Giving the devil his due: Ophelia 7
ScarletX1969
Posts: 587
First off, this is not an asking of thoughts about Ophelia 7. She's stunning...end of story.
This is something else.
I bought my first Daz product back in 2003, 10/23/03 to be exact. It was a bat by SilverKey3d I believe. Over the years, I have been a very loud critique over the lack of diversity with the human characters at Daz. While I'm probably much more open-minded than most, I too find it hard to be motivated to do art when there is a lack of diversity that I can relate to or feel comfortable with.
But I must say, the slew of diverse characters from Daz and vendors as well...these are incredible. The amazing amount of work and detail that Daz and the vendor community have put into these characters are simply fantastic.
Thanks for allowing us artists to create more diverse worlds than ever before. Although things are far from complete, a lot has change in since 2003. Ophelia 7 is yet another example of how far things have come and how Daz and the vendor community has listened. Thanks a lot for these.
Now, two things:
1. DO SOMETHING WITH CARRARA (sorry, had to slide that one in...lol).
2. Now if we can get some more not-as-cute-or-handsome characters other than humanoid creatures (lol x 100).
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Comments
Agreed. Diversity in characters has a come a long way since poor little white Vicky in a temple.
I think many vendors will fear that less than perfect characters won't sell but I loved and purchased Dale not long ago. I would love to see more of these "Average Joe & Jane" characters.
Alot of the "pretty guy & girl" characters look the same which is why I rarely pick them up.
It certainly has.
I think a lot of the vendor's choice of content has to do with the establishment of what sells and what's considered beauty. I guess they figured if we want them to look less than perfect, we can do that ourselves since they are in the business of making money for a living. Someone recently mentioned in a post that they had some many "white" girl characters that they refuse to even look at newer ones. I'm in the category, too. I like FWSA's characters, Silver, and Aery Soul's stuff, but in general, I only buy characters now if they are part of a pro bundle.
Good ethnic characters that stand out I will always buy. Ophelia 7 is the first Daz character that I instantly fell in love with. Even Monique 7, Darius 7, or Bethany 7 didn't excite my inner 3D muse quite like Ophelia 7 has.
Diversity in what sense? Racial/cultural or age/looks or both? I think the popularity of George inspired some of the vendors to be a little more adventurous, followed by many comments here about the lack of any kind of diversity. But we still have a long way to go. The warrior queen obviously still rules even if she does appear a little more battle hardened. Let us have some more older and/or less attractive real-world people of all shades and backgrounds. I think Ophelia is a small step in the right direction but only a very small step from Rune - yet another warrior queen ... what is it with this fantasy warrior obsession from DAZ? Is it a policy that every character should have a battlefield-ready physique?
By the way, is it just me or do the eyes look a little strange ... in the lacrimal corners?
I, too, would like a stable of ready-made regular-to-odd looking characters. And it seems to me that the financially safest way for a vendor to do this is to give us sets of face morphs, perhaps twelve to fifteen per set, like I am and The Man in the Mirror. But they really need to be special characters like the ones in those sets, not variations on a theme. On the other hand, most real people look like caricatures, and I 've noticed that it can be quite difficult to achieve convincing realism when the character is not conventionally beautiful/handsome. Meanwhile, I just convert all my earlier generations to Genesis 3.
No, it's not a policy. It just simply sells. If it didn't, it wouldn't be featured every time. I'm older and I've never bought the look, but seeing what shows up in the galleries all over, it's the only conclusion you can come to.
Daz certainly has a more diverse line up of characters to choose from since I first got here a little over a year ago. For instance you definitely have a larger range of male base figures to work with. There are a few more mature characters and even some younger teen figures that get the job done, and more ethnic types like native american, islanders and Indian characters. We even got a character with vitiligo. I'm glad a few PA's were willing to take the gamble, and I hope it's paying off for them.
We still have a very long way to go, but at least I can see the improvement. I have to guess a lot of it came from the forums, because the issue kept coming up and though there were the naysayers and such, a lot of people simply weren't buying the excuses given, and the Daz landscape is a much better place for it.
I agree to an extent. I don't really want to pick from a selection of pre-made variations because I like to create my own variations with the dials and Zev0's morphs. However, I'm not a PA so I can't do a good job working from a glamour model base. I'd like a realistic base to work with, if that makes sense. Something like Ivan.
As a "POC", for me it's about racial/cultural/ethnicity; however, running a very close second is age/looks. George definitely falls into the category of diversity. We need a female like George. Don't know if there is one (which, if there is not, that speaks volumes).
