Mac upgrade or PC advice needed
Joe Webb
Posts: 837
My iMac apparently has bitten the dust. We had a power outage due to a wind storm recently, the power flickering on and off. My computer was rendering, and it looks like those surges fried it. I've done everything I know how to do (timemachine restore, reinstall original OS, etc.) but I haven't taken it in for a repair yet. I don't think its a complete loss, but I had already been considering an upgrade. Iray always takes forever for me, and two bits of news just came up that might effect my situation.
Nvidia releases Mac driver with support for Titan Xp and GeForce GTX 1000 Series. I was wondering if anyone here has any experience with this yet? I guess this would be a Hackintosh question, but now I'm very interested in this. I'm not a technical guy, and I use a Mac, so I'm not even sure what Nvidia cards support iRay.
In the above article was an even more interesting bit of news. Apple is working on a modular Mac Pro. One that, theoretically I guess, take different graphics cards. Aside from a cost, it probably won't be released until 2019. I need a computer now.
So I'm looking at this situation. One, I have to fix my old computer anyway. At least I hope it can be fixed, rather than getting a new iMac. Two, should I get an older Mac tower and upgrade that, somehow, to an iRay compatitable machine? Would I be able to install an Nvidia card, even its new Titan (at over $1600, that might break my budget)? Three, should I build a Hackintosh? I've just started researching this, and it seems doable. I've installed memory cards and upgraded HD's in both Macs and PCs, but that was a LONG time ago.
A realistic budget is about $1500, but that includes a fix on my old machine. If I build a Hackintosh I could probably add some to the budget, if I spread the cost out over time. I thought about a PC, but I'd rather stick with the Mac OS if possible. If there is a significant savings, and I only use DAZ and maybe graphics software (like PS) on it, I could come around. On the other hand, it looks like Apple is remembering it has a core user group of graphics people, and might be deciding to offer them a market again, if a few years from now.
Anyone care to give me a little advice?
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Comments
I strongly recommend a PC desktop with 800 or higher psu. For $1500 you can build a machine with a 1080 ti. If you primarily use Daz and PS, you won't even notice much of a difference in OS.
Sure, there will be some grumbling about using Windows 10, but you'll forget the grumbles once you experience the fast render times (and iray viewport).
Plus you'll have an open PCI slot in case you ever decide to toss another gpu in there.
If you opt to go with Mac, you'll have to sacrifice GPU or HD or memory or something useful to fit within your budget and it's simply not worth it.
My younger brother has used a few iMacs. They all fried. He only keeps getting them to keep his wife happy. He has a PC at work.
You could get a refurbished PC, or even a new PC, since the Nvidia card is the most important piece of the puzzle - add some memory and an Nvidia card for well under your $1500. I'm afraid I've only read about problems with Mac and Nvidia cards compatibility. A MacPro, for instance, only works with a handful of cards.
http://www.macvidcards.com/i-want-the-best-graphics-card-for-my-mac-pro-where-do-i-start.html
I did see the news on the Mac driver for the Titan Xp and GeForce GTX 1000 series. That might be the best way if you have to have a Mac, but you won't save money.
The 1080 ti is priced anywhere from $699 to $754+ online. A cheaper new PC could be had for $500, and a refurbished for $300 to $750. You'd probably have to add memory, but depending on the PC you buy, you're still in your $1500 ball park.
Is the machine booting? it sounds like it, or you wouldn't be able to try reinstalling or using Time machine, so where is it failing?
I have an iMac that I do most of my work on and an old Mac Pro that has a fairly decent NVIDIA card in it that I use for most of my iray rendering. That works pretty well but I know not everyone canhave two machines. I could never use a PC so that is my best set up, currently. There is also an external video card thing that you can add to a Mac that will allow you to have fast render times and the Mac OS.
That's the odd part. It starts with the Apple screen, and loading bar, but resets after a second or two, going grey then Apple screen again and loading bar, staying in that loop. If I try starting in Safe Mode it gives me a Kernel Panic message, which appears "fixable" according to various forums, by either Time Machine or OS install. I do that, it boots up, but after a few minutes decides it needs to reboot. Then the Apple screen and loading bar loop again. Something works in there, so maybe its not so bad. But whatever it is, it isn't software since I've reinstalled a few times now.
