No Support for iRay involved problems?
AndyS
Posts: 1,447
in The Commons
Since over 1.5 years now some of my sets can't be rendered due to problems where possibly iray is inoved. The real issues are in the interface DAZ -> iRay.
Now I was told to take care by myself for addressing the bugs agains nVidia.
So this is the duty of us DAZ usres to do?
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It depends on what the problem is, and if Daz can't replicate your problem, then only you can describe the problem to Nvidia accurately.
In simple terms, DS just sends commands to Nvidia's software and Nvidia's software reacts. If the problem is the reaction isn't what was expected, then Nvidia needs to fix their software. If Nvidia's software isn't recognizing DS command, then Daz needs to fix the command.
For example, DS presses "G" on the keyboard, Nvidia Types "G" on the screen. If DS presses "G" and Nvidia responds "Q", then Nvidia has a problem.
If DS says "G" and Nvidia doesn't do anything (Or maybe responds "error" or "Z" or whatever) Then Daz has a problem (since this is a keyboard example and keyboards don't accept voice commands)
If it is a problem with Iray, and not DS or the interface between DS and Iray, then yes, only Nvidia can fix it (i.e. a feature in Iray that you would like, a problem with how Iray renders something, or Iray crashing when it "shouldn't"). If it is a problem with the DS interface to Iray, then it is something DAZ 3D would need to fix.
Since I don't have a clue what the problem is from your post, obviously I can't advise any futher. However, I would surmise that if DAZ is telling you to deal directly with Nvidia, then it is indeed an issue with Iray, and would require Nvidai to fix it (or add requested feature, or ......?). Additionally, as kaotkbliss noted, if the programmers or tech staff at DAZ 3D can't reproduce your error, then it would be difficult for them to work with Nvidia to fix the issue, as they could only act as the middle person. It would be much more efficient for you to work directly with Nvidia, since only you would be able the answer specific questions they might have.
Hi,
the problems (count currently at 4) are all reproducable and very well documented by me.
For some I was able to unambiguously demonstrate, that the mistake is comming from DAZ into the interface even partially of both render engines.
But anyhow. Should really we, the customers, care for the repair? I ever thought, DAZ with the included addons (3Delight + iRay) was delivered as one complete package. So where is the responsibility?
Do you have any idea, how to address directly to nVidia?
Really some time ago I posted a question into the nVidia iRay forum. But no reaction up to now. And I didn't get any other link where to address problems which wieght be related to the render engines.
I guess it's one of the sad facts of the computer world, that doesn't exist in any other industry. Users are expected to figure out problems with the product. We're expected to be bug testers and beta testers to find errors that the developers made. And sadly many of us jump at the chance, which further perpetuates the problem. And don't get me started on drivers, especially video drivers. I've been using computers for decades, and it is incredible to me how many driver issues I've encountered over the years, solely because developers make mistakes, and we're left to clean them up.
On the bright side, there are many people who are using D|S successfully with NVIDIA drivers right now, so the likelihood that what you're experiencing might be a result of issues on your particular system seem fairly high, IMO. Though I feel your pain...recently I merely added a second video card to my system, and it caused a major crash, after which I had to do a lengthy procedure using a specialized, non-NVIDIA application to totally erase all remains of their driver, pull the BIOS battery, and re-install. A complete mess, but that's the kind of garbage we're faced with.
Not knowing your issues, my only suggestion is this:
Get your system back to its most basic form, remove hardware, maybe remove suspect drivers, and start from scratch. That makes it much easier to identify what's wrong.
Good luck.
By the way...
Ever notice that no matter how insanely complex the hardware is, it's very very rare you have hardware issues? I mean, look at CPU's and GPU's and motherboards. Insanely complex. But how often do you have hardware problems? How often do you have problems with other hardware? Cars for example. The engines, ignition and fuel systems and so on. Televisions. All of your appliances. Yeah, it happens, but not nearly as often as with software.
And if you do have a problem, and it's under warranty, you get a replacement. Rarely do you have to do bug testing. And when's the last time your car manufacturer asked you to beta test their new vehicle?
Hmm.....maybe the software guys need to take some lessons from the hardware guys?
