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Uhrag and its poses.

ArtiniArtini Posts: 10,313
edited June 2017 in The Commons

Could not find any thread for the discussion about Uhrag - https://www.daz3d.com/war-beasts-uhrag

https://www.daz3d.com/war-beasts-uhrag-cavalry-pack

https://www.daz3d.com/war-beasts-uhrag-texture-pack

I am trying to change the head pose of Uhrag, while keeping the hands and reins unaffected.

I have pinned up parts of the reins that have contact with the hands, but when I rotate the head,

the reins rotate with it.

Is there any way to keep reins in contact with hands, even if one change the pose of the Uhrag?

imageimage

Post edited by Artini on

Comments

  • GreybroGreybro Posts: 2,599

    Did you first parent the rider to the Urhag body as instructed in the pose hints? There are some advanced tips for using the poses in this video.

  • Sixus1 MediaSixus1 Media Posts: 63

    The short answer I'll offer here, is no, I don't believe there is a way to do what you are asking. I could be totally wrong, of course and am VERY open to input. This is, sadly, one of the biggest reasons I think a lot of us might avoid doing things that involve "closed loops" in rigging like characters holding reigns, but frankly, I would rather have to work with the issue than simply avoiding it as that vastly limits many designs that I know I and many customers enjoy. BTW: these are often called "closed loops" because the character and her parts (i.e. hands, etc.) are parented to the creature, the reigns are parented to the creature, but either the hands or reigns, in theory, should be parented to one another in some way, thus closing the hierarchical loop. To my knowledge, and I've looked extensively on the subject, there isn't a dedicated solution for this scenario in DS. If there happens to be someone reading this who knows of one, I will gladly listen to any thoughts on possible solutions I might have overlooked, and offer that it would be an excellent thing for Daz to look into some manner of implementation in the future, as it is a VERY common rigging conundrum. My answer to the scenario, as I understand is also common with others who run into this sort of need, is often to provide combined/heirarchical poses where we have manually placed the elements for you. I am going to take a bit of time this morning, though, to try a few things and see if I can't at least help find some workarounds that might have practical application which can be shared here. -Les

  • Oso3DOso3D Posts: 15,085

    Another option is dynamic clothing (with, say, VWD). If you did an animated drape, you could have reins that react to a body (and base) twisting from a properly held alignment to some other alignment.

    It's a somewhat involved/expensive path, but it can let you do pretty complex stuff.

     

  • ArtiniArtini Posts: 10,313
    Greybro said:

    Did you first parent the rider to the Urhag body as instructed in the pose hints? There are some advanced tips for using the poses in this video.

    Yes, I have parented the rider to the Uhrag body as instructed in the pose hints.

    I am only surprising, that pinning does nothing at all - I thought, that it will stop moving, the parts, that was pinned.

     

  • ArtiniArtini Posts: 10,313
    Sixus1 Media said:

    The short answer I'll offer here, is no, I don't believe there is a way to do what you are asking. I could be totally wrong, of course and am VERY open to input. This is, sadly, one of the biggest reasons I think a lot of us might avoid doing things that involve "closed loops" in rigging like characters holding reigns, but frankly, I would rather have to work with the issue than simply avoiding it as that vastly limits many designs that I know I and many customers enjoy. BTW: these are often called "closed loops" because the character and her parts (i.e. hands, etc.) are parented to the creature, the reigns are parented to the creature, but either the hands or reigns, in theory, should be parented to one another in some way, thus closing the hierarchical loop. To my knowledge, and I've looked extensively on the subject, there isn't a dedicated solution for this scenario in DS. If there happens to be someone reading this who knows of one, I will gladly listen to any thoughts on possible solutions I might have overlooked, and offer that it would be an excellent thing for Daz to look into some manner of implementation in the future, as it is a VERY common rigging conundrum. My answer to the scenario, as I understand is also common with others who run into this sort of need, is often to provide combined/heirarchical poses where we have manually placed the elements for you. I am going to take a bit of time this morning, though, to try a few things and see if I can't at least help find some workarounds that might have practical application which can be shared here. -Les

    Thanks a lot for stopping by in this thread. The Uhrag looks awesome, when rendered, and I would like to really pose it with the reins and the Genesis 3.

