So What's Up With The Make Up Options Not Showing For G8 Figures?
IceDragonArt
Posts: 12,759
I noticed this on the base figure, and thought it was a fluke. Apparently its also happening on Olympia 8 (although I don't have her, its been mentioned). I will have to check V8 when I get home. Just curious as to what thought process went into doing it this way. Its awful. There is no way to see what the make up looks like on the figure without using the Iray preview, which everyone knows for most people can be very slow and really suck up computing resources. I might switch make ups 8 or 9 times before deciding which one I want to use. If this is going to be the new norm, I won't be buying any Generation 8 females. The wait time for the Iray preview is just too long and on my laptop, almost impossible. Its bad enough that a lot of the HDRI's don't show until rendered but make up? Why one earth would anyone think this is a good idea?
Edited to add, that one of the main reasons I sometimes buy characters is for the make up. So, this is a deal killer.
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Ah it does the same thing with V8. If I had known that I would not have purchased her. I know I can return her but I actually really like her. But, moving forward, I will not be purchasing any characters that the make up is not visible in the preview. Not worth the aggravation.
I agree, it's a pain in the butt. I do many test renders but don't use Iray preview for the exact same reason. This problem only seems to be with Genesis 8 skins.
How can they even do that? (Technically speaking...)
The G8 Makups are added by using the the diffuse overlay, which is part of the iray ubershader (I don't know how its set up in 3delight). It has 2 main advantages. The makeup is now no longer affected by translucency which is more realistic, and you can really easily take the makeup from one figure and apply it to another (I really like this one). The downside is, as you have noticed, the opengl preview ignores the overly layer and so no makeup in the preview :(
The only workaround would be fairly manual you can use the LIE to load the makeups into the main diffuse texture as well (you'll prob want to keep the textures in the overlay as well to get the aformentioned non-getting messed up by translucency)
LIE overlays or other shader methods to composite two images, which the (non-Iray) preview shaders can't handle.
are those overlays png files?
should be able to apply with a photoshop or gimp.
never even looked if V8 came with extra make ups. doh
Thank you both, Richard and J Cade, for the explanation.
Why should we suddenly start having to, though? It's hardly progress.
I think I need caffeine - my first thought on seeing 'make up options for Genesis 8 figures' was 'I didn't even know that they'd had an argument.' :)
You don't have to generally, just for them to show up in the opengl preview. (and ideally, one day the viewport will get an update, since its pretty generally not good as it is)
Well I appreciate the explanation but I have no desire to have to work around the make up. I don't have the time, the desire, or the energy to have to do a work around to be able to see what the make up on a figure looks like. I can change the make up on a figure 8,10,12 times before I make up my mind. Its not a step forward, its horrible. If they were going to do this, they should have fixed the preview window first. I know lots of people who cannot use the Iray preview due to the limitations of their machines.
Sadly, that has just put the final nail in the coffin for purchasing G8 characters here. I checked one of the characters from another site and guess what, the make up shows just fine. So apparently, more of my money will be going there instead of here should I feel the need to actually purchase any G8F characters. I don't need one, single, extra, work around to make things more difficult. I feel bad that I am not going to be able to support a lot of the character vendors here but no, not even dealing with this. One of the biggest reason I buy characters is the make up. If I can't see what it looks like on the fly, its useless.
Well, the good news is, all of the make up for G3F works perfectly well on G8F and I can actually see what I am doing. So I will still be able to use the base figure since i really believe that the facial expressions are leaps and bounds better than anything else.
To each their own, personally I find the utility of being able to use V8 and Olympia 8's makeup on any other G8 (or G3 with base uvs) character, and easily adjust the strength of said makeup, outweighs the the drawback of their visibility in the main viewport.
Also I well note that theis paradigm has not AFAIK spread beyond V8 and O8 specifically, I don't think any of the PA characters follow this setup yet.
Is this something we're going to see on PA characters as well as the Daz figures? If it's only the Daz figures, it won't be so bad...
I have 24 Generation 8 characters from 16 vendors here and at Rendo. V8 and O8 are the only ones that (apparently) use this technique.
@IceDragonArt "Sadly, that has just put the final nail in the coffin for purchasing G8 characters here."
Why. This issue isn't happening on any of the G8 based characters that aren't DAZ Originals. Your choice of course, just seems a bit knee-jerky.
