Under and Above Water
missuskisses
Posts: 918
I'd like to compose a scene that is primarily under water during daylight, but angled in such a way that we also catch a glimpse of what is happening above ground, but through underwater lens (so the figures would be rippling, hazy, etc.). Are there any products that would help with this? I see products for under water (mostly 3delight), but not anything that explicitly states that it would work with nearby above-water figures. I like the way the Beneath the Waves product looks, though I'm looking less for a straight-on above & below water view, and more for a below water, angling up view.
A lot of the sets that happen to include bodies of water also seem to concentrate on above-water cams where the figures may look realistic when partially under water, but I'm not sure the reverse would work.
Thoughts/advice appreciated!
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Comments
You might want to specify what program you are using as products for Bryce are not too compatible with prooducts or DS and vice versa.
I would be interested in under water environments for DS myself. been working on a similiar underwater scene and I am not getting the results I would like, no matter how much tweaking I do.
Would prefer DS products (and Iray), but am willing to look to other programs like Bryce (or, within DS, 3Delight products) to achieve what I need.
There isn't much.
Probably the best thing to do would be to use a product like ron's waterline. You could do a render of your choice then apply a wave or waterline product in Photoshop to achieve an underwater look.
Here is the water line product http://www.daz3d.com/rons-waterline
Thanks Serene, but I prefer to not use post if at all possible.
Playing around with this product, Laguna: Underwater Lights for Iray, I got a decent amount of murkyness, but still far from what I am wanting
I tried this, made a big cube, set the camera at the bottom looking up at an angle. Then applied the default water shader with a normal map for ripple affect and a ski HDRI. It looked pretty good, but was too clear around the camera from the depths going up. I tried the fern lake water shader which is volumetric and that did not work at all.
Yes, thanks for the suggestion, Serene, and I myself always use post anyway in Photoshop. Nevertheless, Ron's Waterline would not be what I need, since my entire scene would be underwater; even the above-water portion would be viewed from under water. Technically it's not a "waterline" that I would need.
Are you talking about such a set?
Simply used the water shader. My set is a small pool I created for some tests.
I haven't found an iray product that really looks good underwater. Even the special lights just don't do it for me... they add a little color and mild caustics but it really didn't look like water.
As far as waterline goes the beauty of it is that the layers are large and you need no show the top waterline if you don't want.
I think this is one area 3delight might do a bit better. Hard as it is for me to admit
Looks good and thanks for the image. I am looking more for ocean environments. I can get the same effect you have with the pool, but in the ocean it looks off having it be that clear.
AndyS--that looks pretty good. You just used the water shader, you said? Could you please elaborate on what you did? Also, is that 3Delight or Iray? My scene would be in a pond, so I would also probably want murkier/dirtier water, but otherwise, looks good.
Thanks!
My Iray pack (in sig) has water shaders, including one I designed to use underwater. Mind you, in Iray I find you have to tweak a few things in every scene to get the effect you want.
http://www.daz3d.com/forums/discussion/comment/1965486/#Comment_1965486
I did this in DS. I used a cube with a material for the top. I added a water shader to it then a tiling normal map on the top. I put the camera just outside the cube at the "waterline."
Mec4D's IRay Shaders Vol 2 has a selection of volumetric water shaders that have varying degrees of "murkiness":
http://www.daz3d.com/mec4d-pbs-shaders-vol-2-for-iray
Yup - hers are awesome.
Thanks for all the suggestions! Been using some shaders but having some problems still with rendering. I'm trying to read up on past underwater forum posts some more. Specifically, having problems with reflections if camera placed outside body of water, and having problems with too much murkiness, or lots of distortion if camera placed within body of water...
Hi,
already in 3Delight I did some experiments to get my waterponds murkey. But the Uber Volume shaders slowed the render engine dramatically down. It looked pretty good but never succeeded to really finish a render.
Now with iRay I first learnt about reflection and refraction of water and found a still not solved bug in DAZ related to a part of the refraction effect. But it didn't stop me investigating.
So the next topic was the murkyness. Here you have to use the section of Transmission & Scattering in the iRay shader.
First by incident I stumbled about the depth dependant intensifying of the water color. That's what you see over here:
http://andysanderson.deviantart.com/art/Example-about-the-Transmission-Effect-597431537
But this is not realistic enough. In real there are very small particles in the water blocking and scattering the more light the deeper the ray has to enter.
