Is G3 the new V4 ?
daveso
Posts: 7,918
in The Commons
Victoria 4 was introduced in 2006 with V 4.2 in 2008. That is longevity. Obviously G3 didn't last long, as G8 is already released. Since 2011, there is a new genesis every 2 years. It appears that right now G3 has the most products and support by vendors/PAs, and from what I've read G8 isn't really a big hit ... at least not yet.
thoughts ...
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V4 lasted so long because she was the last Poser native female from Daz. Support from a lot of Poser users has kept her around. Genesis and Genesis 2 don't have anything to cause people to start supporting them.
I use Genesis 1, it has everything I need.
There does seem to be something about G3F, though. At Renderosity, support for Genesis and Genesis 2 was always relatively limited, with lots of vendors apparently preferring to stick with making stuff for V4 and M4. However, there's a ton of stuff for Genesis 3 (mostly G3F).
On the other hand, I'm seeing a lot of G8F stuff now as well. I suspect that the crucial factor may have been Iray. So long as DAZ Studio was just a less-popular competitor to Poser, creators were happy to stick with the Poser-friendly V4 and M4 (rather than the more awkward Genesis and Genesis 2). But adding Iray to DAZ Studio may have drawn a critical mass of users over to DAZ Studio, and made it worthwhile supporting the newer DAZ generations.
This is speculation, not based on hard numbers or facts, but it's my best guess as to what might be happening.
i didn't come back to DS until G2F was launched, big improvements over Genesis, then came G3, even better to use, with a simplified set of surfaces, it has its lil quirks, but Genesis 3 was
really nice to work with, now we have the G8 series, another improvement. with going back to a single 'for all' set of UVs, this makes it easier for creators and customers.i believe this will result in more PA's creating products for each new 'figure'
please don't ask me for specific changes etc, because leaving out the technical stuff, each change/update is very subjective, what one person thinks is an inprovement, someone else will disagree.
I feel G3 was the closest we've come to a successor for V4's throne, based on how much product was released for her in other marketplaces and the steady drop in V4 new releases. But I doubt we'll ever see another figure with V4's longevity due to the circumstances that kept her popular/necessary for so long.
I can only speak for myself, but I find myself continuing to use G3 even though I like G8. If I want to use G3 content, it's just easier to use G3.
I decked out the G3F with a ton of morphs, skinbuilder, Wear them all, etc. I spent the two years since her release shopping for her and bought a ton of V4 content and learned to fit shoes and long dresses and skirts and make them work on G3F. I am not ready to go do the same for G8F all over again with no time to really enjoy what I have now. Besides I totally ignored the G3M and I'd rather work on decking him out and having a working decked out pair of G3s. I may end up waiting for V9 or V10 if I am happy with G3 for awhile.
Even the time between V4 and Genesis 1 had been rather long compared to later figures, probably because Daz needed the time to develop all the tech behind Genesis system.
G3 covers really an impressive wide range of things thanks to the PA and daz that did so many specific things that can work together and cover even more fields of creativity. Fantasy, sci-fi, casual, etc... even monsters, aliens, and so on... But it is still on the expensive side of the daz market place. I hope it'll become cheaper soon as I plan to buy more and more G3 things.
In the meantime, I'm seeking the good deals on G1/G2 that have too a lot of nice things....that can fit to G3! And the good news is that you even have some tools to back use G3 things on G1! (and G2) (and of course use G1/G2 on G3)
All in All, I'm not close to jump on the G8 train
G8F Victoria was stated to have outsold any prior versions of Victoria, including V4, on introduction day, if I remember the post in the forums by a hefty percentage so from a business perspective G8 has been a hit.
Cumulatively I have no ideal for Victoria 8 sales stand in relation to V4 and other older figures sales as those are artificially inflated by giveaways (one could have gotten Victoria 7 free this past weekend, I had gotten her free though last year around the same time of year). You can be almost sure V8 has sold less total numbers than V4 and you can probably guess that V4 also has still outsold all the other Victorias from the Genesis lines. Eventually though, a new Victoria will technically have so many improvements that generation will outtotal V4. V4 is sort of a no-go for gaming development for example. It requires much more work than later generations of Victoria.
G8 is really fresh and warm right out of the stove. Too earley too tell. I think it's going well for G8. I wouldn't like to have that old V4 stagnancy happening again.