If this is only going to be on the base characters, thats great. I just won't buy any of those. If the PA characters don't follow this trend that will be awesome and I hope that proves to be the case. I am, however, worried that it will the trend of the future. I honestly just don't have the time to deal with something like this on a regular basis. Imagine if you are working on a character and its takes 1 to 2 minutes for the preview to show well enough to see how it looks. I've just added 10 to 20 minutes to my work flow time. Now imagine that for every single render involving a character. How much time am I losing because I have to wait for the preview? Its just not do able for me. I work full time, I have a family and pets to take care, I have a life. My art time is very precious to me and I am not giving up that much time to try out make up on a character.
I haven't done any investing in G8 yet (though I don't doubt that I will... eventually) and I can see both sides. Like IceDragonArt, I tend to flip through several options before settling on something and having to do a preveiw render for each one is a pain and time I'd rather spend on actually setting up the scene or even the final render. On the other hand, being able to switch makeups sounds like a good thing, as certainly there have been times when I decided not to use a particular character skin because it didn't have enough, or the right, makeup options.
As, so far, it is just on the base characters, it won't impact me much, because I almost always forget that those skins are even an option. We'll have to see as things move forward, though.
I haven't bought any Gen8 characters yet, but these makeup discussions on V8 and O8 made me wonder:
How does the makeup work in the 3Delight versions? Presumably it is visible in the viewport then?
(I'm still a part-time 3Delight user as I'm limited to CPU rendering in Iray and rarely use Iray preview mode because it takes far too long to build)
Good question.
I'm going to step out on a limb here, and suggest the V8/O8 way of applying makeup gives a better end result in the render. Why else would DAZ go that route? Seems to me, though, there should be a script that you apply when you're ready to render that puts the image from the Base Color parameter into the image setting for the Diffuse Overlay, along with any other Overlay settings needed. It could reside along side the presets for each figure...
I tried using the face with makeup from one character in the Diffuse Overlay of another. It didn't work out so good. But I am assuming there is more to it than just plugging in the image. Not having either V8 or O8, I can't see what their settings are. (A screenshot of the Diffuse Overlay and associated settings for either, with any makeup applied would be really nice... hint, hint...)
This change doesn't bother that much as even in 3delight the shaders may show up differently in preview than it does when you actually render and things like displacement and bump maps won't show until a render either. I don't depend on the preview most times becuase of that.
Yes, that's true: the skin often looks a lot different in preview than final render even in 3Delight.
yes, but I can generally still tell which make up is on my characters face and have a reasonable grasp on what its going to look like. And while there may be a slight improvement on how it looks, its still sucks up far too much time to wait for the preview to show all the time. To me, its not worth the aggravation. I'm sure lots of people won't mind, but I won't be buying any characters that have this feature. Again, the time lost versus the benefit gained is not worth it. And, to be honest, I have so much content and so many characters, its not much of a loss for me to not purchase a lot of characters for G8. Its disappointing because I do love new characters but I don't NEED any. So, while, this may be just fine for most people, its just one more reason for me not to invest money in something that for me is really not usable in my work flow. I've been meaning to play around more in Photoshop and doing my own make up anyway so that's a good push for me to get my butt in gear and just do it.
It seems that if you were to use the 3DL make up preset on the Iray V8 - None of the skin settings change as it uses LIE & you can see it in the viewport - This might be the answer for anyone that is bothered about the iray version not showing although the attached image of the viewport version looks very different to the iray view but perhaps that something in my settings.
If not for others questions, I would probably never have noticed that the make up doesn't show in the viewport version as I usually have iray running while I do color or light changes but now I notice it all the time :)
Well, that's good to know anyway. I appreciate your taking the time to check for me.
A bit of a pain, butI can see why it would happen - time for something to change with the OpenGL preview? There's a wealth of difference between preview not quite looking liek end result and no visible change at all; that would drive me bonkers trying to work out had I actually applied it (a quick check of Edit> Undo to see what last thing done was), followed by Ctrl-Z, Ctrl-Y cycles in Surface to see what was changing.
As a 'stopgap' (being optimistic here about the Open GL upgrade!!!!0 could be a quick Spot Render to check the result.
make up is png files http://docs.daz3d.com/doku.php/public/read_me/index/43673/file_list