dear PAs with products dforce labeled
Ruphuss
Posts: 2,631
in The Commons
i bought this one
https://www.daz3d.com/dforce-free-spirit-outfit-for-genesis-8-female-s
works fine with draping a still render
and it explodes with default settings when animated with a simple walking animation
so dear PAs pls check your products being animatable with dforce
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Comments
With dynamics you need to be vary careful about annimations. all it takes is one mesh intersection and "KABOOM!!!" regradless of how well designed the dForce item is.
You will need something like KeyMate and GraphMate to adjust annimations where things like hands brush through the hips, or knees clip each other as they move back and forth.
if its a freebie no problem
Unfortunately dForce just isn't ready for realistic human animation. A possible workaround is to use the geometry editor to make certain parts of the figure dynamic (underarms and adjacent sides of the torso) and place a transparent primitive like a sphere or cylinder that squishes those parts out of the way, but as long as those parts aren't visible in the animation. Or you can make those areas of the clothing item non-dynamic.
or use a morph to separate the flesh. However, I think it's unfair to cite this as evidence that dForce is not ready for animation - simulating when fabric gets caught between touching or, worse, penetrating bits of mesh is a long-standing issue for all systems.
IMO, DAZ should drop the dForce label as part of the product name. Indicating it as dForce-ready/compliant in the item description should be enough. Calling it "dforce" only makes customers have higher expectations when it comes to cloth sims. When dForce was officially released as part of the public build, my first attempt resulted in an explosion with a dforce-ready dress using a simple pose. I never tried the beta before, ended up extremely disappointed with my purchase, and learned to do dforce settings on old clothes on my own. This is the main reason why I rarely buy "dforce" items (Second reason is because they're priced higher than usual.)
Indeed it is. There's just not much one can do when fabric gets pinched under or between a body part like the armpit, crotch, etc. There's no where for it to move. Happens in Poser's cloth room as well.
Laurie
My experience is that Dynamic clothing needs to have
been MODELED as a dynamic peice from the begining
yes you have to make sure your animation does not have intersecting
figure body parts.
However taking something that was originally built as a conformer
where care was not taken( or needed frankly), to insure none of the clothing has intersecting
faces is likely your problem.
This becomes excacerbated when the simulation engine has to also calculate the Z directional impact force
of the figure mesh moving forward/backward along with the -Y axis force of gravity.
Also consider that most PA's do not animate and would not have thought to test the clothing with a basic walk cycle
to say nothing of something really dynamic like a martial arts fight etc.
Well when I walk when one of my hands swings too close to my legs they bounce off it. Animation systems should have built in ragdoll style dynamics so that an animation of one biped can easily and correctly be retargeted to another biped if the skeletons are the (nearly the) same. Maybe have a check box - terse animation playback or fudged ragdoll adjusted dynamic animation playback. I guess it'll come, eventually.
I always thought this was what the aniblocks were for. Am I incorrect?
Aniblocks are an easy way to chain together annimations, complete with the ability to "sub-track" parts of the figure.
Aniblocks have no way of telling if your character's body parts are clipping anything.
how about labeling dforce products as animatable or just for stills dear PAs or Mr and Mrs Daz?
the selling categorie is still combining animation and poses which makes it hard to see only animations
test it by doing a search "animation"
but thats another story
it's nott hat sme items won't work with aniamtion - it's that an aniamtion gives far more chnaces for physically impossible arrangements to arise and cause the simulation to explode. The limitation is, if this is the problem, the animation not the dForce item.
so maybe something like tested with ......animation
a standard walking animation should work
you are writing quick Richard do you ?
Yes, you would think so
But how "clean" was your "walking animation" ? Some types of "walking animations" have lots of stutter, or hands going through legs etc.. not very good animations to begin with
The clothing in the 1st post doesn't look overly complex, you would assume it would work if your animation was "good"
Body parts to do not pass through each other with ragoll
simulation software but the effect is gobal
and supercedes any keyframes you may have controlling the walk cycle
that were keeping the person from falling under gravity.
