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Daz Game Developer License: required use of online store

Sensual ArtSensual Art Posts: 645
edited January 2017 in The Commons

I see that in section 3.0 of the EULA there is a statement:

-------------------------------------------

User may access, use, copy, and modify the Content to create one or more derived or additional three-dimensional works provided that:
...
upon receipt of a written request from Daz, User immediately ceases any and all distribution of the art that User has created from the CRT Content, if Daz has determined, in its sole discretion, that (i) such art is substantially similar to or is a clone of existing Content; or (ii) such derived or additional work fails to require the use of Content available through the online Daz store.

-------------------------------------------

My concern is regarding item (ii) above. If I use a CRT Content (DO item) in-game, is it mandatory that the end-users of the game should also need to purchase the same content from Daz online store? For example, say I have the Daz GDL and I buy an ogre from the store and use it in game after modifications. Do the end users of the game also need to buy the ogre from the Daz store? If yes, then the ogre out-of-store may not be usable in-game since its not in a game-ready state. If not, then what is the intention of the second clause? Or, in another terms, what scenarios does the second clause meant to exclude?

Also, since the second clause is behind an OR conjunction, does it mean that failing to meet that requirement alone could be considered a sufficient reason for violation?

Note to mods: I have already raised a CS ticket for this query. In the meanwhile, I am trying to understand how others "interprete" this particular clause of the EULA.

Post edited by Sensual Art on
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Comments

  • nonesuch00nonesuch00 Posts: 18,729
    edited January 2017
    mrinal said:

    I see that in section 3.0 of the EULA there is a statement:

    -------------------------------------------

    User may access, use, copy, and modify the Content to create one or more derived or additional three-dimensional works provided that:
    ...
    upon receipt of a written request from Daz, User immediately ceases any and all distribution of the art that User has created from the CRT Content, if Daz has determined, in its sole discretion, that (i) such art is substantially similar to or is a clone of existing Content; or (ii) such derived or additional work fails to require the use of Content available through the online Daz store.

    -------------------------------------------

    My concern is regarding item (ii) above. If I use a CRT Content (DO item) in-game, is it mandatory that the end-users of the game should also need to purchase the same content from Daz online store? For example, say I have the Daz GDL and I buy an ogre from the store and use it in game after modifications. Do the end users of the game also need to buy the ogre from the Daz store? If yes, then the ogre out-of-store may not be usable in-game since its not in a game-ready state. If not, then what is the intention of the second clause? Or, in another terms, what scenarios does the second clause meant to exclude?

    Also, since the second clause is behind an OR conjunction, does it mean that failing to meet that requirement alone could be considered a sufficient reason for violation?

    Note to mods: I have already raised a CS ticket for this query. In the meanwhile, I am trying to understand how others "interprete" this particular clause of the EULA.

    That's a bizarre clause, but really, let their support ask the person who wrote the EULA clarify it and note that despite the claim that is you see that is common in the EULAs, that the business entity that wrote the EULA, 'in it's sole discretion', can be the final word on the legality of it's EULA requirements is false. Everybody has to anwser to the laws of their jurisdiction, businesses too. Owning a business and dictating an EULA is not a way to circumvent the laws of the jurisdictions they do business in.

    Post edited by nonesuch00 on
  • CypherFOXCypherFOX Posts: 3,401
    edited January 2017

    Greetings,

    I interpret that section as being specifically for derived 3D objects that are independantly for sale.

    <example>In other words, it's okay for Lady Littlefox to create Melody for A3 as a derivative of Aiko 3, and sell her as a morph, but it's NOT okay to sell her as a standalone figure.  So, since Melody was originally a standalone figure (sold on a different site) modeled off of (but not morphed from) Aiko 3, Lady Littlefox used an encryption program to encrypt the content to the Aiko 3 file.  So you had to have the DAZ Aiko 3 figure, not as a base character, but as a decryption key.  Thus the use of Melody requires the use of Content available through the online DAZ store.</example>

    That clause is essentially the same as the earlier clause in the General License Agreement, but because the CRT section lays out the requirements for using 'CRT Content', sections which need to be duplicated between the General and Commercial Real-Time parts have to specifically call out 'CRT Content' or potentially be considered as 'missing', which would open a (tiny, IMO, but IANAL) arguable hole that if you had a CRT license you could create derivative content for sale without 'requiring the use of Content available through the online Daz store'.

    tl;dr - That section exists to provide the same protections against creating for-sale derivative content as the general license, but applying it specifically to CRT content.

