Legal Questions that have probably been asked before...

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  • nemesis10nemesis10 Posts: 3,790
    mrinal said:
    nemesis10 said:
    mrinal said:
    nemesis10 said:
    nemesis10 said:
    static said:

    This raises another question for me.  What about the basic shaders that come with Daz Studio, like the Iray thin glass shader. Are they considered MRs?  By definition, anyone who uses Daz to render already owns them.  Can I include them as presets for a model I sell?

    That's a good question? If we don't create the shader, how can they be used?

    You used the magic words "create the shader"... the shaders such as ubershader  or the iray shader can be used to create a character and you can include material sets using those shaders  with your product  but you can't includere the actual Daz iray shader withg your presets as a freebie without DAZ3d's permission. The preset for for thin glass alone is Daz3d; a preset for your character's cornea using the settings for thin wall.  A more literal example are Macro Eyes and N.G.S. Anagenesis.  Macro Eyes is a lovely product but is not a merchant resource so you can't create new characters, replace the textures, and sell them with the new character.  Anagenesis is merchant resource so you could create a new character, apply the skin effect, and then sell it as is.

    So if I understand you correctly, I can use the shader settings for "thin glass" as one of the surfaces in a model that I sell.  What I can't do is sell the settings as a shader.itself.

    Exactly!

     

    How is a shader "preset" different from selling pose "preset" if we ignore the textures and maps? Couldn't it be just possible to sell/distribute a bunch of preconfigured "dials" that refers to materials from the underlying base library (but are not packaged as part of the product itself)? Just like a G3F/M pose requires a base G3F/M base character.

    I'm not sure I completely understand but if your product doesn't contain anyone else's product, you should be in the clear. What would be dodgy would be to "borrow" partial poses from someone else's product.  People have made alternate textures and poses since this hobby started.  Poses can be sold specifically for Genesis 3 Female for example... I hope I understood your question.

    What I was referring to is a shader preset with a set of settings only without distributing any textures or maps but referring to those textures/maps from an underlying library that say, ships with the studio itself like the ubershaders. It could be called presets for the ubershaders just like light presets or pose presets. I am not entirely sure if anyone has done this before.

    I'm not sure anyone has either; the closest thing I can think of are the various iray converters like the Human Shader, or products that rearrange things like the Cayman products so it looks pretty legal.

  • nicsttnicstt Posts: 11,715
    edited January 2017
    static said:

    I am thinking of buying another Merchant Resource Kit. I have purchased these in the past, but use them just to give my renders a different look. I am recently dipping into the idea of content creation and I don't quite understand the legal ramifications in some of these items.

    Most MRs state that I can use their material in my own creations to sell. Then they say I must change the maps first to make them my own. This sounds a bit contradictory, or at least confusing... Isn't this exactly the same as anything else (EDIT: any other MR or similar product) I buy?

    I mean, from what I understand, I could legally take anything at all (EDIT: Any MR or similar product), make enough changes to the base product and sell the outcome as my own creation, right?

    And what do they mean by changing the maps?

    A little help please so I don't get in over my head.

    I think you've been well answered.

    I would add something to the 'changing the merchant resource'; they (the PAs selling MR), require that it been changed.

    ... But why wouldn't you want to? If you don't then it's no different than anyone else who doesn't change it and so devalues your product.

    The idea is you make something customers want to buy; something offering your vision and your style of art - just look at what PAs do, especially the more successful ones, but almost all (and probably all) of Daz's PAs have their own style.

    I've returned products when I've realised they've used a MR, if I felt (when comparing to others a PA has produced) it offered little variance.

    ... And hear's the crux, I object to buying repeat copies of MR dirivitive products if the PA hasn't done something interesting with it. And my own personal POV, is it should cost less. So again, if it is the same price as someone usuing original texutes, then I also consider what does it do that the one with the original textures does not?

    Post edited by nicstt on
  • static said:

    Ok, I can see the point of not giving them away.

    But what's the difference between changing a texture for a dress and changing the texture for a skin? Lot's of people make and sell textures for clothes but there are no MRs for that. At least none I've seen. I know I'm missing something here, but I don't know what it is.

    I just don't want to cross any lines or step on any toes. What good is selling something if I'm going to lose it all in legal battles, right? I just want to make sure I do it right.

    There are tons of merchant resources for texturing clothes. Look at the store here for any shader preset pack that is designated for Merchant Resource. I've got some, Fisty has some, The3dWizard has some, there are others. Also, there are tons and tons of 2D digital fabric packs, typically sets of seamless tiles out there, for sale or free, specifically authorizing you to use them to texture clothing with them. You will see the caveat "all textures must be baked to a texture map." This is to prevent someone from redistributing the original seamless tile. Here is a little example picture of what that means. Carefully double check the terms of use for any merchant resource you are interested in.

