Greeble City Blocks 4 and iRadiance (same complaints)
Griffin Avid
Posts: 3,816
I LOVE THESE TWO, but.......
I place DimensionTheory in the same box as Stonemason.
Brilliant products (genius craftsmanship), but genrally lacking in the marketing/pitch/product listings.
His City blocks number 4 is out and it's a main store listing, BUT! He's got no product description. How does that happen?
Where's the link to collect them all? (Or do I not see it cause I own them already?)
I don't care if it's 4 and if you're curious- you can go search for 1 and read about that. lol
That leads me to a million questions.....
1) What's the scale? Can I put people around those buildings? Or are they for far shots and distant skyline shots only? Are they blurry up close?
2) Are there presets or do I have to ALWAYS piece them together myself? etc etc...
3) Are there night and day materials? Or is that a 'surface' thing? Are those lighting presets?
iRadiance 2 has a thread asking some basic questions..basic as in WHAT IS THIS?
I had the same exact questions and once the product page offers little explanation, I figure it must be for advanced users and move on.
"Also new to Volume 2 are a collection of 25 HDR texture based color profiles."
That sounds great. I would love to see it in action first.
I watched the video 4 times this morning (and I watched it last time you had a similar product) and I still have no idea what this is.
Mostly, Daz marketing for products seems to be "Hey, if it's in our store, it must work and be cool- so buy it and trust us, you'll put it to use eventually".
Greebles 4.....
So many times I've bought something and figure I'll figure it out AFTER I OWN IT. lol
What's needed are actual reasons to buy it. That I can understand before I buy it.
Seems simple enough.
1) What scenario do I use this or what problem does it solve?
Dark indoor scenes with poor lighting? I dunno. Outdoor with washed out backdrops? I dunno.
Is this better than loading a lamp prop and pointing it at the face of my character? I dunno.
What gap does this fill that ghostlights or point lights or...whatever- wouldn't suffice?
Video says low-res jpegs for the comparisons....do many Daz products have low-res backdrops? Is that a thing or is that like onlyapplicable if I grabbed some free HDRI jpegs off the net?
For a video, why not show someone OPENING DAZ and then using this product IN DAZ and showing a real example of the product in use...
Let me see the workflow....let me see how difficult or easy this is....to use, by ...me...a user....lol
Extra points for showing a well known Daz product that everyone should have like...like... Level 19.
Show Victoria 7 with a plain render and boring light and then WAMMO you use iRadiance and create something really emotive.
I know somewhere in the daz forum-assisted manual there's a section explaining HDRIs.
But I have more product-specific questions. What do I see BEFORE I render? Do the lights show up as anything -or a jsut rough boxed-shaped props in texture-shaded view?
Can I see how the light *might look before render?
How is this with render times? Shorter than godrays and ghostlights?
What happens if I use several in one scene?
How large can I scale them up? Can I use them to light a giant area- like an entire living room? Can I get film-noir like results -
with super heavy shadows on my character's face?
Oh and the Read Mes link to no additional information.
I wish someone would get involved and really market the better vendors in the store.
You both deserve a lot more support. And you know what? - if it wasn't for the other thread asking more questions, I was ready to ignore this product too.
Now, it's in the wishlist for Friday night too.
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Comments
Well, a lot of us don't think Stonemason and Dimension Theory need better marketing.
I get that you don't understand what the product information means, but that doesn't make it universal. Dimension Theory's info is actually very detailed and does tell you exactly how the lights work and how they are different. The promos make it pretty clear as well because you can see the reflected panels in the surfaces. The Ferrari render is an example.
The Greeble renders provide enough information for you to figure out that these are for large city expanse shots, not detailed closeups with people and vehicles. One couldn't make the product renders with detailed models. The renders of the various block should be another giveaway. Finally, the typical detail that appears in all of Stonemason's non-Greeble products isn't there, nor are the detailed renders with context.
Who's a lot of us, you? lol
"...enough information for you to figure out"
If me having to figure something out is part of your 'everything is fine as it is' stance, count me as agreeing to disagree.