It's going to be at least a week before I have the time to either hunt the problem down myself or get it to a shop. I can research forums in the meantime.
I keep hearing this. I know years ago it was a big difference, but apparently not so much now. And since we don't technicaly own Photoshop anymore, just rent it, I can change from OS to Windows base at any time.
I heard somewhere a Mac is like owning a Rolls Royce that occassionally bursts into flame, killing everyone in it. I already have a spare monitor from a Mac that burned out on me years ago. I would like to stay with a Mac if only out of habit, but it's that pricing logic that I keep coming back to. That's why I'm looking at a Hackintosh - if I build one myself, maybe I could have a pretty good setup. Or if I want to save myself the trouble just buy a cheap one and upgrade, or a refurbished. That's my question - build one when I don't know how, or buy something.
I've used both, normally a Mac at home and a PC at work. I need to know more about external video cards, to figure out IF I can fix my current machine if I just attach a card to that. Or go the full route with a new Mac (unlikely), a hack or otherwise customer built (better but I'd have to learn as I go), or an off the shelf PC (new or old - likeliest if I'm lazy or too intimiated to try to build one).
Here are my thoughts.
You want to render Iray fast and use Photoshop.
Buy a used Dell Precision T7500 and add your own video card (Nvidia Geforce GTX 1080ti)
It's big, heavy, has good internal cooling and a 1100w power supply.
You can get good one for around $250 (or around $350 with 2 CPUs installed) on ebay
They come with Core i7 based Xeon CPUs with 4 or 6 cores each (that's 24 threads with dual 6 core cpus installed)
Up to 6 sticks of ram (96GB) with 1 CPU, or 12 sticks (192GB) with 2 CPUs installed (DDR3 server memory is cheap)
You can put 2 of whatever video cards you want into it without worying about stressing your power supply, or the cards being too long.
The only thing I can even list as a negative from personal experience (This is my main Daz Studio Box equipped with 2x quad cores, 24GB DDR3 and a GXT 1060 6GB)
The motherboard does not have USB 3.0, so you will need to add a card.
If you can get the disk out and into a PC, you could run spinrite on it (from grc.com): that might help if its is a disk problem that is recurring. Spinrite isn't cheap but it has fixed a few disks for me.
I had a similar issue a while back. I think it was an update that didn't fully work. Took it to the shop and they fixed it right up.
Thank you so much James, the detail gives me something concrete to work off of. I'm leaning towards this sort of thing, taking a refurbished, or scratch built and otherwise customize it.
I don't have ready access to a PC, but thanks for the advice.
I'm hoping it won't be too complicated or costly to fix. But either way I need to upgrade.
At this point, I'd say either go PC, take a chance on a Hackintosh or wait to see how the new Mac pro ends up, though, I wouldn't hold your breath that they'll get that right. The rumors that suggest a "modular" system means they didn't really learn the lesson with their silly trash can machine. IMacs are great for "normal" stuff, but they suck for DS. You need as much GPU power and you just can't fit that into the skinny, low power profile that they seem to think everyone wants.
Until a year and some change back, I hadn't used a windows computer in almost 10 years, but I gave up on apple and bought a decent little windows render machine. I still use my mac for doing almost everything else (the windows computer will never be used for anything except 3D and gaming), but I'm in the process of moving my DS content off my mac so that it runs more smoothly on the PC and will probably do less and less 3D with it. I'll keep this set up until I can see what the new mac pro looks like. If it's back to the old aluminum tower, and there are valid nVidia GPUs available, then I'll probably stay with Mac. If not, I'll start looking to migrate completely away from apple.
As for the user who said that Macs are junky and don't last very long, that's absolute garbage. I have a Mac Pro that is almost 10 years old (maybe it is, I honestly can't remember) that runs just fine, but it's really old so the processors are slow. It's been acting as a combo file server / VM host for running dev web sites and does all of that quite well. However, once I migrate the data off of those disks, I'll reformat it as a linux server. The iMac I had before my current one lasted well over 4 years and then I traded it in for the new one. During that trade in, I got about $800 bucks. That was for a machine that was over 4 years old that had been put through the ringer with poser and all sorts of C++ compiling. That machine almost never sat idle.