I have thousand of standard beauty characters...THOUSANDS! My diversity pool is very small compared to that. Daz and vendors still has a ways to go to even come close to matching the unbalanced nature between existing characters, but they're doing a great job so far.
I was excited about Monique 6 and Darius 6 just like I'm excited about Ophelia 7. For me to get excited about any Daz character, especially since there are so many and so many variations, is a lot.
For Genesis 2, but very nice.
https://www.daz3d.com/big-beautiful-genesis-2-female-s
https://www.daz3d.com/curvaceous-olympia-7
Sickleyields done a few yes think she gets overlooked here's another think gets overlooked cause of the name and one has horns but that's an added anatomy if you ant to add it https://www.daz3d.com/barbarian-and-succubus-for-bethany-7 ;
Please, can anyone tell me how these renders are achieved? What lights and HDRI DAZ are using here in these promos?
https://www.daz3d.com/media/catalog/product/cache/1/image/9df78eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95/1/6/16-daz3d_ophelia-7_.jpg
This one adds a bit of curves
https://www.daz3d.com/metamorphosis-for-genesis-3-female-s.
Also there are a few other moph packages at Renderosity
So, I looked at that picture you linked and thought "Wow she is very orange". The lighting in that scene doesn't seem to be anything special, looks like the setup was just to show off how high resolution her textures are. Other than the reflection in the eyes, you should be able to recreate that pretty easily with a three spotlight setup.
Here's a quick little setup I did with Bethany, a portrait backdrop, two spotlights, and one camera with depth of field turned on.
And Vyktohria has a full-figured lady for Genesis 3: https://www.daz3d.com/vyk-bessie
A lot of people obviously want a bit of diversity, not for any altruistic reasons, but simply because there are things they would like to do and can't; the question is how many and is it enough to make it profitable? I for one admit to having no earthly idea, and I hate jumping to unfounded conclusions.
The majority of people using Daz are hobbyists, or doing it for fun. When people get ready to take that next step and go commerical or pro they will naturally gravitate toward picking up the skills that will be necessary to take them there -- and those skills involve a lot more than Daz's lack of diversity pool to play around with, but goes as far as clothes design and even architectural modeling.
Any of those skills could take years to become proficient at if you don't have hours to devote to it, so asking amateurs and hobbyists to jump into that right off the bat is rather asking a lot, considering that the basic skills of lighting, texturing and posing also take a while to nail down as any glance at the galleries will make obvious.
Rather it might come down to some entrepaneur who already has those skills to maybe see an opportunity and capitalize on it. A lot of us out here would definitely take advantage of it if someone did.
I have talked to many merchants who listened to the usual
"we want to see regular people etc " posts in the forums
only to create such characters and have them fail miserably
in the marketplace.
It reminds me of the poser users who gratuitously assert
that daz would "make a ton of money" if they made Genesis3and her content compatible with poser.
It is all just wishful thinking undisturbed by market realities.
Commercial businesses make product dev decision based on trends and those trends are indicated by what consumers have already purchased and are likely to continue purchasing and what the PRODUCERS have indicated are profitable for them in their sale reports.
Not what individuals assert in random web forum posts with statements like :"alot of us would buy such & such Characters if someone made them" as those post do not reprsent a large enough sample to be considered broad &viable market research.
This is cold the reality as I have observed over the years
I'll take your word for that then.
As a consumer, all I can go by is not being able to find something in the Daz store when I need it, and noticing that lots of other people seem to be asking for the same thing. I only wish in the physical world I could run across scenarios like that a lot more often.
The size of the market is a major factor.
you will find plenty of diversity and options when shopping for broadly used consumer products like microwave ovens & laundry soap etc. at every price range
In this particular niche area of click load and rendering of Decent looking people& content ,with very little general CG knowledge required,DAZ has very little competition at the moment.
Poser is a commercial dead end from a content dev perspective.
And Iclone, while making great strides with their newer characters , still does not match the realism of the Genesis figures and the reallusion content marketplace has a much higher cost of entry.
compared to DAZ studio which is Freeware.
How did I miss her? I really don't remember seeing a promo for her but I did have a busy year emigrating half way across the world so I probably missed her appearance.
However, it is a sad fact that the problem with the larger figure is find clothes to fit nicely. The shrink-wrap auto-fit makes the cloth disappear into the creases - especially under the breasts - as can be seen in Bessie's promo pictures. That fact alone has made me wary of creating bigger characters with the morph dials.
I wish I had the skills to make my own characters and clothing but I seem to get lost in the terminology even when I read the most newbie-friendly tutorials. There always seem to be assumptions that I already have some knowledge of rigging or weight maps or JCMs, etc. Or that I have ZBrush. Or maybe it is just too easy to pay for someone else's skills and put up with the lack of diversity that I perceive.