The promos make it pretty clear as well because you can see the reflected panels in the surfaces.
I looked at the picture and didn't know what you meant, but after thinking about this product as including (props that are not shown) I see what you are referring.
So yeah, I should be able to surmise that I'll be manipulating an item that is not shown becuase in one of the renders there's a reflection of it. Gotcha.
Here, I'll do it myself. lol
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You know his work from The Urban Series and his highly detailed natural environments. Stonemason is back with Greeble City Blocks 04. A greeble is a fine detailing added to the surface of a larger object that makes it appear more complex, and therefore more visually interesting. It usually gives the audience an impression of increased scale. Stonemason takes this concept and applies it to the futuristic metropolis. You'll get the individual buildings-as- blocks to create your own cityscape and backdrop.
Don't download another 'futuristic skyline' and limit yourself by slapping it behind your render. Place your action ABOVE the city with a 3-dimensional landscape that you can control. This set comes as 26 unique props, which are easy to place side by side in any configuration you choose.
Vary your cities by combining different sets. Use Greebles for the far to medium shots and his meticulously detailed ground-level products to take your action to the streets. If you've never considered building your own cityscape, GCB04 makes a great starting point. If you're a collector of the Greeble series, this is a wonderful addition and a must buy.
I didn't realize the product was for city scapes and not suitable for characters set in the city. Thanks for the clarification. What may be obvious to one person is not to the other. Good thing Daz has the forums where we can ask and get explanations.
Great description! I agree with you that good product descriptions are really necessary. I don't like to waste time looking for info and asking questions in the forums before I buy something. I love Stonemason's and Dimension Theory's products also and have a lot of them.
The video for iRadiance 2 isn't helpful as it only describes HDRI benefits generally. I have iRadiance 1 and found that the meshes, unlike HDRI domes, use a lot of memory so I only use them for small scenes like portraits because the renders are so slow. (I have a TitanX video card.)
It looks like it wasn't too hard to figure out.
The original poster makes a good point. I most certainly agree. I browse the forums seldomly but thought I might be the only one who felt this way. I've passed over many items for lack of description, etc... I guess enough sales are made the way things currently are though.
I think when you've been around as long as Stonemason and DT, just as with any expert in their field, it becomes more difficult to explain things in layman's terms (beginner to intermediate Daz users).
Phrases such as 'drive bokeh with depth of field' and 'HDR mesh lights' make immediate sense to PAs and other 3D professionals, but the hobbiest is sometimes left scratching his/her head.
Ultimately, however, if we like the renders enough, we'll ask around, learn and often purchase the product anyway (as I did with iRadiance, after DT and others explained a few things to me).
Seeing as how both products are currently trending in the #3 and #4 spot, it's safe to say they know what they're doing. I'm not in sales, but I bet quality promo images sell far more than descriptions, and are therefore a much better investment of PA time.
I think when you've been around as long as Stonemason and DT, just as with any expert in their field, it becomes more difficult to explain things in layman's terms
Not true. True mastery in any field makes it easier to explain, not more difficult.
If you have trouble explainingh something- it's because you don't know the subject well enough, not your audience.
If that was the case imagine the challenge of teaching someone something they don't know about. lol
So now think the opposite and say when you've been around and you are an expert shopper. lol
You do more than look at promo images when making a purchase.
And the intermediate Daz user KNOWS to read the descriptions.
AND Daz has unique nomenclature and requirements that have nothing to do with being a professional - in any field.
Rendering engine. You need to know if that product supports iRay/3d- better check.
Included items - You need to know what's included as a prop and what's just in the promo pic
Generation - you need to know if you can even USE THE ITEM.
Required additional purchase - better read that line carefully too.
All of the above is not a "professional" thing, that's a This is how the Daz store works.
And finally, I doubt Daz sales arent driven by "professionals" - you're better off catering to the widest base
and I'd wager they are, in fact, hobbyists.
And there's no reason NOT TO write a description for a product.