     

    baked to map.jpg
    914 x 682 - 579K
  • ArtiniArtini Posts: 10,313
    edited January 2017

    You can also look, what the other sellers use during creation of their character/skin products.

    They most likely using many sources for the underlying textures, and not the only one merchant resource, itself.

    One can also use some kind of texture/maps generators, like Filter Forge, to create royalty free textures - may be not for the character skin, yet.

     

    Post edited by Artini on
  • ArtiniArtini Posts: 10,313

    Even more tricky ones are items for sale containing background images - still could not find the proper way of using them without being afraid of their licences limitations.

  • icprncssicprncss Posts: 3,694

    For MR's, read the read me.  It should spell out exactly what is required.  Some merchants want you to alter the maps by more than 50% to make them "yours".  If the Read Me is not clear, best bet is to contact the artist and get clarification.  Best to get it in writing to protect yourself and your work.  Most texture artists use human resource photos to alter the human texture MR's.  If I were using a texture MR in a product, I would run it through a plugin like Filter Forge in Photoshop to make it unique.  There are some sites that have textures you can use without altering. 

    As for shaders aka material or shader room set ups, it's a tough area.  If a product is listed as an MR, follow the vendors guidelines.  If the product is not listed as one, it's safest to assume it is property of the creator.  If you need to use it or want to use, contact the artist and get permission. 

    It's been many years since the last copyright scandal happened.  They used to be more common but they did happen.  I have a number of textues from older models that I ended up having to delete because the artist used parts of other artists work to make theirs. 

  • staticstatic Posts: 325
    nicstt said:

    I think you've been well answered.

    I would add something to the 'changing the merchant resource'; they (the PAs selling MR), require that it been changed.

    ... But why wouldn't you want to? If you don't then it's no different than anyone else who doesn't change it and so devalues your product.

    The idea is you make something customers want to buy; something offering your vision and your style of art - just look at what PAs do, especially the more successful ones, but almost all (and probably all) of Daz's PAs have their own style.

    I've returned products when I've realised they've used a MR, if I felt (when comparing to others a PA has produced) it offered little variance.

    ... And hear's the crux, I object to buying repeat copies of MR dirivitive products if the PA hasn't done something interesting with it. And my own personal POV, is it should cost less. So again, if it is the same price as someone usuing original texutes, then I also consider what does it do that the one with the original textures does not?

    It's not a matter of not wanting to, it's a matter of how much. I mean, some skins would look great with just a few more shadows or a mole or other imperfection, while others you'd want to change al,ost entirely. That also comes down to the limits of my artistry, which is to say great. I do not count myself among even the group you would call strained artists. I have to do what I can do with care and time and even then, I often botch the job. So, If I can't do this with any level of starter (other than the chalk outline, it's going to take me a lot of time, a lot. However, be that as it may, if that's what it takes then so be it. I can perservere. That's the one thing I am good at. improving ever so slowly over long periods of time. I'm in no hurry, I just need to know I'm not wasting time doing something I cannot do anyway.

    If I like the color, can I keep it and just add more to it, if I like a scar but it's a bit too deep or not long enough, if I prefer the nose and chin but hate the cheeks and brows, how much do I have to change it or do I have to start from scratch?

    The evidence suggests I have to start from scratch, so it will be a while before I can make anything that I can sell. I was hopinmg I could look forward to 3D as a means of supplementing disability, but I will stay content with making images to use on personal magnets, coasters, and household items for now. But I won't give up. I will llive forever or die trying so that gives me plenty of time to learn, right?

  • staticstatic Posts: 325

    There are tons of merchant resources for texturing clothes. Look at the store here for any shader preset pack that is designated for Merchant Resource. I've got some, Fisty has some, The3dWizard has some, there are others. Also, there are tons and tons of 2D digital fabric packs, typically sets of seamless tiles out there, for sale or free, specifically authorizing you to use them to texture clothing with them. You will see the caveat "all textures must be baked to a texture map." This is to prevent someone from redistributing the original seamless tile. Here is a little example picture of what that means. Carefully double check the terms of use for any merchant resource you are interested in.

    I've been collecting some stuff over the years, but when you collect it for personal use, you kind of skip over the caveats. I'll have to reread the readmes and see whats up. My needs require the cost to be as low as possible, and I've seen stuff that is truly amazing, but so is the price. Don't get me wrong, they deserve to make their money off their stuff, but I have to eat Hershey's instead of Gadiva because my wallet is allergic.

