The quirky challenges of modeling for Genesis figures?
exstarsis
Posts: 2,128
(Eta: Changed the topic title so it’s obvious I’m not asking ‘why do PAs do this thing?’ because clarity is good.)
Lately I've learned a couple of things about why so many models in the Daz store look the way they do.... I think.
For example, I just read a discussion over in the Commercial forum about tactical assault armor where the PA explained why female models almost always get skimpwear. It's about the boobs! But not just about boobs looking sexy. The model projects onto the clothing textures, and because breasts are so variable between models, it can really screw up textures on the clothing, and there's no really easy fix. It seems like the closest one comes is models with clothing custom-tailored for them....
Another thing I always questioned (eta: privately, to myself, because it never occurred to me there was potentially a real reason other than hotness) was "Why the heck do all these great dresses lack shoulders?" So MANY awesome dresses are strapless, with weird slide-on sleeves in place of real sleeves. I have slowly been working my way past wondering, "How the heck does she put that on? What holds it up?" but meanwhile, I've discovered that this isn't just some shoulder fetish; there's actual difficulties with the shoulders of the Daz models that make it convenient to just... skip that part.
So what else out there has an explanation that isn't just Very Sexy or It Doesn't Sell? PAs, what's hard about modeling for the Genesis models? I love learning these things.
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Comments
I suppose the only real way around the first part would be to use shaders instead of textures. But then, all the detail would have to be modeled into the clothing or armor piece, each detail with it's own shader greatly increasing the amount of time to make an item as well as the size of the geometry for both disk space and ram space. Also, shaders would have to be created for each render engine the PA would want to support which would be a whole ton more work.
All that work would then increase item prices and people would complain about the prices.
The miniskirt craze in 3D is another one. Much easier to rig when the skirt never reaches the knees.
And this also explains the tendency to skin-tight slacks - much easier to rig (before dForce) to move naturally than loose, baggy pants.
Modeling is the easy part, it's the rigging and weight mapping that creates the issues
One thing to keep in mind that explainations can also be excuses. it is often also easier to get a non technical user to accept something when you put in terms of 'it won't work" for whatever reason. We have also seen examples of one PA doing something that another PA didn't or didn't know how to. Not everyone has the same skill sets or knowledge. There are usually limitations based on the issues DS would cause and thus create a need for a different style or workaround. I would also much rather see a PA say they honestly don't know how to do something than give a false reason or excuse why a certain feature isn't included.
It's also harder for users that have never done any modeling/rigging to understand the limitations when they want a feature that is next to impossible to include. Afterall, much of what makes all this mesh work together is the tech included in DS and not the model which is just a bunch of polygons and vertices with textures slapped on top of them
I solved the problem of unrealistic clothing several years ago: I do fantasy renders. In a fantasy universe, anything goes as long as you follow a consistent set of rules. These rules don't have to bear any resemblance to the laws of physics, chemistry and biology that prevail in our universe.
Cheers,
Alex.
https://www.daz3d.com/dforce-maid-outfit-for-genesis-8-female-s
https://www.daz3d.com/goth-maid-for-genesis-3-female-s
This is a thread about technical issues shaping what gets made, not about the economics (important as they are). Let's not turn it into another row over skimpwear please.
Yes, I know those. And about any other maid outfit, maid costume etc. that is available on DAZ, Rendo, ShareCG, Wilmap... and none of those seem to have a working (!) petticoat, like those in the Manga, which usually look like those that Rockabilly girls (used to) wear. Being made of several layers of cloth, bringing the skirt above it into a bell-like form.
I recently spent a couple of hours looking for a sexy manga maid dress/uniform and there was none that I found fitting. Mostly due to the non-existing petticoat
Sadly, those are both an utter pain to do with conforming because of pokethrough, and with dForce because of explosions.
Exactly. Even though they would be very sexy, it's way to complicated to get them to work. So it's easier to use texture zones to make it look like as if there was a petticoat beneath that skirt = easy solution, as can be seen by all the available maid costumes where it is done this way.
I am perfectly happy to accept, "It's hard to make this," as an excuse, even if it's an excuse. The shoulders thing, for example-- that bothered me for a long time. Realizing there's real challenges there makes me a lot more patient.
And yeah, I don't want this to be about the economics of skimpwear. I'm fine with skimpwear. But I think it's fascinating to learn that there's things that influence a decision to make skimpwear (or other Daz clothing quirks, like miniskirts or lack-of-petticoats) other than economics.
For example, I've always figured that (beyond economics) male clothing was less common simply because it's so much more _boring_ usually (in real life settings) than female clothing. Everybody knows that women have a more interesting section at the department store. How much can you possibly differentiate a shirt and pants? And I've wished for more elaborate fantasy clothing for men, but... now I'm wondering how much of it has to do ALSO with the way that men's clothing tends to not be miniskirts or skintight leggings, that it tends to have shoulders or straps, and that male shoulders can vary almost as much as female breasts... and stuff like that. So that making great looking men's clothing is _more challenging_ and thus (given economics) not worth it.
What PAs are looking for, with no beating around the bush, is what they can make faster in addition to how much similar things sell. It's a calculation and there's always bills to pay while working on our computers.
Examples: more sleeves, long skirts, harder the rigging part because you'll have to pay attention to get all your bends in order with corrective morphs and such, hence more time to develop. More details in the mesh equal more time in sculpting, additional time in rigging, more time in texturing. Sometimes people just need that back catalogue to work, to have more items in lower prices, but also how many times there have been outfits that had to be charged more due to complexity and detail, and customers said "too expensive for my pocket, will pass" or "will wait on this one for deep discount" - does it make it worth the time invested if it's gonna sell well only at 80% discount.
There is often the division in all PAs mind, do I want to make this better and charge more, or do I want to make this good enough and charge less for less time invested.
Other thing as stated above everything, is popularity. Ever since Daz Studio and Poser art became popular, females take the lead and that is plainly supply and demand. Even in modern popular anime females art (search for SakimiChan as the first example of popularity), girls get more popular in fantasy "invitive" clothing than wearing turtlenecks. It isn't just in 3D world, it's everywhere, traditional art, painting in photoshop, photography, red carpet, movies, gaming as well. Until demand changes, this will remain a trend.
Thanks, Valzheimer. Kind of what I was thinking about, yeah: there's multiple factors that go into making stuff, and every PA has their own niche -- some go with fast, cheap and high volume, some go for more elaborate outfits that clearly take a lot longer to make. And sometimes what contributes to making something take 'a lot longer' isn't always obvious to us as consumers. I was hoping to shed light on some of that.
OK, thread trimmed - please keep the discussion on the (we may hope) illuminating topic of what is harder to make as a consequence of the way the applications work.
Dreamfarmer, you should just buy what you want. Doing more than that will make life complicated.
Even with the dificulties in specific areas, the outfits currently around (especially that flight suit) makes for real easy and cool kitbashing. Just throw a bodysuit underneath to cover bare parts, then a piece from this and a piece from that and viola.
...what would be needed for that is a better more versatile system for layering clothing than we have whereby collision detection could be split up by body/clothing region. This is also a matter with Goth Lolita, "Alice" and Victorian styled dresses as well as they too often employ a petticoat underneath.
dForce already has this. It just doesn't work well at all.
...one disappointment is the lack of padded shoulders like were common for women's business wear and formal dresses in the 1940s and 50s. Very elegant style but one that is difficult to find in 3d clothing.