C'mon now.
1 and found that the meshes, unlike HDRI domes, use a lot of memory so I only use them for small scenes like portraits because the renders are so slow. (I have a TitanX video card.)
This is huge and good to know. I don't expect a disclaimer because once a buyer hears anything with render and slow (especially with iray) you are done for.
At least I now know a bit more from your information. Will still get it....as I do need something for close ups and emotive lighting.
This might get it done. I'll also begin to research the rest of the store's offerings.
Thank you.
I'm a huge fan of DT's lighing solutions, but I have to agree, I wish there was a promo image of the light patterns on Vol2 the way there was in Vol1, that made it a very easy purchase. Since I have Vol1 I already know what I'll be getting with Vol2, but others may not be able to tell from the promo images.
https://www.daz3d.com/iradiance-hdr-mesh-lights-for-iray
As for Stonemason's greebles4, I'm pretty much fine with the images on that promo page, my only gripe is that I expected the big arch as a block, it's very prominent and cool looking in the lead promo shot and frankly it's something that should have been included even if it is just a basic DS shape with a shader, I'm sure it's part of the appeal of the set to many who are purchasing the set.
So true! For instance, I always find it completely natural to talk with my friends about the influence of Kant's categorical imperative in the genealogy of contemporary approaches to aprioristical ethic models! Really, it's the best opener at clubs.
\\Sarcasm mode off.
While I agree with the original poster that lack of documentation and proper product descriptions are a boon not only to buyers but to those of us who are still learning, I also understand not only the difficulty in explaining something directed at a market that, overall, has not only some modicum of knowledge, but also a certain inclination to look for said knowledge. We are creating graphics with computers; that automatically implies computer literacy, Google and Wikipedia, not to mention the forums. It's extremely easy to assume a level of average competence that far outstrips what the typical user really knows.
Yes, many of us lack said competence--at least in certain areas--and we benefit from better descriptions and documentation, but in the two products we are talking about, both include proper information in the screenshots, both can be understood with a quick Google search without much of an issue and both could be compared to previous products in the series. Also, Stonemason's blocks are as straightforward as they come and I have learned a great deal about DS from Dimension Theory's documentation. Singling them out as some kind of an example of something wrong with the store isn't fair at all, nor conducive to making your point.
\\Ranting mode off.
Greetings,
This is just not true. Pedagogical skills are not correllated with skills in any given field.
Certainly the best teachers are those with strong pedagogical skills AND strong skills in a given field, but that's exceptionally uncommon. (There's even a snarky saying, 'Those who can, do. Those who can't...teach.' which illustrates this, even though it is (as all snarky sayings) not totally accurate.)
-- Morgan
completely natural to talk with my friends about the influence of Kant's categorical imperative
I don't know if this is really something to respond to. This would be the equivalent of suggesting I need to be able to have a deep conversation with Stonemason about 3-D modeling or photography concepts with DimensionTheory for either vendor to be able to explain in full (or better) detail what it is they are trying to sell me.
automatically implies computer literacy, Google and Wikipedia, not to mention the forums
Three points.
First computer literacy has no relation to this discussion as I am not asking them to explain how to use a mouse, open a window or start an app. I'm not asking for any definition to any word associated with their products. This is 3-D and not actual photography. I'm not buying bricks and planks. So yes, there is a translation, but just how much does any product model the real world?
Use Google is not what you tell a customer.
Use Wikipedia to look up what...HDRIs? Don't do that- that's NOT what his product is, it's similar but not that. And that is why the generic HDRI explainer videos tells us nothing about the actual product in question.
The Forums? Really. So I'm supposed to join and be active on a forum to get the proper information before I buy a product? That's the solution?
Sure, they may be a Tech Support "commercial release" thread that the PA runs and is active in. Oh, not for Stonemason's release. So now what?
AND if that's what a vendor uses for tech support, then say that in the description or link to that thread if possible.
If I am supposed to look at his previous release for information, why can't the Salesman Cut & Paste the relevant information and place it in the description for his new release?