    And... that's another point I am not quite settled on yet... Every 3D program calls their methods by another name, Materials are Textures, Magnets are Morphs, Z is Zed, and existential transcombobulation is rendering... What is baking?

  • staticstatic Posts: 325
    icprncss said:

    For MR's, read the read me.  It should spell out exactly what is required.  Some merchants want you to alter the maps by more than 50% to make them "yours".  If the Read Me is not clear, best bet is to contact the artist and get clarification.  Best to get it in writing to protect yourself and your work.  Most texture artists use human resource photos to alter the human texture MR's.  If I were using a texture MR in a product, I would run it through a plugin like Filter Forge in Photoshop to make it unique.  There are some sites that have textures you can use without altering. 

    As for shaders aka material or shader room set ups, it's a tough area.  If a product is listed as an MR, follow the vendors guidelines.  If the product is not listed as one, it's safest to assume it is property of the creator.  If you need to use it or want to use, contact the artist and get permission. 

    It's been many years since the last copyright scandal happened.  They used to be more common but they did happen.  I have a number of textues from older models that I ended up having to delete because the artist used parts of other artists work to make theirs. 

    Sorry for the multiple posts, but I don't know how to add a quote inside of an already quoted post.

    How exactly do I get in touch with the creator's. I mean, yes, usually there are things in the readme, but I have found that not always to be the case from site to site. If an artist does not leave contact info, is their any way to go through DAZ to find them, or am I just out of luck?

     

    P.S. Thank you all for all the great comments, I'm learning a lot about this.

  • nemesis10nemesis10 Posts: 3,790
    static said:

    There are tons of merchant resources for texturing clothes. Look at the store here for any shader preset pack that is designated for Merchant Resource. I've got some, Fisty has some, The3dWizard has some, there are others. Also, there are tons and tons of 2D digital fabric packs, typically sets of seamless tiles out there, for sale or free, specifically authorizing you to use them to texture clothing with them. You will see the caveat "all textures must be baked to a texture map." This is to prevent someone from redistributing the original seamless tile. Here is a little example picture of what that means. Carefully double check the terms of use for any merchant resource you are interested in.

    I've been collecting some stuff over the years, but when you collect it for personal use, you kind of skip over the caveats. I'll have to reread the readmes and see whats up. My needs require the cost to be as low as possible, and I've seen stuff that is truly amazing, but so is the price. Don't get me wrong, they deserve to make their money off their stuff, but I have to eat Hershey's instead of Gadiva because my wallet is allergic.

    And... that's another point I am not quite settled on yet... Every 3D program calls their methods by another name, Materials are Textures, Magnets are Morphs, Z is Zed, and existential transcombobulation is rendering... What is baking?

    Baking is the process of taking all the procedural stuff and flattening to a single texture... for example, let's say you use a merchant resource of denim cloth which you create some tears and use another resource of rivets and zipper.  The final product can not exist of the separate parts; they must be flattened to single maps rather than procedural layers like (L.I.E) which could be extracted and reused by someone unscrupulous.

  • staticstatic Posts: 325
    edited January 2017

    So, as long as the requirements stated by the authur say, for instance "you must change something to make it your own" I could just add rips and tears to a pair of jeans as long as the finished texture is a single flattened layer? Or, at least any part of the layer I got their material from?

     

    Post edited by static on
  • nemesis10nemesis10 Posts: 3,790
    static said:

    So, as long as the requirements stated by the authur say, for instance "you must change something to make it your own" I could just add rips and tears to a pair of jeans as long as the finished texture is a single flattened layer? Or, at least any part of the layer I got their material from?

     

    Sort of.... I would avoid thinking of it as how little work you can get away with to make it legal  and more like access to raw material to make a unique product; people think of legal issues like laws of nature while they are closer to negotiations.  A good rule of thumb tht most people here would appreciate is that we should have to ask what merchant resource you used rather than be able to figure it out because so little has been changed.  A good example to look at is the FW skin merchant resources vs his actual characters sold in store or think about what you would say to a student using a library about how much copying constitutes plagarism.  The point is for your creation to be transformative which does have grey areas but most people should be able tell the difference between minimal changes and real artistic work.

  • FSMCDesignsFSMCDesigns Posts: 12,844
    static said:

    So, as long as the requirements stated by the authur say, for instance "you must change something to make it your own" I could just add rips and tears to a pair of jeans as long as the finished texture is a single flattened layer? Or, at least any part of the layer I got their material from?