AndyS, the only things I've found are the http://blog.irayrender.com/ (directly contact the developers), and the Advanced Rendering Forum, but no specific DAZ Studio section. I noticed that Mec4D got some responses posting in the Iray gallery but it was all complimentary. The developer's blog may be the way to go. They have a question box to ask anything. I've never used either.
It's all about money. Electronic hardware is often more or less impossible or too expensive to fix when first it is produced, so it's got to work when it's released. Replacing 10.000 defective mainboards cost a lot of money, replacing 1.000.000 defective pieces of software with updates cost very little in comparison. Just put it up for download and let the users do the repair themselves.
I agree it's definitely about money. And the huge benefit to having thousands or millions of willing beta testers around the world to do quality control for your product free of charge. Software guys have it easy. Post some software with bugs, have the masses tell you whats wrong, tweak it, and repeat. No shipping charges, no hardware replacement costs, just some developers cranking out updates.
Makes me wonder why we put up with it...
And I'm sure you guys are aware that NVIDIA doesn't even have their own driver uninstaller application...absolutely incredible. You have to download the "DDU" (Display Driver Uninstaller) app that someone else wrote. And is detected as a virus when you run it, at least on my system. So you have to jump thru hoops and trust it's okay, even though it's not an NVIDIA app. And people are like "oh yeah, just download that, it's okay".
Makes me wonder why we put up with it...
By the way, that all being said, I think for anyone who's been around software for any length of time has to be impressed at the support we get from DAZ. Think about it...how many software vendors have employees monitoring all the forum posts for questions and issues? I can't think of one. Well, the GeForce forums seem like there are some NVIDIA folks hanging around. But if anyone should have support they should.
Anyway, I'm very impressed with DAZ in that regard.
And I'm looking at you, Mr Haseltine
- Updated and edited multiple times
- added the word support staff to underline the difference between support staff and technological staff
- submitted a support ticket for point IV A dedicated Nvidia Iray for DAZ Studio forum area
Request #248404
- - -
Thank you for starting this thread.
The DAZ Studio Iray integration is after more than two years still in a very basic state.
-> The whole DAZ Studio UI and workflow is still not fully optimized for Nvidia Iray.
-> There are still Nvidia Iray related error messages poping up in the DAZ Studio log file.
Different types of support issues
I do agree that the whole support situation is challenging because there are at least three different support situations
- A) some new users may have no knowledge about technology and may create a huge amount of support requests
- B) some issues are limitations of Iray itself that only Nvidia can adress
- C) some issues may be caused by the way Iray is integrated into DAZ Studio.
- - -
The staff situation
The impression I currently have from DAZ3D is that a very limited amount of support staff is available.
Some support staff members may not have a background in 3D and may learn on the job about the most frequently asked questions.
DAZ3D staff members with actual software and coding knowledge may be required to focus on high priority tasks.
It is unclear if and how DAZ3D staff can communicate about Iray related problems with Nvidia Iray technological staff.
- - -
-> The challenge is to get the specific Iray related support request to the proper people that are in the position to adress it.
This situation is not optimal. But it is critical that steps are taken to improve it:
I) Automated Error Forwarding to Nvidia
Any errors triggered in DAZ Studio that are related to the Nvidia Iray render engine must automatically be forwarded to Nvidia in an anonymous way.
Nvidia is in the business of working with artificial intelligence. Surely they have the means to analyze billions of DAZ Studio log files to detect errors caused by both Iray in general and the DAZ Studio Iray integration.
- - -
II) Improve DAZ Studio Iray Status information
Currently information about Iray can only be found
- in the DAZ Studio log file (Help -> Troubleshooting -> View Log File...)
- in the info bar at the bottom left corner when the Nvidia Iray live preview viewport is active
- in the render log window when the final render window is used
This is not enough. Most users do not even notice that errors are happening with Iray.
There needs to be a dedicated Iray Info Tab with
- in depth system status information
- VRAM usage
- Error messages
- options to forward errors directly to Nvidia etc.