Better that the customer do a search than he, himself create a product info paragraph?
You usually do that to explain WHY this one is EVEN BETTER than the last one.
What it does far and above the previous version...etc....
Unless that common sales tactic is not a common sales tactic. lol
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My complaint is relevant to two major products. If the general sumamry fits many other vendors so be it. Let's all tune in.
Every business, everywhere is about improving and getting better. I *could* have made a generic thread and mentioned no exact product and hinted at issues.
Maybe next time.
Business men aren't ruffled easily. An artist and their ego, maybe. Who cares? Improve, and look at everything sensible as a challenge and glady take our money in great sums.
I single these two out BECAUSE I'm a fan. I've already proved that with my dollar and various comments.
The whole point of a forum is to share ideas and opinions.
These are my opinions.
What's the worst that can happen?
Dimension - adds ONE MORE picture of the lighting props and says "These are the props you'll use?"
Makes an explainer video showing his product in use? That will do what to him and his product? Only help it.
Stonemason makes a generic copy and paste description of his greeble set - That sets him back how?
In this thread and several others, there are people with questions about products- I find it's the same dozen or so issues over and over again.
Why not address it? Someone make another promo pic with an elephant in it, please.
Or maybe a dead horse.
I wish there was a promo image of the light patterns on Vol2 the way there was in Vol1
Here...
I agree with avxp here. I assume that at least some PAs do this for money, so they really should make sure that their customers understand what these new products do. If some customers don't get it what this fancy new thing does, it's a high risk that they won't buy it. If PAs are really here for business, I hope they appreciate constructive feedback, and improve their marketing as long as that increases their sales and/or keeps their customers happy.
Whether it would help, and to what extent is open to debate from those that aren't PAs; the PAs know these things intimately, especially those that have been doing this for over a decade, like Stonemason. Sure, DimensionTheory could have done things differently, as could Stonemason, but ultimately only they know how much benefit detailed videos/descriptions might actually have.
I have to agree as well with @avxp as well. Not precisely about this products only, but about many products here in general. For me the problem isn't about knowledge. Clearly the PAs know their craft, there is no doubt about that. However, there's sometimes a problem comunicating what their product is, what it does and how to use it (sometimes only one of those is a miss, but other time all three are pretty vague --forcing those interested enough to go hunt for more information).
I'm sure the PAs themselves wouldn't complain if they were to increase their sells. And you can't underestimate the power of explaining your product successfully. Carefully crafted explanations can go a long way. Of course, the promos help. That's what hooks you. But think about this product like book or a movie. The promos are the cover/poster. If they're good, they'll get you to click on it and "find out more". The description should, therefore, be the summary of the book/movie (even better if there's video, but it's understandably more work). Those three paragraphs or that one minute video WILL sell you the product. At the end of the day, it's not about showing who knows more. It's about communicating your product better. Meaning, in ways that anyone and everyone can understand.
And although how many sales they've made is obviously an important number. One shouldn't ignore how many sales they might've lost or how many sales they could've made.
Simple explanations (ala for dummies way) can go a long way. Those who understand the product by just looking at the promos will and can just ignore the text/video. Those who don't, however, will gain understanding, appreciate the product more and probably give them the last nudge to hit that sweet "buy" button. If DAZ has hobbiest coming to buy (which I have a feeling are most of the buyers), then it would be wise to understand and truly target them. This is what sales and makerting is all about.
~But this, of course, is just my opion as someone who works in advertising and branding.