They also abandoned Triax with G3. Dual quaternion is not a proprietary rigging system, and one that's used in the game industry.
This was happening because of facial bones. The data amount on all Triax bones on G3 was told to be too much. Honestley I don't miss it. G3 and G8 have a JCM system, that make limb bending look way better than G2's Triax bones system.
G2 was a necessary upgrade because of many new characters gaining HD. G3 had not just this, but Iray compatibility from the start and the new vampiric face morphs were what made it critical for me, as I do a lot of vampirism-themed art.
G8? There just isn't anything as revolutionary. Some people say the face is easier to give expressions to, but I've had no real problem with G3's abilities for that. So, I just haven't needed to fashion any original characters in G8, which means any G8-only clothing, poses or props are fairly unlikely to gain a sale from me. There have been a small handful of two or three things I might have got, but mostly in order to combine with my existing G3 morphs, footwear and so on, which wouldn't be possible.
Of course, that makes it easier on my financial situation. :)
The only thing which would have made a difference, might have been if Daz made the evolution to bundling characters with their HD morphs, but they show no sign of doing that, meaning that G3 caters for all of my existing requirements.
...working on an older system, I tend to avoid anything HD so I am glad it is an add on.
I think it has, I've converted many of my old V3/V4 skins and morphs, no more horrid bends, wears V4 clothing with no problems. G3 is everything I wanted V4 to be but could never quite achieve..having said that I still have a soft spot for V4, something about her look. G8 is a stunning model but I just haven't embraced her as readily as I did G3.
That's a problem I'm having with G8, the tweaking whereas there is none or very little to use old and much loved content with G3
I've not had any trouble at all using G3 content on G8. In fact G8 comes with clones for G1, G2, and G3, so hair and clothing fit to G8 from those generations pretty easily. There has also already been two free products (and a couple of paid ones) that let you easily use G3 poses for G8. With G8's improvements, I see no need to stick to G3. I use both now. :)
With the passing of Ralf (creator of GenX) and the absence of Valzheimer (maker of Wear Them All), Genesis 8 lacks the full compatibility to which I've grown accustomed. Having transferred over a thousand characters from previous generations to Genesis 3, I have quick-dial variations available that would require many weeks to convert in order to get them into a generation (G8) that is far less compatible with my huge wardrobe (which is 30-40% V4).
However, I have been purchasing and playing with the Genesis 8 Daz core characters, Raiya's/Saiyaness' releases, non-beauty contestant females, and most males and morph packs in case Daz does an update of their animation engine that prefers G8. So, I'm always pleased to see characters and hairs for both generations. I hope that will continue for at least another year. But we shall not see another five year run like V4 had, unless Daz tanks, of course.
For me, Genesis 3 Female is the new Aiko3. I never got into V4 or V5. G2F drew me away from Aiko3 finally after 9 years but G3F is what I prefer working with, partially due to the fact that it is iray supported out of the box.
a lot of very interesting comments ...
What happened to Valzheimer?
BTW, Redz and SingularBlues have a thread on transferring G3 characters to G8: https://www.daz3d.com/forums/discussion/comment/2707576/#Comment_2707576
And mtl1 has a great tutorial on creating clones for G8: https://www.daz3d.com/forums/discussion/193296/freebie-how-to-create-a-v4-clone-and-transfer-other-figures-for-g8f
Iray has really changed Daz in all sorts of ways. There is no denying it. If Genesis 2 had started out with Iray, then I think it would have been same way. Iray is a double edged sword in some ways, but as Nvidia dominates its market and as GPUs get ever more powerful, Iray is starting to become more possible for more people. That is a big deal. Software can only sell to the people who can use it on their hardware. And as Iray takes over, people are finally leaving V4 behind (even though converting to Iray is pretty easy in most cases, but people always will choose the easier out of the box toys first.)
Then you have the constant sales. I guess Daz has always done some, but in the past couple years the sales are just non stop. There's always something on sale, and some of them are very steep. It seems pretty clear the Steam Sale strategy is working for them. As it has for Steam, as Steam Sales are a meme unto themselves. With so much stuff practically being given away at times, it is hard not to buy into it.