     

    Not sure I understand, but to try and clarify. When it comes to textures for clothing and props, "your" new texture can't include the old texture, even if it was a layer and you combined it with your texture edits. That is still considered a derivative work. You can use the old texture as an underlaying layer and guide for your new edits, but then you need to delete that layer before saving.. Ideally for any new textures you create, you would use a UV template to create your new edit on.

    As for as character creation from a merchant resource, if you intend to sell it anywhere you will need to make it as different and unique as you can as far away from the original merchant resource as you can. Otherwise it is of little benefit or use to potential customers

  • nemesis10nemesis10 Posts: 3,790
    static said:

    So, as long as the requirements stated by the authur say, for instance "you must change something to make it your own" I could just add rips and tears to a pair of jeans as long as the finished texture is a single flattened layer? Or, at least any part of the layer I got their material from?

     

    Not sure I understand, but to try and clarify. When it comes to textures for clothing and props, "your" new texture can't include the old texture, even if it was a layer and you combined it with your texture edits. That is still considered a derivative work. You can use the old texture as an underlaying layer and guide for your new edits, but then you need to delete that layer before saving.. Ideally for any new textures you create, you would use a UV template to create your new edit on.

    As for as character creation from a merchant resource, if you intend to sell it anywhere you will need to make it as different and unique as you can as far away from the original merchant resource as you can. Otherwise it is of little benefit or use to potential customers

    There are a few fabric merchant resources which are the exception; they should each have a readme with specifics but the gist is that you are using the resource as a template rather than a good in itself.

  • staticstatic Posts: 325

    Ok, that's what I thought we were at earlier. just wanted to be sure. As I said, I'm not looking to do "how little work you can get away with to make it legal" but in one or two instances that's all I want to do, so I'll just leave that off the sales floor, so to speak... my use only. The rest I will do my best to make it a worthwhile effort to be worthy of someone else's money. I do all or at the very least "most" of the work, then I can sell. I tweak a bit for my taste, I use it for my renders alone. What ever I can sell has to be sold in such a manner that other's work cannot be pulled apart from mine if I use their framework. I do as much unique work as possible and avoid legal issues. Am I getting closer?

  • nemesis10nemesis10 Posts: 3,790
    static said:

    Ok, that's what I thought we were at earlier. just wanted to be sure. As I said, I'm not looking to do "how little work you can get away with to make it legal" but in one or two instances that's all I want to do, so I'll just leave that off the sales floor, so to speak... my use only. The rest I will do my best to make it a worthwhile effort to be worthy of someone else's money. I do all or at the very least "most" of the work, then I can sell. I tweak a bit for my taste, I use it for my renders alone. What ever I can sell has to be sold in such a manner that other's work cannot be pulled apart from mine if I use their framework. I do as much unique work as possible and avoid legal issues. Am I getting closer?

    You are... Once you have completed your project, you get to talk to the store you are selling to such as Daz3d or Renderosity and, when you tell them what resources you used and how you use them, they will tell you if it is legal enough for you. One great place to start is to look up Sickleyield in DeviantArt who has written profusely about being a vendor and various topics about the nuts and bolts of selling something such as http://sickleyield.deviantart.com/journal/Copyright-Issues-336384544.  

  • staticstatic Posts: 325

    Ok, thanks. I appreciate all your input.

  • What I'm confused about are MR in relation to games. Suppose someone releases a set of morphs as MR's. Someone can make a character using them and sell that charater. If they also sell a game license, then someone can buy the character and use that charater in a game. Now... is it ok to just not sell the charater and bake the MR morph(s) directly and use it in a game? Right now, I stay away from anything that doesn't have a game license, but I think it's unclear how far you can go with MR.

    I've seen textures MR state that they're primarily designed for use in games. The seller doesn't sell a game license. Can they be used in games? I don't know.

     

  • nemesis10nemesis10 Posts: 3,790

    What I'm confused about are MR in relation to games. Suppose someone releases a set of morphs as MR's. Someone can make a character using them and sell that charater. If they also sell a game license, then someone can buy the character and use that charater in a game. Now... is it ok to just not sell the charater and bake the MR morph(s) directly and use it in a game? Right now, I stay away from anything that doesn't have a game license, but I think it's unclear how far you can go with MR.

    I've seen textures MR state that they're primarily designed for use in games. The seller doesn't sell a game license. Can they be used in games? I don't know.

     

    That is exactly the sort of question that Daz support can answer for you before you buy something without having to guess.... 

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