    --  Morgan

    Edit: Specifically the earlier text, 'This section replaces Section 1.0 Bullet 5: “TERMS OF USE” for CRT Content ONLY. ' means that all subsidiary clauses of 'Bullet 5' need to be present in the new one, even if they're substantially the same as the previous, otherwise 'replace' would mean 'deleted'.

    Post edited by CypherFOX on
  • nonesuch00nonesuch00 Posts: 18,729
    CypherFOX said:

    Greetings,

    I interpret that section as being specifically for derived 3D objects that are independantly for sale.

    <example>In other words, it's okay for Lady Littlefox to create Melody for A3 as a derivative of Aiko 3, and sell her as a morph, but it's NOT okay to sell her as a standalone figure.  So, since Melody was originally a standalone figure (sold on a different site) modeled off of (but not morphed from) Aiko 3, Lady Littlefox used an encryption program to encrypt the content to the Aiko 3 file.  So you had to have the DAZ Aiko 3 figure, not as a base character, but as a decryption key.  Thus the use of Melody requires the use of Content available through the online DAZ store.</example>

    That clause is essentially the same as the earlier clause in the General License Agreement, but because the CRT section lays out the requirements for using 'CRT Content', sections which need to be duplicated between the General and Commercial Real-Time parts have to specifically call out 'CRT Content' or potentially be considered as 'missing', which would open a (tiny, IMO, but IANAL) arguable hole that if you had a CRT license you could create derivative content for sale without 'requiring the use of Content available through the online Daz store'.

    tl;dr - That section exists to provide the same protections against creating for-sale derivative content as the general license, but applying it specifically to CRT content.

    --  Morgan

     

    OK, so if that's what they mean that means you just can't export a DAZ Original character and sell it in the Unity Asset Store or sell it as an IAP in your game even though exporting it to a game engine breaks compatibility with other existing DAZ Store content. 

  • CypherFOXCypherFOX Posts: 3,401

    Greetings,

    nonesuch00 said:

    OK, so if that's what they mean that means you just can't export a DAZ Original character and sell it in the Unity Asset Store or sell it as an IAP in your game even though exporting it to a game engine breaks compatibility with other existing DAZ Store content. 

    Just to be clear, IAP is expressly disallowed without written permission from Daz, in an earlier clause of the CRT license.  But yes, that's how I interpret it.

    --  Morgan

     

  • nonesuch00nonesuch00 Posts: 18,729
    CypherFOX said:

    Greetings,

    nonesuch00 said:

    OK, so if that's what they mean that means you just can't export a DAZ Original character and sell it in the Unity Asset Store or sell it as an IAP in your game even though exporting it to a game engine breaks compatibility with other existing DAZ Store content. 

    Just to be clear, IAP is expressly disallowed without written permission from Daz, in an earlier clause of the CRT license.  But yes, that's how I interpret it.

    --  Morgan

     

    Thanks. I knew those rules, those make sense, but the wording of that clause ii) is bizarre.

  • Sensual ArtSensual Art Posts: 645

     

    CypherFOX said:

    Greetings,

    I interpret that section as being specifically for derived 3D objects that are independantly for sale.

    <example>In other words, it's okay for Lady Littlefox to create Melody for A3 as a derivative of Aiko 3, and sell her as a morph, but it's NOT okay to sell her as a standalone figure.  So, since Melody was originally a standalone figure (sold on a different site) modeled off of (but not morphed from) Aiko 3, Lady Littlefox used an encryption program to encrypt the content to the Aiko 3 file.  So you had to have the DAZ Aiko 3 figure, not as a base character, but as a decryption key.  Thus the use of Melody requires the use of Content available through the online DAZ store.</example>

    That clause is essentially the same as the earlier clause in the General License Agreement, but because the CRT section lays out the requirements for using 'CRT Content', sections which need to be duplicated between the General and Commercial Real-Time parts have to specifically call out 'CRT Content' or potentially be considered as 'missing', which would open a (tiny, IMO, but IANAL) arguable hole that if you had a CRT license you could create derivative content for sale without 'requiring the use of Content available through the online Daz store'.

    tl;dr - That section exists to provide the same protections against creating for-sale derivative content as the general license, but applying it specifically to CRT content.