I have not seen Ruphus's animation
However not having hands pass through hips/thighs is something
easily acheived and frankly expected wether you are simulating
dynamic cloth or not.
Not sure if the DAZ site still block the vimeo site completely
But here is one of my old old videos of the poser ragdoll & rigid body
solver optional plugin reacting with poser aged but stable cloth engine.
For example, the default bundled G8F walk aniblock has geometry intersections. That's a nightmare situation for dforce (or any cloth sim software for that matter), a nice setup for BOOM!
I 100% agree with wolf359: "However not having hands pass through hips/thighs is something
easily acheived and frankly expected wether you are simulating
dynamic cloth or not."
That's an easy fix and just lazy IMO on Daz3D's end
While a sim is running, you can clearly see poke-through across several frames. If you manually advance the frames, you don't see it, because the engine has time to recalculate the preview.
However, for the walk animation where the thumb passes through the leg, that's always there, whether you step through the frames or not. There's no way in Norway I'd have let that animation go out the door and put a price tag on it.
Yeah it's an easy fix with GraphMate, but I don't see it in my Product Library, and I don't see "Free" where the price is for GraphMate. Fix your own animation before you try to sell it. It's an easy fix with GraphMate. See that? That's called a two-way street.
And yes, physics simulations have always been frought with explosions when it encounters the "two objects cannot occupy the same space at the same time" issue that is programmed into the physics engine. It's been that way throughout the history of computer-based physics simulations of dynamic materials.
Because someone keeps programming that into the physics engines.
And no one yet has figured out that the way to prevent it is to NOT tell the engine that two objects cannot occupy the same space at the same time.
And yes, please separate Poses from Animations in the store. When I look for animations, I am not looking for poses, I'm looking for animations.
How would you do that? Isn't the very basis for collision that two things cannot occupy the same space? How else would there be collision in the first place.
The animation that's used in the example is one of the ones that Daz added to the free stuff that comes with Daz Studio a couple of months ago. (So, no they did not put a price on it.)
Yes, the thumb is the free one that comes with essentials, and that's the reason for posting it. My point is you'd expect Daz3D would have done a better job of QC on it, because people would probably be using that one for a "G8F walk" and dforce testing with some frequency. I would have figured they'd want fewer complaints about "dforce explosions" , and intersections are definitely one of the common causes
Getting a bit off topic here, but other cloth sim software tend not to explode as frequently, or as magnificently (as in whole garment explodes instead of some small portion distorts, or small poke through). Small penetrations/distortions are more acceptable as they can be fixed easily in a PLA mesh. You can pull a few vertices/faces over a few frames, no problem, animation is salvaged. But it's almost impossible to fix a completely exploded mesh.
Marvelous Designer folks have apparently figured that one out. When figure parts intersect, that part of the clothing simply goes into the figure so no clothing explosions there. The effect is similar to what smoothing modifier does in DS when parts intersect. One can force parts of the clothing to explode in MD (with pushing and pulling) but after forcing it, clothing reverts to normal, proper state, it doesnt explode further. So..its possible.
Marvelous designer is also a lot more expensive ($490 one time or $300 per year subscription) than the free software that Daz3D provides.
Marvelous designer has also been doing dynamic cloth simulation for over 4 years (The oldest video on their youtube is 4 years old). They also have a profesional grade sister software that uses the same simulation engine.
It really is not fair to compare a brand new free cloth simulation engine to a mature industry level simulation engine.
It's pretty fair to point out their capabilities to someone who questions whether it's possible to have intersections without irreparable explosions though.
I have never had a poser cloth sim completely "explode"
since its introduction in poser 5 well over a decade ago.
Poser just hangs sometimes indefinately waiting for a mercial force
quit or even brute forces it way past the intersecting bit after a long hang
The same with Optitex
and Cinema4d Cloth engine.
If you have the ability to bake to morphs as I do with Optitex.
or cache the cloth sim to a data file as in C4D
you could scroll through and find the last frame before the snag
make the fixes and continue on.