     

  • SimonJMSimonJM Posts: 6,067

    I, in my stunning ignorance, would assume that a modicum of rigging in the reins, or a selection of movement morphs would help address such issues.

  • ArtiniArtini Posts: 10,313
    timmins.william said:

    Another option is dynamic clothing (with, say, VWD). If you did an animated drape, you could have reins that react to a body (and base) twisting from a properly held alignment to some other alignment.

    It's a somewhat involved/expensive path, but it can let you do pretty complex stuff.

     

    Thanks for the tip. I also realized, that dynamic clothing simulation could solve the problem.

    I have bought VWD quite a long time ago (during the sale), but have not used it at all.

    May be first I will try to make some morph for the reins and see, if it could help a little.

     

  • Richard HaseltineRichard Haseltine Posts: 108,114
    Sixus1 Media said:

    The short answer I'll offer here, is no, I don't believe there is a way to do what you are asking. I could be totally wrong, of course and am VERY open to input. This is, sadly, one of the biggest reasons I think a lot of us might avoid doing things that involve "closed loops" in rigging like characters holding reigns, but frankly, I would rather have to work with the issue than simply avoiding it as that vastly limits many designs that I know I and many customers enjoy. BTW: these are often called "closed loops" because the character and her parts (i.e. hands, etc.) are parented to the creature, the reigns are parented to the creature, but either the hands or reigns, in theory, should be parented to one another in some way, thus closing the hierarchical loop. To my knowledge, and I've looked extensively on the subject, there isn't a dedicated solution for this scenario in DS. If there happens to be someone reading this who knows of one, I will gladly listen to any thoughts on possible solutions I might have overlooked, and offer that it would be an excellent thing for Daz to look into some manner of implementation in the future, as it is a VERY common rigging conundrum. My answer to the scenario, as I understand is also common with others who run into this sort of need, is often to provide combined/heirarchical poses where we have manually placed the elements for you. I am going to take a bit of time this morning, though, to try a few things and see if I can't at least help find some workarounds that might have practical application which can be shared here. -Les

    One option might be a set of props, or even nulls, parented to the rider's hands and then rig the reins and set them to PointAt the matching null. That would at least align them though it wouldn't help with length adjustment (that coudl be done with a fairly simple morph, perhaps). Not soemthing I've tried, and it may run into insuperable difficulties in practice.

  • Oso3DOso3D Posts: 15,085

    Artini:

    VWD Tips -- you want to make the saddle and whatnot 'fixed facet' (so they don't have draping effects and fly apart comedically). If the reins clip through the hands (which I think they are likely to do with default stuff), you probably want to set... I forget what they are, but there are two values to essentially increase the calculations between iterations, and you want to gently nudge those up a little.

     

  • Sixus1 MediaSixus1 Media Posts: 63
    Richard Haseltine said:
    Sixus1 Media said:

     

    One option might be a set of props, or even nulls, parented to the rider's hands and then rig the reins and set them to PointAt the matching null. That would at least align them though it wouldn't help with length adjustment (that coudl be done with a fairly simple morph, perhaps). Not soemthing I've tried, and it may run into insuperable difficulties in practice.

     

    I actually just experimented with this as my first "go-to" theory, and unfortunately, the point at function causes joints to rotate in some very strange, and difficult to control ways. Tried a few different variations of trying to use nulls, groups, etc. via parenting options, point at options, and so far, none of them achieve the desired goal. I'm not surprised, but thought I'd at least give it a try again, just in case I've missed something.

    Regarding a dynamic solution: that COULD work to a certain degree, but, and correct me if I'm wrong here please, wouldn't that require a certain plugin? I confess my own lack of knowledge on the subject of dynamic cloth in DS at this point, though it's on my list of things I plan to dig into soon. Still, if it would require a plugin to use, that makes a less than attractive choice for me as a content creator as I try my best to create things that will work for a broad audience "out of the box".