    --  Morgan

    Edit: Specifically the earlier text, 'This section replaces Section 1.0 Bullet 5: “TERMS OF USE” for CRT Content ONLY. ' means that all subsidiary clauses of 'Bullet 5' need to be present in the new one, even if they're substantially the same as the previous, otherwise 'replace' would mean 'deleted'.

    Thanks Morgan. I can understand how that is relevant for content which is being sold from another store as it must require the base character to function. But how does one use a base character (say, one based on Aiko 7) as a decryption key within a game engine i.e. in the context of a video game? All I would use is a rigged mesh of Aiko 7 character that may have been modified using morphs or otherwise to avoid identification. And as a developer, I would have already purchased the relevant Aiko 7 base character and its associated morphs. Does the end user of my video game also need to purchase the same base character (i.e. Aiko 7) along with its morphs from the Daz store to use that character in-game (I am not referring to IAP)? Does it not, in a way, mandate providing citation to original figures. Worse, does it not require end user to purchase it as well?

     

  • Sensual ArtSensual Art Posts: 645

    I can understand this need for Daz to ensure that other stores (that are exclusively selling 3D figures to be used across a variety of applications) must include (or necessitate) base figures to be purchased from Daz store. This is probably done in-order to retain the intellectual property and protect Genesis as a brand. But how would you convince a video game player (end-user who may not have any knowledge of 3D modeling) to buy a Daz figure, let alone force him to buy it from the Daz store. (A bit off-topic but with the prices that Daz charges for the base figures may instead dissuade the player from buying the game itself in the first place)

    If one factors in the additional costs of the base figure and other assets from Daz store that would be needed to play just an interactive game, it would put the price of the game much beyond the price brackets of most AAA games,

    Am I even thinking on the same wavelength?

     

  • nonesuch00nonesuch00 Posts: 18,729
    mrinal said:

    I can understand this need for Daz to ensure that other stores (that are exclusively selling 3D figures to be used across a variety of applications) must include (or necessitate) base figures to be purchased from Daz store. This is probably done in-order to retain the intellectual property and protect Genesis as a brand. But how would you convince a video game player (end-user who may not have any knowledge of 3D modeling) to buy a Daz figure, let alone force him to buy it from the Daz store. (A bit off-topic but with the prices that Daz charges for the base figures may instead dissuade the player from buying the game itself in the first place)

    If one factors in the additional costs of the base figure and other assets from Daz store that would be needed to play just an interactive game, it would put the price of the game much beyond the price brackets of most AAA games,

    Am I even thinking on the same wavelength?

     

    That's not what the EULA is trying to do although it's worded so that it sounds like that.

    You are entitled to use the DAZ Original content you bought in the DAZ Store if you bought a DAZ 3D Game Development license in a game so long as you don't require that DAZ Original content to be bought as IAP in a game without checking with DAZ 3D first. You may require that your game be bought before it is played but that is not the same thing as using DAZ Original content as an enticement to buy IAP. You may not allow players to extract or export DAZ original content from a game in order to create game level mods.

    Any player that play your game are not required to buy the models you bought and licensed for use in your game so while the EULA might make it sound like that is the case, I doubt that was their intent.

    At any rate, we in the forums here cannot tell you their intent but are just interpreting it with no more evidence then you have so you are adviced to wait for the official answer of the DAZ customer support representative.

  • ChoholeChohole Posts: 33,604
    edited January 2017
    mrinal said:

    I can understand this need for Daz to ensure that other stores (that are exclusively selling 3D figures to be used across a variety of applications) must include (or necessitate) base figures to be purchased from Daz store. This is probably done in-order to retain the intellectual property and protect Genesis as a brand. But how would you convince a video game player (end-user who may not have any knowledge of 3D modeling) to buy a Daz figure, let alone force him to buy it from the Daz store. (A bit off-topic but with the prices that Daz charges for the base figures may instead dissuade the player from buying the game itself in the first place)

    If one factors in the additional costs of the base figure and other assets from Daz store that would be needed to play just an interactive game, it would put the price of the game much beyond the price brackets of most AAA games,

    Am I even thinking on the same wavelength?