The result of all this is that I believe the user base for Daz Studio is larger than ever before. From there it is a simple numbers game. With more users you get a higher volume of sales. So I believe it is really quite easy for new G8 models to hit these milestones that Daz claims them to, and for Genesis 3 to be so popular.
Thanks, Divamakeup, for the V4 link. I've followed the other thread since June 15, but with the hiccups you and other people were having a few months back, I decided not to try to do a mass morph conversion that would overflow my hard drive and possibly cause issues that I might never be able to sort out. Last time I checked, Valzheimer had not decided when or if she will do a G8 version of Wear Them All. With Daz stealing most of the thunder (and sales) by providing Genesis 1, 2, & 3 clones, the only thing missing is Generation 3 and 4, which those who really want it will roll their own clones and make it work. So, perhaps she may not bother at all.
I do highly populated scenes, and kitbashing for one G8F is too time-consuming presently to justify a complete shift. Since there are no memory gains to be had by solely using Genesis 8, I've decided to continue using Genesis 3 for everything except those things that only Genesis 8 can do until such time as Daz (or some other circumstances) require me to.
That sounds fair. :) As long as what you're using meets your needs, that's the way to go!
Personally I'm aiming for as much realism as I can so I want to try and work with the generation that has advanced the farthest. With G8's advanced bends and facial expressions I really enjoy working with this new generation. However I'm still getting great results with G3, so I can't blame you for not wanting to switch. :) Some of my favorite characters are G3s and until they figure out how to transfer HD morphs between generations, there will always be room in my renders for some of my favorite HD G3 characters (even if I mainly use G8).
Thank you for the information on Valzheimer. I hope we see her back and creating great G8 content soon. :)
...yeah, I find G3 to be pretty suitable for my needs. I have a number of morph, shaping, and skin resoruce kits along with Gen-X that make the figure extremely versatile. The downside, now most of new figure/character related content releases are for G8.
You can always mix. :) I find that as long as you adjust the character's shader/skin settings you can incorperate multiple generations of figures in your scene and have it look pretty natural (as long as you're not working with extreme poses with the older figures -as those tend to show the character's age more, imo).
HD morphs! Yes, I scored most of the best ones (most definition) for Genesis 3 during sales over the past year, and I have no intention of surrendering that level of detail, especially since Daz seems to be taking their own sweet time releasing them for Genesis 8. Once I found out how necessary they were for closeups, I bought them whenever they dipped below $12 (and I happened to have the funds).
I stayed mostly loyal to Genesis 1 throughout its first two sequels. The main selling point for me was having male, female, and child shapes all built into the same base figure. Even during the M4/V4 era, the add-ons that enabled transgender morphing were the most important for me. Given how dramatically the 4th-generation meshes could be morphed, I couldn't understand why Daz maintained two separate base figures in the first place. It would've been far more efficient and convenient to just have one combined M4/V4 base figure.
That's why it was really frustrating to see Daz finally take the hint with Genesis 1 only to drop it like a hot potato just one generation later, and for what I at least consider to be a rather silly reason. Apparently, as I understand it, too many clothing developers complained about having to fit their items with the extra resolution required for a female chest even when the items in question were decidedly intended for male characters. First of all, there's certainly no guarantee that someone somewhere isn't going to want to use a male clothing item on a cross-dressing female character. Second of all, I suspect that some subdivision trickery could've solved that problem. But alas, it was not to be.
The only reason I've fully adopted Genesis 8 is because of the legacy cloning morphs, automated re-rigging capabilities, and the fact that the head and neck of G8M and G8F are essentially genderbent versions of each other with the same number of polygons/vertices. These three factors enable me to make each base figure morph into the opposite gender and transfer face morphs between them much more easily than I ever could before.
The celebrity morphs for G8M that I've recently released were actually sculpted on a masculinized G8F base and then transferred to G8M as a final step. Heck, the only reason I even made that transfer at all was so that others who don't use transgender morphing could use my morphs straight out of the proverbial box. If they were just for me, I would've just stuck with my masculinized G8F.
Also, G8F is currently the only 8th-generation figure for which I have ample merchant resource morphs to play around with, and if nothing else, transgender morphing has saved me the cost of the corresponding G8M merchant resources.
Wow! That escalated quickly. Okay, rant over. It's a long shot, but here's to hoping that the 9th generation brings back transgender and maybe even adult/child morphing built into the base figure by default.