Is this the future of Studio? Not good.
Petercat
Posts: 2,321
Apparently, I'm not the only one still using an older version of Studio:
https://www.daz3d.com/forums/discussion/170391/daz-studio-won-t-close-will-crash-long-after-closing#latest
So, outside of G8 and related stuff, why would a PA make things that don't work in older versions of Studio?
I'm using 4.9.2.70, and the last three Predaton products cause a failure shutdown. Haven Park, Tree and Swing Park 5, and now Pergoda Venue 2. They work fine in 4.10, but fail in 4.9.2.70.
It's not even the whole scene, just the ground. If I just hide the ground, everything else will render without problems. Look at the images, with the Pergoda I was able to use a ground plane to good effect. With the tire swing, I'll have to use a morphing ground plane, or just add the props to another scene.
This is really a pity, as I love Predaton's products, but won't be buying any more to just return them. I've been wanting Haven Park for a long time, too. Drat.
But there's more - I thought DAZ had gotten away from encryption as a bad idea, but now some products are using encrypted scripts that 4.9.2.70 and older versions can't read. Scene Optimizer by V3Digitimes, Now Crowd Billboards by Riversoft Art... Why? Has someone been stealing scripts?
Riversoft even gave the scripts away for free with the elves collection. So why encrypt them?
It just feels like this whole thing is about trying to push people into using the newest Studio, but persuant to the above link and others, many people still prefer the older versions for various reasons, and are at risk of being frozen out. Ah, well, there are other places to spend money.
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Comments
Greetings,
Can't speak to the rest of it, but scripts have been encrypted for a long time, well before the DRM stuff got added, even.
At a guess, I'd say PA's want to use new features, because that makes their work distinct and pushing the capabilities of what looks good and can be done. The ground could be using a new skinning model, or it could be a texture that uses new features of the render engine. One way or another, if you're not okay upgrading, it's going to be harder to tell what works for you. And that's not really their fault; choosing not to upgrade (when it's free) is something you only do if you are comfortable losing out on new items. It's absolutely part of the cost of making that choice.
-- Morgan
...I never jump on board the moment a new general (not beta) release version comes out as often there are bugs that didn't occur in the previous beta.
I still have 4.9.4.122 installed and am also running the 4.10.123 beta alongside.
With all due respect, that discussion points at MAC users for the most part and it doesn't happen to most users. I know I haven't had any issues with crashing. As for the reasons behind newer versions, well that is pretty standard in the software world. it's in a PAs best interest to develop for the latest version of the app from the company they work for. To expect them to also develop for older versions is unreasonable IMO. I am far from happy I can't open most older saved scenes from 4.8 (PRE .DUF), but that is the way it goes I guess.
You should probablu change the title to problem with Haven Park in 4.9 instead. maybe someone can recommend a fix
I wasn't discussing MAC problems, just pointing out that there are many users still sticking with older versions of Studio, and the referenced discussion was a good example. And this has to do with more than just Haven Park.
I'm sticking with 4.9.2.70 because the newer versions render about 10% slower, and are slower to build a scene with. I have to create over 24 images each week, so speed is important. I also have other things to do with my life, and my time is valuable.
Maybe 5.0 will have a smoother workflow and faster render times, then I'll upgrade. But i'm just not into the newest shiny.
In the case of newer versions of Studio, choosing not to upgrade when it's free is something I do because I am uncomfortable losing out on speed and functionality. 4.10 just doesn't cut it from a production point of view.
Version 5.0 will require a recompile of plugins that will more than likely break everything you have. That's probably why the version numbers have been on the current increments.
Generally those product that has a minimum version on the product page, and if the dse has a version check for that version, then compatibility will be only to the version that it was encrypted. And no, PAs can't sit versions behind on a product (we're on version 4.10 with dforce), as some things that they use may have a bug fix that requires a particular version run. If the store requires us to be a particular version, that's were the PA has to be to submit products. If you choose to be at a lesser version, then you won't be able to use certain products.
Thank you for this. For the record, I'm not against newer versions of software. I'll use whatever works best for my needs.
The only need that I have that is worse with 4.10 is the need for speed. But that's a major need.
In every other way, 4.10 is superior to 4.9 - it's just slower.
I'm on 4.10, and Tree & Swing crashes pretty consistently for me. I think it's the trees being memory intensive, but since I didn't have time to test in depth, I just kind of went "meh, got it for free, I'll figure it out when I have time."
Can you please explain why the scripts are encrypted? What does it add to the product in terms of usability or just value?
It adds to the product some protection for the vendors that their work won't be copied, reverse engineered, and stolen so that they can make a living and continue making new products.
...so what does this mean for Carrara users? Will these items also crash?
This is why I was so against encryption when it was first mentioned.