     

    I somehow think that you are getting very muddled up with the EULA.     Daz base figures can only be purchased from the Daz 3D store.  THey are Daz' intellectual Porperty.   Other stores are not selling figures which are Daz' IP,  they may be selling add on characters for the base figures.    Anything that is purchased form another store is not covered by DAZ Game Dev licenses.   Daz 3D Game dev license only covers Daz Originals.   PA items purchased form the DAZ 3D store require separate Game Dev licenses, providing the PA has issued a license.  If there is no PA game dev license available for the PA then you will not be able to use their products in your game.

     

    Before you get yoursel totally muddled up with understanding the Game Dev License EULA I do suggest that you ask  CS to spell it out clearly for you.

    Post edited by Chohole on
  • Sensual ArtSensual Art Posts: 645

    I also read the GDL FAQ at http://docs.daz3d.com/doku.php/artzone/pub/gamedev/start especially the last two questions. I am NOT referring to in-app-purchases (IAP) of characters or figures as part of paid DLCs. I am only referring to characters as part of the base game itself. Since this bullet point of section 3.0 of the EULA broadly covers any CRT content including modified DO characters in base game, my understanding is that Daz store purchases are necessary even for figures included in the base game itself.

    Note that IAP scenario is addressed later in a separate point within the same section 3.0 but outside this condition which requires additional purchase.

    User expressly agrees and acknowledges that any discrete sale of CRT Content separate from a purchase of the User’s application is allowable ONLY with express written consent of Daz. Thus, for example, within the context of a game, the sale or purchase of the CRT Content, portions thereof, or either two-dimensional or three-dimensional derivatives thereof as a separately-purchased commodity or upgrade using items of actual or virtual worth is prohibited without prior written consent of Daz. Written consent of Daz may be sought at the address set forth herein.

    Apparently, requiring additional purchases from Daz store and IAP within game are being treated as two orthogonal scenarios in the EULA.

  • Sensual ArtSensual Art Posts: 645
    Chohole said:
    mrinal said:

    I can understand this need for Daz to ensure that other stores (that are exclusively selling 3D figures to be used across a variety of applications) must include (or necessitate) base figures to be purchased from Daz store. This is probably done in-order to retain the intellectual property and protect Genesis as a brand. But how would you convince a video game player (end-user who may not have any knowledge of 3D modeling) to buy a Daz figure, let alone force him to buy it from the Daz store. (A bit off-topic but with the prices that Daz charges for the base figures may instead dissuade the player from buying the game itself in the first place)

    If one factors in the additional costs of the base figure and other assets from Daz store that would be needed to play just an interactive game, it would put the price of the game much beyond the price brackets of most AAA games,

    Am I even thinking on the same wavelength?

     

    I somehow think that you are getting very muddled up with the EULA.     Daz base figures can only be purchased from the Daz 3D store.  THey are Daz' intellectual Porperty.   Other stores are not selling figures which are Daz' IP,  they may be selling add on characters for the base figures.    Anything that is purchased form another store is not covered by DAZ Game Dev licenses.   Daz 3D Game dev license only covers Daz Originals.   PA items purchased form the DAZ 3D store require separate Game Dev licenses, providing the PA has issued a license.  If there is no PA game dev license available for the PA then you will not be able to use their products in your game.

     

    Before you get yoursel totally muddled up with understanding the Game Dev License EULA I do suggest that you ask  CS to spell it out clearly for you.

    Okay, I shall wait for CS to respond. I was already busy composing my earlier post and didn't get any notification for this post.

  • AlienRendersAlienRenders Posts: 794

    From what I understand, it also applies to DLC's that are clothing only (or anything that isn't part of the main game). The buyer must buy the DLC (or item) AND must also buy the base item from the DAZ store that the clothing item was built on (unless you get an agreement with DAZ).