My only reservation about a hackintosh is that you are a little bit at apple's mercy. I doubt they'll ever outright sabatoge them, but from some of the things I've read, it's not a completely painless process to remain current with them. I used to love tinkering with my old windows computers, and later, monkeying around with linux machines. However, these days, I don't want to spend time doing that sort of thing. I spend way too much time problem solving at work and prefer not to have to waste my personal time dealing with that sort of thing. But, believe me...the thought is still not far from my mind.
If you are used to OSX, windows 10 will feel very klunky to you. You'll waste hours turning off MS advertisements on the desktop, shutting cortana up, blocking all sorts of MS garbage at the firewall but the OS is mostly solid. I hardly use the OS (Studio stays up, full screen and the only real interaction I have with windows itself is the save dialog which doesn't work very well for some reason), so it still feels very foreign (even after having it for almost a year and a half!) but I can do so much more with studio on that machine than I ever could with my mac, so it's OK.
A little word of caution, Joe, relative to James suggestion. If you want a dual socket system with six-core Xeons, buy a workstation that comes so equipped. If you buy one that only has quads, or only a single processor, upgrading may not be as simple as you might assume, or even not possible at all. Those Precisions tended to use single-socket motherboards, with the second processor mounted in a daughter board. A single processor unit will probably lack the daughter card. Also, if it uses quads that does not guarantee that the boards will support hexes, even though they use the same socket. I know with the HP Z600 workstations there were three revisions to the motherboards and only the third revision supported the hex cores.
I posted this eslewhere, and if it's not okay to double post, I apologize. You guys seem very knowledgeable and helpful, so I thought I'd take the chance.
Here's what the first post said:
Hi All,
I have to replace my Macbook Pro, and would like to stick with a Mac if possible, but can't afford new. I've been thinking I'd like to do more animations and things in Daz, and maybe that means I shouldn't be trying to do it on a laptop. I found this Mac Pro on eBay (repubable seller) and am wondering if it would be a smart thing to buy if I'm going to invest in a computer primarily for using Daz and doing some video editing. I am not a techie and don't understand half of what I've spent two days reading here, trying it out without asking, so I'm going to just ask rather than guessing. :-)
Here's what it says:
Mac Pro 2010 Genuine 5,1 / 3.33Ghz 6-Core / 32GB RAM 2TB
Seller also says: "We offer high performance video cards (2GB/4GB 4K compatible), SSDs add ons, extended warranties, and much more. This system is ideal for Audio/Video Production."
I don't need to run Iray--it would be nice, but I like working in 3Delight, so that's less of an issue than fast 3Delight rendering. If that graphics card is not good, what would you recommend asking to upgrade to without breaking the bank? This computer is about $1200--I could add a couple of hundred to it, but not much more, as I have to borrow the money from family.
Any thoughts are greatly appreciated!
Nicole
I can offer advice from direct experience on this topic.
I render a lot using NVIDIA Iray. Purely on CPU this takes ages, and really stresses the CPU. Not a good idea for iMacs and MacBooks. I own a 2015 MacBook and it's not fun to render on it.
Early this year I needed a new rendering system, so I bought components and built a PC. NVIDIA Geforce 10XX, I7 CPU and so on. This machine currently runs Windows 7 and works like a charm for all things 3D.
At the same time, the machine can run MacOS as in Hackintosh. The GPU works, the render times in DAZ Studio are exactly the same. Sadly for many other 3D apps that I use the lack of DirectX and the current state of metal(2) and openGL means the don't run as good in MacOS as in windows.
With the added support of eGPU in High Sierra you might soon be able to run an external NVIDIA GPU connected to iMac or MacBook. But that's going to be way above the mentioned budget.
The Precision T7500 does not have a problem with CPU compatibility, you just need to make sure it has dual CPUs when purchasing the system. If you try adding the secong CPU riser later, they sell for around $100.
These systems suport all dual, quad and hex core Xeons from the X5500, E5500, X5600 and E5600 series (they come in speeds up to 4.4Ghz for dual cores, 3.6Ghz for quad cores, and 3.47Ghz for hex cores)
I recently went onto the Nvidia website to get the free version of MentalRay, which I needed to for my final renders for class assignments (can't render animations on it, but you can do stills). They had a free trial of Iray available as well.
No Mac support. At All. None. Nada.
So, if you are on a Mac, I shouldn't expect much help from Nvidia if you get into difficulties.