- - -
III) Active community participation
Rephrased:
Every member of the community can help to reduce the workload of the support staff:
- Start by searching the forum first before creating support tickets.
enter in google: "site:daz3d.com your problem"
- Do not drop your random issue in threads that are not directly related to your problem
- Create threads that focus on one issue only
- Do not interupt support threads with offtopic discussions
- If you have more advanced knowledge take a look at your DAZ Studio log files.
Check for Nvidia Iray related error messages.
Search the forum for allready existing threads covering the same error messages.
Share your error logs with your system informatiion.
IV) A dedicated Nvidia Iray for DAZ Studio forum area
Another first step to facilitate a more optimised communication about Iray would be to create a dedicated Nvidia Iray for DAZ Studio forum with several sub threads
- Subforum for Nvidia Iray Manuals, Tutorials, Guides
- Subforum tor Nvidia Iray related feature requests
- Subforum for Nvidia Iray related error messages, bug reports
- Subforum to discuss Nvidia Iray related work in progress
etc.
Maybe this way finally an educated discussion about Nvidia Iray related errors can happen on this forum instead of just random speculation spread across countless threads.
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-> There is plenty all the parties involved could do to actually improve this situation
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As one who has been using computers and software for decades, I think the last thing you can accuse users of is "lurking there in silence without taking any active role".
And it sounds like the OP has done a lot to try to pinpoint the problem he's having. But the problem is this:
As you say, some users don't understand all the technicalities of this stuff. I've been building and using computers and developing software for decades, and on some stuff I'm still clueless. The details of Iray and NVIDIA drivers and Windows and all the other stuff is impossible to understand. Which is apparent when you see the masses on the internet trying to figure out what's going on, and wasting hours and days of their own time, trying stuff that they are clueless about. And I'm certainly one of those who has spent many months or years of my time over the years trying to figure software problems.
So I wouldn't be too harsh on people for expecting the vendors to fix problems, as is done in every other industry on the planet. Like I say, only with software are we expected to solve problems.
I am rather surprised though that you say the DAZ team working on Iray is new and sparse. Personally, I've been extremely impressed with their implementation of Iray, as well as all of the D|S functionality. I mean, how often do you hear people on these forums discussing bugs in D|S? Seems to me it's mostly "how do I do this?". IMO, it seems to be a very solid software.
@linvanchene , @AndyS
And yet, some of the users are very happy with their Iray results and may not really be clear on the esoteric problems that seem to be the focus of some.
I would fit in this subset of users and I also suspect that it is a large subset of the Studio population.
I think that saying "No support for Iray problems" is proven untrue by even a casual look through the forms. Perhaps "No support for MY Iray problems) is more appropriate.
I don't think it's true that this is a phenomenon only of the software industry. I was a consultant for 14 years and saw the same sorts of issues in many industries. Two aspects that make hardware (in general) seem different are:
(a) electronic hardware usually has testing software included with the product, which in many cases can provide an error code by running the hardware in a specific, predetermined manner. This gives the supplier a definitive reproduction of the problem without all the complications often needed to reproduce software bugs
(b) the solution to hardware problems is usually to just replace the bad part, as that is usually far less expensive than trying to repair the part in situ. When dealing with software, the equivalent would be re-downloading the software and doing a clean reinstall. Sometimes that works, sometimes it doesn't. If it doesn't, the supplier needs to reproduce the issue, but sometimes it is difficult or impossible to do so as it may not occur in isolation, but be dependent on the specific hardware or on other software.
While that may be true, the amount of time I've spent in my life trying to figure out software issues compared to hardware issues is about this:
I'm sure you get the point. If the hardware industry released stuff to the public with the same quality that the software industry has, we'd have cars broken down on the highway all over the place, TV's that never worked, and so on.
While I would say that you've been extraordinarily fortunate with hardware, at least compared to me, I agree with the difference of magnitude. I would say there are 3 reasons for this:
(a) dishwashers and cars have to meet a large array of safety regulations which computer software does not. There's no law that says you have to prove that your software won't burn out your graphics card before you can release it, the way you have to prove your dishwasher won't start a house fire.
(b) your dishwasher has to be compatible with your household electrical system (which is regulated to a small number of specific configurations) and your water supply (which is regulated to a specific range of impurities and other characteristics). Your car has to function on a limited number of road surfaces under a specified range of weather conditions. The variety of configurations of hardware and software that a program has to deal with is orders of magnitude greater.