Already started down that road, because I want to take my art beyond simply posing women with model perfect figures into cheesecake poses.
It's funny how people will cast shade on Daz for not being up to professional standards and yet bring up the economic reasons for why it doesn't have many of those assets available that would catch the eye of serious artists. It's funny how a mature character, or non sexualized armor might not be economically viable, and yet I have to wonder exactly how many people asked for a sexed up version of Cthulu and exactly how many people are going to purchase that for renders?
But hey I've been surprised before.
Greetings,
So... I just recently picked up VirtualWorld Dynamics for Cloth and Hair, and the DAZ Studio Bridge for same for ~$46, and I think it may solve that problem. You can put conforming clothing on an atypically shaped character, then sim it, and the result gets sent back into DAZ Studio. I've done a few tests (I have a Windows box I use for rendering, because nVidia 1080(!)) and while the software is buggy, it is functional, and less buggy than some other DAZ plugins I've used.
I would love it very much if the VWD folks/person (who have a PA account here, but nothing in their store!) would make a specific plugin for DAZ Studio that integrates it directly, but...well, rumors and speculation are rampant around dynamics in DAZ Studio, and I have no special knowledge.
Anyhow, as a Customer of Size (thanks Southwest Airlines, for that stirring euphemism!) I like these characters a lot, although George stands out as particularly amazingly well done, specifically in how well he mixes with other characters to add a bit of...heft, let's say, to any character. I bought SY's BBG2F when it came out, and it IS great, but for some reason it never really caught on as well for mixing with other characters. VYK Bessie is a strange bird, and doesn't feel...right, to me. Being overweight is _messy_, with the skin behaving weirdly in places, and she's just too smooth. That's why BBG2F is such a good character to me, and George even more so; they capture (in HD!) that randomness.
But DAZ has come a long way since having to have a specific 'ethnic' set to provide POC and character diversity, and it's very much worth applauding.
-- Morgan
I did have VWD a couple of months ago. I spent a good couple of weeks working with it but could not get it to stay stable for more than a few minutes. Then it would crash, and crash ... and crash. I had some great help from their forum and the vendor himself was very helpful but even he gave up in the end and I got a refund. I have no idea why some people could work with it happily and others (I wasn't the only one) would get constant crashing. I really did want it to work for me. I seem to have a jinx ... I will crash anything in no time. I had it with DAZ Studio crashing throughout versions 2 and 3 (4 has been quite stable - such a blessing!). I had it with Reality and with Optitex. And in all that time I've been through a couple of decent PCs and an expensive iMac so it wasn't down to a particular box.
Too bad it didn't work for you :-(
Also, as far as non-size 0 female body type diversity goes, didn't Deepsea say they were planning on a George-like equivalent for G3F at one point? I'm *very* curious to see how that will turn out and be received, if it actually happens.
George is a fantastic character. Sure he's niche, but when you're doing a render and need a character like that you're glad to have him around.
Someone made the comment for how few add-ons there were for George, but when you look at male characters in general, there are actually as much for george as some other characters. Also if I'm correct DeepSea isn't a conglomerate of people making content, so considering when George came out they have a nice catalog, and their quality is top notch. Modeling takes time and especially so if you're not just spinning dials on a base figure and making clones with only minor variations.
Their one female figure also fills the niche for a more realistically proportioned female body type and face. The same can be said of their "Lola's Son" figure which is the most realistic pre-teen male character in the store at present and that a lot of people wanting such a figure aren't even aware of. Which also brings up an observation; it would be nice if we could "favorite" certain creators and have a way of knowing when they have new content. which I'm guessing might work in the favor of some PA's as far as boosting their sales; especially the ones doing unique stuff for the unprofitable minority of users out here who have asked for and want something a bit different.
Indeed he is!!!
as a content developer myself I plan on using him
in my future animation work wearing whatever I choose to make for him.
https://www.daz3d.com/forums/discussion/152036/it-seems-he-was-born-for-the-role#latest
@wolf359 "Not what individuals assert in random web forum posts with statements like :"alot of us would buy such & such Characters if someone made them" as those post do not reprsent a large enough sample to be considered broad &viable market research.
This is cold the reality as I have observed over the years"
Exactly! In a recent post complaining about the lack of full armor for females, the OP finely stated that they rarely buy the fully armored products that were available because the OP was "picky" about realism.
I do wonder if everyone that complined about the lack of "real" characters bought George.
I did. And I enjoy using him.