     

  • CypherFOXCypherFOX Posts: 3,401

    Greetings,

    mrinal said:
    Chohole said:

    Before you get yoursel totally muddled up with understanding the Game Dev License EULA I do suggest that you ask  CS to spell it out clearly for you.

    Okay, I shall wait for CS to respond. I was already busy composing my earlier post and didn't get any notification for this post.

    Yeah, we here are not lawyers.  The core point as I interpret it is that DAZ is allowing you to use their content in your games, but not to create derivative individually-saleable 3D objects.  You do NOT need the end-user to have a license for the underlying object for a game, that's only required if you are selling a 3D object, which you are NOT.  When you sell a game, you are selling the game that _renders_ the 3D object, and the object is to be in a state that cannot be easily reversed.

    That said, and let me be extremely clear about this, if you plan to sell a game for money, get a lawyer.  If you plan to sell software for money, get a lawyer.  If you plan to build a business of any sort, get a lawyer.  You cannot sail those shoals without professional aid.  Most folks recognize that they shouldn't try to fix their own brakes on their car, because their life depends on doing it exactly right.  The same is true for legal matters.  Get a lawyer.

    Having partaken in these threads a few times, I have a pretty good feel for what DAZ is asking folks to do, and not to do, and I'm fairly confident in my interpretation...but were I to make a commercial product (or free product) out of it I would hire a lawyer to make sure I was clean.

    --  Morgan

     

  • CypherFOXCypherFOX Posts: 3,401

    Greetings,

    AlienRenders said:

    From what I understand, it also applies to DLC's that are clothing only (or anything that isn't part of the main game). The buyer must buy the DLC (or item) AND must also buy the base item from the DAZ store that the clothing item was built on (unless you get an agreement with DAZ).

    No, DLC for 3D items is expressly verboten without an agreement with DAZ.  It's not a matter of 'also buy the base item from the DAZ store' or anything like that.  It's flat out disallowed without written permission from DAZ.

    --  Morgan

     

     

  • Sensual ArtSensual Art Posts: 645
    CypherFOX said:

    Greetings,

    mrinal said:
    Chohole said:

    Before you get yoursel totally muddled up with understanding the Game Dev License EULA I do suggest that you ask  CS to spell it out clearly for you.

    Okay, I shall wait for CS to respond. I was already busy composing my earlier post and didn't get any notification for this post.

    Yeah, we here are not lawyers.  The core point as I interpret it is that DAZ is allowing you to use their content in your games, but not to create derivative individually-saleable 3D objects.  You do NOT need the end-user to have a license for the underlying object for a game, that's only required if you are selling a 3D object, which you are NOT.  When you sell a game, you are selling the game that _renders_ the 3D object, and the object is to be in a state that cannot be easily reversed.

    That said, and let me be extremely clear about this, if you plan to sell a game for money, get a lawyer.  If you plan to sell software for money, get a lawyer.  If you plan to build a business of any sort, get a lawyer.  You cannot sail those shoals without professional aid.  Most folks recognize that they shouldn't try to fix their own brakes on their car, because their life depends on doing it exactly right.  The same is true for legal matters.  Get a lawyer.

    Having partaken in these threads a few times, I have a pretty good feel for what DAZ is asking folks to do, and not to do, and I'm fairly confident in my interpretation...but were I to make a commercial product (or free product) out of it I would hire a lawyer to make sure I was clean.

    --  Morgan

     

    Interpretation from experienced folks like yourself is exactly what I am looking for right now. I wanted to collect the data points and risk factors even before approaching a lawyer so that I know I am consulting a competent one when I show him the EULA. And also to be sure that atleast I would be able to find a lawyer to accept my case at later stage should a misunderstanding ever arise. But as of now, as @nonesuch00 may also agree, the language in the EULA needs to be updated to reflect the intent accurately in a neutral and unbiased manner.

  • ChoholeChohole Posts: 33,604
    edited January 2017
    mrinal said:
    CypherFOX said:

    Greetings,

    mrinal said:
    Chohole said:

    Before you get yoursel totally muddled up with understanding the Game Dev License EULA I do suggest that you ask  CS to spell it out clearly for you.

    Okay, I shall wait for CS to respond. I was already busy composing my earlier post and didn't get any notification for this post.