    So, at the moment, unfortunately, my best answer is that I can't see a way right off to pose all of those things together, but the reigns are jointed so manually posing them shouldn't be all that bad, it's just not as "perfect" a solution as we all would like. If you'd like, though, I can put together one of my new "DS Teachables" videos on the subject and show some tips on posing exactly this kind of thing that might help at least a little.

    Just some further thoughts: from experience rigging in Maya for years now, the way in which I would achieve this in there would be using an IK controller on the hand, then one at the desired joint of the reigns, then parent the two of those under a null and move them withh that null. In there, we have the ability to use what's called "IK Blend" where the degree to which IK controls the joint chain can be dialed in from amounts of zero to complete control, and then that controller itself can be parented to other things. This is something that Poser attempted to implement, but because the internals of its IK implementation had some serious issues, it never quite worked out the way it should. Since DS does have a lot of, at least theoretical shared lineage from Poser, I'm wondering if there isn't something under the hood that attempts the same. Richard, think someone like RbtWiz or Josh Darling might want to chime in here? Would be interesting to get some input from the guys at "ground zero". :) -Les

  • Sixus1 MediaSixus1 Media Posts: 63

    Hey guys, just a heads up, I'm going ahead and doing a quick video working with this stuff at the moment, live, which can be seen here: https://www.youtube.com/user/Sixus1Media/live

    -Les

  • Sixus1 MediaSixus1 Media Posts: 63

    Update: just wrapped about a 20min livestreamed response to this that should be viewable on my youtube channel in a few min. -Les

  • ArtiniArtini Posts: 10,313

    Thanks a lot for that, Les. I will check it out later on.

     

  • ArtiniArtini Posts: 10,313
    edited June 2017
    timmins.william said:

    Artini:

    VWD Tips -- you want to make the saddle and whatnot 'fixed facet' (so they don't have draping effects and fly apart comedically). If the reins clip through the hands (which I think they are likely to do with default stuff), you probably want to set... I forget what they are, but there are two values to essentially increase the calculations between iterations, and you want to gently nudge those up a little.

     

    Thanks again. That is a good opportunity for me, to finally test VWD.

     

    Post edited by Artini on
  • Sixus1 MediaSixus1 Media Posts: 63

    Keep us posted on how it goes! :)

  • ArtiniArtini Posts: 10,313

    Will do, hopefully during the weekend.

     

  • gederixgederix Posts: 390
    Sixus1 Media said:

    The short answer I'll offer here, is no, I don't believe there is a way to do what you are asking. I could be totally wrong, of course and am VERY open to input. This is, sadly, one of the biggest reasons I think a lot of us might avoid doing things that involve "closed loops" in rigging like characters holding reigns, but frankly, I would rather have to work with the issue than simply avoiding it as that vastly limits many designs that I know I and many customers enjoy. BTW: these are often called "closed loops" because the character and her parts (i.e. hands, etc.) are parented to the creature, the reigns are parented to the creature, but either the hands or reigns, in theory, should be parented to one another in some way, thus closing the hierarchical loop. To my knowledge, and I've looked extensively on the subject, there isn't a dedicated solution for this scenario in DS. If there happens to be someone reading this who knows of one, I will gladly listen to any thoughts on possible solutions I might have overlooked, and offer that it would be an excellent thing for Daz to look into some manner of implementation in the future, as it is a VERY common rigging conundrum. My answer to the scenario, as I understand is also common with others who run into this sort of need, is often to provide combined/heirarchical poses where we have manually placed the elements for you. I am going to take a bit of time this morning, though, to try a few things and see if I can't at least help find some workarounds that might have practical application which can be shared here. -Les

    I'd cut off a finger to have access to linked posing like that.

    Not my own of course, but someone's...

  • ArtiniArtini Posts: 10,313
    edited June 2017

    Just one render...

    image

    Chastity08pic02_BrightNight.jpg
    1920 x 1080 - 1M
    Post edited by Artini on
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