Possible Issue with G8F Characters?
fastbike1
Posts: 4,078
I have been a long time fan of Lyoness' products, but I think I'm seeing a consistent issue w/ a number of the G8F characters. The issue is an odd deforamtion of the tops around the breasts whenever I fit a T short, camisole, tank top etc. At any rate, I get this effect on LY Arden, LY Ariah, LY Camille, and LY Zara. I don't see it on LY Moxie Sparks. I haven't seen it on several other G8F including characters from FWSA, P3D, Godin, Raiya, etc. Basically any other G8F / V8 / O8 / S8 characters or vendors.
The effect has shown up on clothing from OOT, Fisty&Darc, and others. It seems to impact clothing article that have some level of wrinkling or folding around the breasts. I don't see it on armor, lingerie or swimwear provided there is no wrinkling, creasing, folding etc below the breasts.
Can anyone else reproduce this? I have not seen this effect on other characters / clothes.
Here's a screen shot. The four characters from the left are Lyoness' ladies.
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Comments
It's happening on the two right characters also, just not as severely. This looks like it may be scaling-related.
you need to make sure you have smoothing on. the custom sculpts on the breasts are the reason for the conform issue.
so I went and checked myself. I lined up all my current girls from G8 and put them in an outfit made for G8. I am not having the same issues you are. To me that means that it's more of an autofit issue.
It's not an LY thing, it seems to be a custom breasts morph thing, as LY said, as I've seen the same thing with quite a few other characters too. For instance here's one of several characters I have that has the issue, BD Harlow:
But it's an easy fix, just add a smoothing modifier to her shirt and turn up the Smoothing Iterations:
The problem IS Autofit, not Lyoness' characters. From what I've seen, Autofit just doesn't handle breasts, crotches or glutes very well, most likely due to how tight the topography in those areas tend to be.
+1
I use smoothing to help with this
How is it an autofit issue if it happens with clothing made for that figure line? Or am I missunderstanding what autofit means?
Keep in mind that if the clothing does not have a fit for that exact character, it uses the generic autofit for G8F. This can cause issues with non-default shape breasts, glutes and crotches because the cloths need to move around those areas and stretch the cloth across the sharp bends. Fof that to happen there needs to be a custom morph designed for that clothing item.
Ohhh Ok, so autofit isn't just a cross-generation thing. It's a thing for basically every character except the very few DO characters that have some clothing that have "supported shapes" for them. TIL
Oops wrong word....
Autofit is for cross dressing between different base figures.
Autofollow is for automatic morph generation when there are no built in morphs for that shape. My description of how it works is correct, just used the wrong name.
I use SY breast helper for all my breast issues
https://www.daz3d.com/sy-clothing-breast-helper-genesis-8-female
Just so we're all clear, the oufit in my screen capture is Blooming for G8F by Fisty and Darc, so the issue is auto follow, not autofit.
I wasn't sure because I can also generate the same type of image that Lyoness showed (perfect fits for her characters) if I use a leotard, swimsuit, armor etc. I thought I was clear about the conditions and limits I tested.
Thanks to the forum, I have a solution.
So what is the solution? Smoothing modifier is not a solution, it's a crutch to keep from fixing a problem. Personally I don't feel a smoothing modifier should ever be applied to a finished clothing item from any vendor. That it should only be used at user level if needed only. I have items in the past that did not fit correctly when loaded/fitted and they already had smoothing enabled, so there was nothing I could do to fix the situation.
I never use any body morph from a vendor or DAZ, so this issue will likel plague me everytime once I jump on the G8 bandwagon
Maybe a push modifier applied to the clothing at .10 percent. I have the same issue with male characters. If the character has fitness applied or hd then stuff seems to fit badly,
The only fix is to model clothing that fits very close to the skin around the breasts, then it works pretty well. But then the only things in the store would be super clingy things or bras. >or< buy ever single character ever released and make custom fit morph for them. I would quickly be evicted from my appartment. I knew this set would have issues with breasts because it's not clingy, I included a whole slew of adjustment morphs and designed the mesh so it can handle a rediculous level of smoothing.. like literally, you can crank it up to 30 and it doesn't complain.
