list the items they recognize or can firgure out easily enough, well I like to use the time I save NOT having to hunt such things down myself to browse their store instead, to see if they have anything else that I may want at some point.
So, yeah, PA's. If you take the time to list even a few of the things you used that you recognize, well keep in mind that the time I save not having to hunt stuff down may mean that I spend more time in your store instead... Which could mean more income for you if I see more of your stuff which I may want as I leisurely browse youre store - instead of say googling like mad trying to find stuff I saw in promos...
My advice to you buyers is, if you want to see more PA's regularly listing additional products in their product pages, take a second to thank them in the relevant product thread when they do this. Sometimes a bit of extra appreciation can go a long way.
99% of the time, baking instruction will tell you "use xxx of this type of chocolate and yyy of this type of flour", not "xxxx of this chocolate from this brand and yyy of this flour from this brand" with link to the exact product used.
You have the "what's inside" manual, that's the product description. Everything else used in the promo pic is not part of the product and wouldn't be listed in the "what's inside" manual of a real-life item either.
As a matter of fact, almost no real-life advertisement for an actual item will tell you what the other items in the promo photograph or movie are....
The point of promo pics is actually to sell you that item. But in most cases, showing that item on its own would not sell anything. Almost no one would buy characters sold only as a bald naked figure in default pose on a blank background, lighted with default light. Almost no one would buy a hair piece or clothing item promoted without one or more figures, because you don't see how it fits. Using characters in promo pics for a set or props tells you about the scale of that item.
So yes, vendors will use other items to show off how good their products are. But they're selling you their products, and demanding that they advertise products from other vendors is really a stretch.
It's nice if it's there, it's certainly not a deal-breaker if it isn't (YMMV). There may be an argument to say that not having them would actually save me money because I wouldn't constantly be adding stuff to my wishlist!
Still, it's all personal preference. The OP said that he wouldn't buy stuff if the promo items weren't listed. That's his choice and, whilst many would consider it his loss, it's up to him. There is no argument, however, to INSIST that vendors do this - they are trying to sell their own products, not those of everyone else.
I often wonder why it is possible in other online stores to even publish a listing directly on the promotion pictures? Appreciation must always emanate from both sides as buyers and sellers - this is not a one-way street. Incidentally I do not particularly appreciate it when I have to beg in the forum on various products used just to get a statement or no message. Often I was helped, but sometimes came no answer - then at least you know that this product is not sold at DAZ. But that's not a real help either. But I realize it is unnecessary here to suggest a rethinking or an improvement - I can only hope that the really sales-oriented sellers wake up quite soon - because I determine as a buyer, for what and for whom I spend my money. For my part, in any case, I will only reward the sellers with my purchase, who are not too bad to list their used products. Since I started doing this, I save a lot of money and I already thank all the sellers who make a free choice list. This is appreciated by me - as a past very good DAZ customer - accordingly.
Well, it is certainly up to each customer what makes them make a purchase. In the end, I respect whatever drives a customer's purchase. I wanted to impart what makes the task cumbersome in a general sense as not everyone understands what's involved.
In all the arguments on my part but maybe at DAZ already sold too much so that it is more or less important for a single customer. Otherwise you would probably be more flexible in your proposals. Really sad that customer suggestions for improvement are not heard. But it does not lead to anything - I give up and understand everything!
To imply that a site is not custermer friendly for not listing what is in the promos is very harsh.
Both DAZ and PA's have always gone out of their way to repond to inquiries as to what products are used in promos if they get asked. I have recieved countless emails from DAZ's customer service asking about such things, and have always taken the time to look up and respond to those inquiries as best I can. Even for products that are several years old and there is no way I could remember what I used. But still I would try to find out what I could to help. If that is not customer friendly, I really do not know what is.
For newer products daz has included on our submission page a place where we can list what is used in the promos, and highly encourages us to fill it out.
So everyone is working towards helping out in this situation......even though, as a PA it really does nothing to sell our own product, and yes, THAT is what we care about. This is our living. We get no compensation from selling other peoples products. So every time we provide that kind of information, it is a simple courtesy to the customers.
Seems I'm once again the exception from the rule, because for me those usual promo pictures are nice to have, but rarely useful, as they tend to be a selection of "best of" pictures, instead of giving me the basic details for my shopping descision.
It's nice to see, that a figure looks good in a certain dress, with a certain hairstyle, lighted by a certain light set... but I don't buy that figure because of that dress, or that hairstyle or the lighting...
Add to that, I guess many a customer has bought something, just to be utterly unable to make that product look anywhere close to how it looked in the promo, due to lack of skill. So having some pictures without all the shiny other stuff around - basic and simple, as one can achieve it with the pure, basic downloadable DAZ3D most users start with, would be very helpful in my opinion.
So doing more basic promo pictures would not only reduce the amount of time and effort needed for the PA, it would also make an end to all those "where can I get xxx" threads floating through each and every part of the forum.
If a PA rather wants to deliver "shiny", hoping that it makes for better sales, he/she should not wonder about some people stating, that having a list of used items for the shiny promo is vital for them.
Everyone's going to have a different opinion on this one, and I don't think there is a single right-or-wrong answer.
I found "other products used" lists most helpful when I was a newbie and wanted to build my library. If something wasn't listed and I was curious, I asked the vendor directly. Maybe I was just lucky, but vendors answered my emails even if the answer was "I don't remember the exact outfit's name but I do remember I bought it at such-and-such." And many products in the store DO have a such a list with some of the additional products used.
I don't think the vendor should be obligated to provide an exhaustive list, however. Some vendors use custom-created characters in their promos, some use freebees, some use products sold at competing stores, so an exhaustive list is not realistic. The vendor should just have to concentrate on making the best product possible and providing promos that include enough visual information to sell that product.
There's no reason why an intern or temp couldn't be employed by Daz on the backend to review the final promos, identify the additional products used to the best of their ability, and then do the hyperlinking. This type of cross-referencing is really promotion of internal products which is why big-box online retailers always have internal hyperlinks (think: Amazon). Granted, at other places internal hyperlinks are based upon database information but the purpose of such hyperlinks is to drive more sales of products that the online retailer sells. So it's more of the retailer's responsibility than the vendors, IMHO.