This effect is better covered by the scattering parameters. So it even was possible to visualize the beam of a light source under water as you may remember from swimmingpools at night.
So I played around with those parameters and documented the steps in the pictures of this album:
You find the corresponding settings in same order as the pictures. --> http://sta.sh/22578agvcrub
Combined with the great waves shader of William this should give a "perfect" setup.
I believe that part of the problem in viewing objects above the water from beneath is due to the fact that sometimes such objects are simply not visible from below water in the real world. Apart from the obvious limitations imposed by murky waters, which restrict visibility both above and below the water, there are also the effects of refraction and reflection. At some angles, looking up at a smooth, calm water's surface produces a mirror effect. If the surface is disturbed by ripples or waves, the combination of reflection and refraction may make viewing objects above the surface difficult to impossible as well. At best the objects would appear broken or disjointed, to a degree that makes them almost unrecognizable. And then there is the issue of refraction that "displaces" objects above the surface and may place them outside the field of view. Depth of the camera would also affect what can be seen. A diver could probably offer some insight into what you can see from under the surface under various circumstances, if there are any around. Looking up is certainly not going to be like looking through a window. I suspect that a realistic effect might be achieved by using a flat rectangular primitive at the water's surface, with the correct surface settings for refraction and reflection and the correct thickness. For ripples or waves the plane could be morphed to simulate that.
Often, in rendering realistic scenes I believe that we often trip over the difference between what we wish to depict and what would actually be the case in the real world.
Yeah. I've so often looked at stuff and gone 'wow, that render looks stupid. ... ... oh. right.'
Like the obvious lighting mistakes in the clouds over there.
Further to my suggestion of using a rectangular primitive to achieve the desired effect, I found this interesting real world example, if somewhat contrived:
http://glamgrid.com/leandro-erlichs-swimming-pool-allows-you-to-breathe-underwater/
I'm OK with the surface scene being near unrecognizable, as long as there are hints of what's going on. I'm working on a Chinese mythical scene, and those who know the myth or look into it will know what's going on above water. I'm also OK with not fully realistic depiction of water and the interaction with light, etc., since (1) it's going to be very much a fantasy scene in terms of what's going on under water and (2) a lot of what I have seen available doesn't look fully "right" anyway.
What I'm trying to solve by looking through other tutorials right now is the fact that I can't even get the underwater portion right right now. With the camera inside the cylinder, the scene is either murky or rippling beyond recognition; outside the cylinder I'm getting strange reflections. More testing and work to be done!
Thanks for sharing, because I really like what you've done there. Just can't seem to duplicate it myself yet...working on it!
I actually tried to do this with a shaded plane within Daz, but failed. I'm sure someone more skilled could pull this off, but I haven't been able to do it yet!
thanks for all the great info in this thread and thanks for starting this thread gelato. While I didn't get the desired results I was after initially, I did get a render out of it of a different underwater scene at a different angle with no postwork, so it wasn't a total lose and I have some WIP scenes still trying to get the result I am after.
"lots of distortion if camera placed within body of water"
That's actually quite normal in the real world. The solution is to use a fisheye lens (thus, the origin of the term) to compensate. I'm not certain whether anyone has come up with a virtual camera with a fisheye lens or not, but it might be worth looking for.
easiest way: place the camera in a cube and apply the same water shader to it, but without glossyness and without surface-bump (of cause!).
That's how I did it in my post.
And yes: In the lower part you have the total reflection with upwards changing into the re-refracted picture of what was outside the pool.
@gelato: simply have a look at the parameters shown in the image in my sta.sh link.
FSMCDesigns--Very nice! Glad you were able to get your scene to work.
SixDs--Ahhh...will try that tonight. Thank you for the suggestion!
AndyS--Same...will try that tonight, too. Thank you very much also!
Thanks to everyone who helped me! Ended up using a cube of water and a plane on top of that. But since I'm more comfortable in Photoshop, I did a lot more there. Definitely not realistic realistic but some degree of verisimilitude. Attached the before-paint image, and put up some in-progress shots at https://www.artstation.com/artwork/KJn1y. Again, thank you all very much for your help!
A great degree of verisimilitude, I'd say! Now i can also say that I used that word.
I like the effect you achieved with the building, dock and the guy above the surface - works for me.
Haha, and thanks for all the help again!