    Yeah, we here are not lawyers.  The core point as I interpret it is that DAZ is allowing you to use their content in your games, but not to create derivative individually-saleable 3D objects.  You do NOT need the end-user to have a license for the underlying object for a game, that's only required if you are selling a 3D object, which you are NOT.  When you sell a game, you are selling the game that _renders_ the 3D object, and the object is to be in a state that cannot be easily reversed.

    That said, and let me be extremely clear about this, if you plan to sell a game for money, get a lawyer.  If you plan to sell software for money, get a lawyer.  If you plan to build a business of any sort, get a lawyer.  You cannot sail those shoals without professional aid.  Most folks recognize that they shouldn't try to fix their own brakes on their car, because their life depends on doing it exactly right.  The same is true for legal matters.  Get a lawyer.

    Having partaken in these threads a few times, I have a pretty good feel for what DAZ is asking folks to do, and not to do, and I'm fairly confident in my interpretation...but were I to make a commercial product (or free product) out of it I would hire a lawyer to make sure I was clean.

    --  Morgan

     

    Interpretation from experienced folks like yourself is exactly what I am looking for right now. I wanted to collect the data points and risk factors even before approaching a lawyer so that I know I am consulting a competent one when I show him the EULA. And also to be sure that atleast I would be able to find a lawyer to accept my case at later stage should a misunderstanding ever arise. But as of now, as @nonesuch00 may also agree, the language in the EULA needs to be updated to reflect the intent accurately in a neutral and unbiased manner.

    Some people are giving you good advice, others are not truthfully understanding correctly themselves and are therefore muddling you even more.  This unfortunately is something that can happen on a forum, which is why I advise you on this point to get it straightened out by asking CS.

    Post edited by Chohole on
  • Sensual ArtSensual Art Posts: 645
    Chohole said:
    mrinal said:
    CypherFOX said:

    Greetings,

    mrinal said:
    Chohole said:

    Before you get yoursel totally muddled up with understanding the Game Dev License EULA I do suggest that you ask  CS to spell it out clearly for you.

    Okay, I shall wait for CS to respond. I was already busy composing my earlier post and didn't get any notification for this post.

    Yeah, we here are not lawyers.  The core point as I interpret it is that DAZ is allowing you to use their content in your games, but not to create derivative individually-saleable 3D objects.  You do NOT need the end-user to have a license for the underlying object for a game, that's only required if you are selling a 3D object, which you are NOT.  When you sell a game, you are selling the game that _renders_ the 3D object, and the object is to be in a state that cannot be easily reversed.

    That said, and let me be extremely clear about this, if you plan to sell a game for money, get a lawyer.  If you plan to sell software for money, get a lawyer.  If you plan to build a business of any sort, get a lawyer.  You cannot sail those shoals without professional aid.  Most folks recognize that they shouldn't try to fix their own brakes on their car, because their life depends on doing it exactly right.  The same is true for legal matters.  Get a lawyer.

    Having partaken in these threads a few times, I have a pretty good feel for what DAZ is asking folks to do, and not to do, and I'm fairly confident in my interpretation...but were I to make a commercial product (or free product) out of it I would hire a lawyer to make sure I was clean.

    --  Morgan

     

    Interpretation from experienced folks like yourself is exactly what I am looking for right now. I wanted to collect the data points and risk factors even before approaching a lawyer so that I know I am consulting a competent one when I show him the EULA. And also to be sure that atleast I would be able to find a lawyer to accept my case at later stage should a misunderstanding ever arise. But as of now, as @nonesuch00 may also agree, the language in the EULA needs to be updated to reflect the intent accurately in a neutral and unbiased manner.

    Some people are giving you good advice, others are not truthfully understanding correctly themselves and are therefore muddling you even more.  This unfortunately is something that can happen on a forum, which is why I advise you on this point to get it straightened out by asking CS.

    Chohole, I had already raised a ticket #234707 even before raising this thread. Not sure if you can access the details from your end. Nevertheless, I shall try to post the updates and responses here unless I am explicitly told otherwise. As far as other folk's advice goes, I always welcome a healthy comment as long as it is targetted to the topic and not directed to any person.