So.. dial up a character, raise the smoothing itterations until it looks good, it might cause a bit of poke-through in other places but don't worry abotu those right now. Go to edit-figure-geometry-bake smoothed morphs, only checkmark the body morph (FBM) of the character you're having issues with. Any poke-through you had will get worse. Turn the smoothing back down to normal. Use the adjustment morphs to fix the pokethrough.
You can export the shirt, turn the adjustment off, load the obj back in and overwrite the FBM, then save it.. but that's higher level stuff.
I picked an outfit by a vendor at the other brokerage, I wanted to show that it isn't a common issue to have a lot of roughness around the breasts. When there is, using smoothing is usually sufficient to blend it out.
I did not understand there to be any limits or conditions to your test. Honestly, it came accross as a blanket statement that my girls do not fit into clothes. Based upon that impression, I set up my own test with a new Lilflame outfit from the other brokerage. I felt that it was important to demonstrate that your issues were not universal.
It is easy enough to set up an image with my characters dressed in tshirts, tank tops, dresses or whatever... in general I feel that bodysuits often have a hard time getting all the settings to the breast area to align since it covers neck through belly button. They are more challenging to fit than you give them credit for.
I try very hard to create unique body shapes that are not simply dialed up morphs. This leads to auto-follow having to work a bit harder on my bodies. Since I use my characters in art and promos, your critique came as quite a shock, and I have felt that I needed to defend my work. I have not had this kind of issue with my girls overall. If I had, I would have made changes to my production.
I’ve always kind of wondered why there is no morph for the body for characters who are wearing clothing that makes the body a bit smoother and clothing hang better .... it may not work where the body is visible but it does seem clothing might fit better that way
As a general rule of thumb, this is how it works:
Autofit items: If its not intended for that figure line, its going to have probs. It might get you by, but its not going to be perfect. This is one of the reasons why you see full conversions of certain outfits, rather than support added to the outfit to work on both figures.
Reg items: If breasts dont fit, its because either A: the clothing item does not support the breasts properly, or B: The character's body is fully custom, and thereby cannot fit without a specific morph made in that clothing item.
Also, Adjustment morphs can help (if those are included in the clothing) as well as smoothing (if not at the default 2, then increase the numeric dial on smoothing incrementally) But in this case, its because the shirt is loose.... and DS has a tendency to suck the breasts up into the underboob (even when you rig to that figure, it does this) It has to be corrected with custom morphs in teh clothing that make it fit properly.
That is to no fault of any character maker... no fault to any clothing maker. Just the nature of the beast... sometimes, stuff doesnt work out the way you want it to, when u use them in tandem. For those situations... ZBrush.... or Dformers are your friend.
This is what projection morphs are for. No one makes projection morphs for their characters though.
Another awesome solution for fitting garments flawlessly to any body shape you want to use is to apply the dForce Modifier and make it dynamic, then use a dForce Modifier Weight Node in the following manner:
Apply the map for Influence Weights, select all garment geometry and fill weight to 10% (or there-abouts), now deselect all poly's and switch to weight map brush to paint a stronger weight on problem areas. You can use poly selection to fill areas more rapidly as well.
Set Simulation Settings to: Frames to Simulate/Animated (Use Timeline Play Range), leave figure at default shape on frame 0, slide over to frame 30 and dial up your morph shape. Make sure frame 0 is at default shape (sometimes it sets morphed shape from frame 30 at frame 0 so just zero that morph at frame 0 again)
I used Hinata Dress and set Bending Stiffness to 0.15 on all surfaces, gave the skirts a little more length by setting Expansion/Contraction to 110% and ran the sim. You can see the difference in the images below.
+1
+1
To date, projection morphs have not been needed or part of the character making assets. I will gladly look into them
What I would like to know, @Lyoness, is Who Are All These Females? I recognize four of them, and I looked in your store for the others, but I seem to be missing a few.
Thanks, @Fisty, you sold your Blooming Outfit to me with that notice of what you put into it. Now, would you please explain the quoted section above, as in: What exactly is accomplished by this? Any and all elaboration is welcome.
Thanks, @Aave Nainen, for that tutorial.
No, they're not needed. They're just useful for avoiding the shrink-wrapping effect.