As mentioned earlier the encryption of scripts is completely unrelated to the encryption introduced in 4.9 for other DS facing files (which has been effectively abandoned). These are DS scripts and would never work in Carrara whether they were encrypted or not.
Encrypting scripts and code is something every business or person **selling** a script does. This is software business 101 not DRM. It doesn't matter if it's in DS or a program to add ringtones to a phone. You protect your code if you're going to distribute it.
Both encrypted (.dse) and compressed (.dsb) scripts are version-tagged and will not run in older versions of DS. ASCII scripts (.dsa) do get the version added on save but, presumably because they are editable in another applications, it isn't used as an execution limitation. As said above, encrypted scripts are not new - they are also not tied to your account, even the original author can't read an encrypted script, they are just used to protect the code from being copied by anyone else.
Carrara doesn't support Studio scripts, so what didn't work still doesn't.
Encrypted sets (that you must load via Connect) have also never worked in Carrara. So no change there.
As regards loading contemporary enviros and - to some extent - props. The usual caveats still apply: Instances will just be ignored. Normal maps & translucency maps need to be reapplied to shaders. Shaders will often need tweaking for values. PBR metals will need "a lot of work". Layered shaders will need a lot of work. No HD, no geografts.
Attached is Predatron's recent swing set, rendered in Carrara exactly as it loaded (I just added a sky). You can see the instances are missing (although they are easy enough to recreate)
Has it? I sure hope so, but no new ones only mean no ones have been released; what time frame should we apply to make the term 'effectively abandoned' believeable? An announcement would be good.
Personally, encrypting scripts is understandable; the script code is very verbose, so there is a lot, but even so, unencrypted means folks can not only learn from what has been done, but steal and resell in their own products or release as freebies. Very disheartening to PAs.
What I meant by "effectively abandoned" is there are currently no encrypted items in the store whatsoever, so no way anyone can be affected by this using current products. Naturally that could change if they chose to introduce a bunch of encrypted new releases tomorrow.
Ditto. I wait for a few weeks or longer before I update.
I understood what you meant, was just quibbling over the effectively really.
I also tend to wait; I've just moved to version 10 release (less than two weeks ago). I can also revert if need be if I find something I don't like.
Render times are linked to the current NVIDIA Iray version, so, that is something DAZ developers can't control, they just (and must) adopt newer versions of the Iray renderer to incorporate new features and error corrections.
In the upcoming versions you'll get a speed upgrade (and noise reduction) that'll make you very happy.
...not enough for those stuck with CPU rendering though. Iray is optimised for GPU based rendering. 3DL for CPU rendering which is why I have moved back to the latter.
I have to disagree with the blanket assertion. I ran a fairly complex scene with things that would grind 3DL to a slow grind and CPU iray ran it faster. Now if you're running fairly simple scenes, there may be a case, but rendering the same complex scenes, even CPU Iray renders it faster.
Or if you're like me, and can't do without proper bounce light. AFAICT there still aren't really any options for it beyond the fairly glacially slow uberenvironment... and then you have to take extra care with material settings for things like hair if you want it to finish within in a week (and hey, no pausing your render either).
I always find all the comments about 3delight being so much faster pretty funny considering before Iray I had switched over to rendering in Blender and pretty much manually setting up every material because it was still faster for me than rendering in 3delight
And I was surprised when I ran a scene using CPU with a bunch of tree's and grass and hair and it finished in less than an hour and I remember the days where I had to do about 15-20 promos using 3DL and I basically could only do two per day because it would grind to a halt on those things, so I could render when I worked all day at the office. Running the same type of renders, saying 3DL is faster is just not true.
It all depends. 3Delight is faster than it used to be, especially if you use progressive (the raytracer had a bunch of optimizations a few years ago). You can get some speed gains by reducing textures. Some default settings are higher than they need to be. Some folks using Iray use the wrong settings or are just going about things wrong so it makes it slow. Sometimes it's the default settings, or the mistaken thinking that you have to run it a long time to get the image to converge which generally is not needed. Some folks say it's slow because they can only use Iray in CPU mode since they overload their scene and it gets dumped to CPU, or they don't have an Nvidia card.
Iray in cpu mode is no slower than 3dl.
And saying it’s optimized for higher quality images doesn’t mean much: default light path in 3dl is 1, unlimited in Iray. You can trivially change those numbers.
There are certain shortcuts you can’t do in Iray, but that only matters for the very most limited and flat looking images.
Also, ‘optimized for gpu’ is factually untrue, unless I’m missing something; there are no sacrifices made to how Iray renders that preferentially improves GPU over CPU.
That it CAN use GPU and run much faster has absolutely no negative impact on how it runs in CPU.
Ergo, it is in no way optimized for GPU.