@giselle3000 I agree. I am not a hobbiest, nor do I work for Daz, but I thought I would share a few thoughts. At sixty-one I can assure you I have had multiple careers over the years, during which time I also owned and operated a brick and motar business that had to keep track of perishable and non-perishable inventory assets. I too have a background in advertising and branding and for six years worked for an international fortune 500 media company. I kept spreadsheets on clients. Old habits are hard to break. Now I keep various spreadsheets on all DS acquired and desired items. One of the spreadsheets calculates percentages derived from sales vs reg priced items. Another spreadsheet tracks who the vendor is, how much I paid, what the original price was and whether or not the item was reduced within 30 days. Another calculates other misc. formulas. Having spent $8k plus on Daz since the fall of 2016 I can assure you my spreadsheets for inventory tracking have been worth the time I invested in designing and maintaining them. They come in handy because I have a specific percentage of the regular price I am comfortable in spending. I find myself attracted to artists that expand on their product descriptions. I have prerequisites to clicking the add to my cart button, one of which is knowing the size. If I don't know the bump or template sizes I won't buy regardless of the artists' reputation or how much I want the item in question. If I am doubtful due to lack of information, I toss it in the wishlist. I don't buy. I could name each artist that expands on the product info and also call out those who don't but I won't. I can't count how many times I waivered, faltered and kissed an item goodbye and chose an alternate due to lack of communication on the product page. If I was buying an average of one item a day I could possibly try to approach the artist but I don't buy an average of one item a day. Believe it or not I have a spreadsheet dedicated to items I would buy BUT. I moved these from my overwhelming online Daz wishlist to a spreadsheet knowing unless they were giving them away, I wouldn't invest in them. Artists fall in love with their creations but at times us buyers see or perceive flaws and need reassurance that the product is what we imagine it to be. It would be so much simpler if we didn't have to imagine (or assume) what the product is or what it does. But it's our wallets and thank God we have so many alternate choices.
Missing the Greeble Arches too!
Wow, I assumed it was included, as you said, its been the most prominent picture of Greeble 4 since the beginning. It was the ONLY reason I put it in my wish list and I've been patiently watiing for it. Glad I saw this thread before I bought it. Oh well, that's money saved I guess.
I did question if I should include that main promo with the arches, the image is heavily postworked and uses models not inlcuded in the set(a caveat which is written on the image itself)..but then it's such a cool pic I couldn't resist.
the arch model itself only took 5 minutes to make,it has uv's stretched all over the place,the polycount is horrendously high..it just wasn't made as commercial content,and when you make something no one else will ever use you can cut every corner possible to make it work quickly for the image required,I figured the rest of the promos we're self explanatory,especialy the one that shows each block that comes with the set,
it's pointless to state these are background objects only as users will render them however they choose,I've seen previous blocks used as forground objects as much as they are used as I intended,(in the background).best I can do is try and make the textures work in close ups
the product page does have something called 'What's Included and Features' which lists everything that comes with the set,and that list corresponds to the image supplied which shows each block in the set
https://www.dropbox.com/s/oi8ml3d4pgjxtdl/Tube003.zip?dl=0 <there it is.it's just an obj,it's not scaled for D|S, it has no textures,the materials are not setup correctly,the polycount is way over the top,it has uv's stretched and they are not normalised...it was made only for that one image.
just don't tell anyone you got it from me :)
Thank you, its good of you to take the time to do that.
Its interesting to see how you put it together.
I imported it into DS using DS sizing and it comes in enormously large and it also comes in woith the opacity set to 0 so people need to alter that to be able to see it.
I really appreciate that all the greeble city blocks are in one mapped folder, makes it easier to work with all of them.
Ok, correction, they aren't. But most of them are in one of a few folders. ;)
there it is.it's just an obj,it's.....
You've done a man's job.
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Incredible thing to do. Just wow.
One thing to consider; unlike a brick and mortar store, or an online store where product lines come and go every few yers, as long as a given product has sales, amd is of reasonable quality, it will remain on sale here at DAZ3D, and PAs will continue to receive some form of income from it, so they would, in some case at least, be willing to sacrifice a few initial sales. This is especially true in cases where products are somewhat specialized, like DimensionTheory's lighting products or MECH4D's shaders, and to an extent some of Stonemason's products like the Greeble City Blocks.
Thanks Stonemason!
BTW in Greeble City 3 blocks the picture for SMCGBlock60 is WRONG and is the same picture as 59 when I view in the smart content.
Just got around to seeing this, thank you Stonemason!