Smoothing itterations basically iron out lumps and take the mesh back to its original state (if it's modeled to handle it, it can do weird things sometimes) if its set to base shape matching. If it's set to generic then it smooths out lumps in just an averaging type way (that will also iron out modeled in details like edge trim so not always good to use) How high you set those itterations determines how strong the effect is.. that's why you get some pokethrough a lot if times when you set it really high, base G8F has about size C breasts and if the morph you're fitting the clothing to has DD's the smoothing is effectively ironing out lumps but it's also making that breast size smaller (thus the breasts out, breasts wider, breasts larger, etc adjustment morphs to make them bigger again). The collision itterations do just that, that's the part that gets rid of minor poke-though, lower seems to work better most of the time like 1-3, past that it can cause issues with knees and armpits and cause exploading mesh. By baking the smoothed morph you get to turn the smoothing back down to normal and not have to wait 10 seconds for it to calculate anytime you change the slightest thing, cause that gets annoying. It's a very handy tool for making fit morphs, most of them in the Blooming outfit were made that way, it gives better results than trying to smoothing things out manually in a modeling progam. Some of them I just baked the smoothed morph and that was great, most of them I also did touchups afterwards (especially if I needed to use very high smoothing) but it's still way easier and ends up cleaner than doing it from scratch.
right to left:
Arden, Ariah, Camille, Kumiko, Moxie Sparks, Zara
@Lyoness "your critique came as quite a shock, and I have felt that I needed to defend my work."
How was this "It seems to impact clothing article that have some level of wrinkling or folding around the breasts. I don't see it on armor, lingerie or swimwear provided there is no wrinkling, creasing, folding etc below the breasts" a blanket condemnation that your girls don't fit into clothes?
I tried to be very clear up front that I have lots of your characters and products and that this was the only time I have had problems. I also tried to be very clear that the problem was limited to specific types of clothing. I included other vendors figures to make sure I didn't have some change to my setup. I specifically talked about G8F because I haven't seen this before.
My OP was lengthy because I didn't want this to be taken as a blanket condemnation and that I had done quite of bit of testing to satisfy myself that my setup hadn't changed and that I had determined that the problem was limited in scope and that I was looking for a solution. If you get the time please re-read my OP and tell me if you still think it was an attack.
FWIW, the only one of your G8F ladies that I don't have is Kumiko.
She probably felt bad that you singled out her characters when this happens to almost every custom female character, even the ones in the screenshot that you were showing as controls.
I think it might be the title that makes it feel like an attack. As it seams it's actually an issue with autofollow and all characters with certain types of custom sculpted breasts - usually larger breasts that where custom sculpted. I have quite a few characters that weren't made by LY that also have the issue you identified - which again, isn't really an issue with the character but rather the way that autofollow reacts to certain custom morphs in the breast area. While the title still says "possible issue with Lyoness' characters" - which singles out a single PA needlessly and might make people think twice about purchasing from them. I know that wasn't your intention, of course. :) I'm just pointing out how it might feel a bit like an attack, even though unintentional. :)
When I read it, I saw enough tentative words in the phrases that it definitely left open the possibility of it not being just Lyonness characters, or not them at all. "Possible" being glaringly clear that it's not a sure thing. They stated their exact experience-who they haven't seen it on, and clothing on which they have seen it. The OP was asking folks to help verify if there was even a problem. But I can certainly understand if I were a vendor, I wouldn't want that title glaring across the forums. Instead of negative words, next time perhaps Can You Help Me With Lyoness Blah Blah Blah. And @lyoness your work speaks for itself.
Even if you hadn't come to the thread to defend it, you're golden. (And thanks to the other vendors who took time to help.)
It definitely is the title saying "Possible Issue w/ Lyoness' G8F Characters?" It's very agressive sounding and calls me out by name. A lot of people won't bother reading the rest of your post, they just read the title and say to themselves... Oh, her characters have problems. As a PA, I really hate that. If the title had been "Possible Issue w/ G8F Characters?" and used mine as an example... I would not have so attacked.
As far as the discussion goes, I don't mind that at all.
The OP could edit the title and take out Lyoness's name....
Although it was pretty clear it wasn't really directed at her, once you read the full post. I can see how it would bother her with her name on the title, as she is right, a lot of people won't go past that. I actually clicked on it because I couldn't believe there was anything wrong with her characters lol.