(c) the amount of effort the customer needs to expend on hardware issues is much smaller in most cases. While everyone seems to have a story about "the noise the car makes which never happens when you're at the mechanic", in most cases hardware issues can be (if needed) proven to exist by diagnostics or by answering a few questions over the phone, diagnosed (if needed) with a service call, and repaired by replacing parts. To be fair, most software issues can be very similar -- you have wikis or troubleshooting tips (and the customer service person has even more) for commonly-experienced problems. But if a software problem is not one of these, the effort on the user end to provide details on their hardware and other software and to provide exact steps to reproduce is much greater, and if it can't be reproduced easily it expands tremendously.
edited several times.
- - -
@ ebergerly
I rephrased the last post. I realize that the previous phrasing was distracting:
To summarize:
- Every member of the community can help to reduce the workload of the support staff.
- It is important that requests related to the DAZ Studio integration of Iray reach the DAZ3D technological staff
- Error messages about Iray in general must find their way to the Nvidia Iray staff.
- - -
@ fastbike
I do agree that "No Support" is an exageration.
But please keep in mind that other companies who offer GPU render engines provide a forum in which the whole
communication between developers and customers works without interference of a ticket system.
You place a help request directly on the appropriate sub forum.
Depending on the type of question different staff answers.
-> If it is a matter of customers not having a clue then general "support staff" is helping out.
-> If it is a matter of specific technological issues then the render engine or plugin developers answer directly.
Developers and customers work hand in hand so the render engine is error free.
- - -
This means companies with more resources available should be in the position to provide more advanced support.
Nvidia certainly has a lot more resources than DAZ3D.
So why is Nvidia not lending assistence to DAZ3D in the form of staff?
- - -
-> If Nvidia may not find it efficient if DAZ3D users are asking questions on the Nvidia forum
-> Then why not have Iray staff provide support directly on the DAZ3D forum?
-> If the DAZ3D community is one of the larger users groups of Iray could it help Nvidia to get some direct customer feedback?
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fixmypcmike,
I get what you're saying, but it seems like your two points are:
Yeah, okay, but as a consumer I couldn't care less about that stuff. Not my problem, right? And I think you'll agree those arguments won't fly with the vast majority of consumers. Maybe even you
But yeah, it is what it is and nobody is gonna change it. I just find it curious.
I have to agree here, it's very rare I have had problems with DS itself, by far the most problems I've had have been with bugged content.
Well there are two types of problems with hardware - general design bugs that affect all users, and manufacturing errors (dead pixels, defective RAM etc.) that usually (poor component quality like caps that go bad over time an exception) only affect a minority. I've had my share of manufacturing errors, while I don't recall having encountered any particular design bugs that have caused malfunction of any kind. Incompatibility perhaps but that's usually a limitation rather than a bug.
The thing is, it's far easier to debug a product that only has to support one specific hardware configuration than it is a product that runs on multiple different ones, unless those configurations are part of an agreed upon standard. Apple has this, whereas there isn't one for the Windows market that I'm aware of.
Oh oh oh!
it ever depends on the stuff you use in your scenes.
This thread shouldn't become a copy of the distinct bug descriptions.
The single problems got discussed with several suffisticated members over here. And it is completely clear, what the mistakes are in detail.
But you may have a look over here: https://www.daz3d.com/forums/discussion/69588/iray-refraction-bugs-pt-2#latest
The reason is that DAZ feeds the render engines' interface with a wrong parameter.
Some other vendors too complained about the "dark water" problem.
And think about the "dark eyes" as users wanted to create realistic look for the character's eyes.
Only one example.
Next is that higher mesh detailing is arbitrarily removed by iRay. This appeared from DAZ 4.9.2 to DAZ 4.9.3.
Or think on the artefact structures appearing in stonemasons environment. This effect I already observed and identified. Same: it appeared with DAZ 4.9.3 for each surface with Y < 0.
etc. etc.
So please don't call this "esotheric" only because your sets don't use those setups.
Thank you.