  • Midnight_storiesMidnight_stories Posts: 4,112

    OK this is only my opinion it’s not the truth just my point of view from the experiences I’ve had with game development. So, take it with a grain of salt!

    First off if you going to make 3D games you are going to need a mass of resources and time, you simply can’t make a AAA game by yourself. I’m assuming you are going to use Unity3D or Unreal for the programming. I’d go with Unity3D and if you can’t program by games templates for the store, but first you will still need to know C++ pretty well before you can start customizing the game templates. You best bet is to get a group of people who will take shares in the game as payment. It will take years to get it working and tested right, and frankly by the time you finished it will already be outdated by the time you release it, technology moves that fast. VR is the way of the future the Samsung phones are popular with VR at the moment and Unity3D is good for that. So make a wise choice of what type of game you are going to make at the start.

    I prefer 2D mobile games over the full on 3D games they make way more money for the indi’s, then having to fork out huge amount of money to pay 3D programmers. You only need one person to make 2D games and you can make a sellable game in less than a day. 2D Games have some easy to use programs that are drop and drag no programming needed, they export to whatever platform you want. You can just buy the 2D graphics for next to nothing or render then yourself. The programs I’ve used for them is Unity3D Buildbox2 Construct2 and Gamesmaker. Found Buildbox2 was the best for me it made the game the quickest and gave the most professional look but it’s a bit expensive, Construct2 good drop and drag but not as professional with menus and a bit tricky to export. Unity3D use games templates but you’ll need a little C++ to get by. Games maker OK but way too much programming.

    With buildbox I made the game in 8Hrs and publish to google play store all in one day.

    This is what I found out after I published my game to google Play. I got a flood of e-mails from publishers wanting me to let them help with promotions. For X amount of dollars we can get you a 1000 ratings and so many comments. I got this from 10 different publishers. That really opened the eyes up, you see these games with all these ratings and comments and most of them are not real, they are paid for. So in order to get your game noticed you have to pay for it. Again, this is my experience not saying it’s like this always. Also you have to realize the other way you make money is putting in annoying ads and if you annoy people enough they will pay to turn them off, I really hate this idea.

    So that’s my experience with game development 2D game are for individuals, 3D game long time and lot of resources.

    So all the best I hope you make it !!!  

  • nonesuch00nonesuch00 Posts: 18,729

    Good points but for Unity they need to learn C#. As a programmer I find C# in Visual Studio with Unity has to be the easiest programming environment ever and it's just getting easier. It does have a massive set of libraries and different APIs that are a moving target but for all intent and purposes if one considers quality on quantity a lone hobbyist and make a better game than a AAA game company. How many best selling books have more than one author? Making an intriguing game is the same type of endeavor.

    UE4 uses C++ though.

    You can make 3D games and 2D games both easily in Unity and like DAZ 3D renders using DAZ Store products, plenty of games are made using Unity Store game frameworks and other products. There are a few really good game frameworks and modeled game levels that almost remove the need to do any programming or modeling at all - for real - you just have to be judicious at how you reskin & present the game 'theme'.

    It's a fun hobby that is getting easier and easier for complete non-programmers to learn & use and it's free. Really free. You'll find the most expensive part is the same as for any hobby - buying hobby materials to use in the Unity game engine.

    The complaint we hear about DAZ Studio being lacking in tutorials and documentation is non-existant for Unity hobbyists. Their manual is extensive online & offline and they have extensive video tutorials on everything from simple scripting in C# to making games in 3D & 2D and making multiplyer games and on and on. For those DAZ hobbyists that want a better way to animate and use their DAZ content in games and such Unity is ideal but of course if you publish you need the relevant licenses but no one says you have to publish. I've only bothered publishing one (free) game in 5 years and helping a couple of others program their games and publish their games.

    As far as the money making aspects I've yet to try to but of course most game makers don't make any money. It's more rewarding making a game than buying lottery tickets and truthfully of course you stand a better chance then playing the lottery to 'win' a lot of money by making games but still the chance is not a very big chance.

  • ArtiniArtini Posts: 10,313
    edited January 2017

    It is much easier to use content explicitly created for the games, like the Morph3D items.

    They already have proper license for using them in the games and you can morph them too.

    They are just the derivatives of Genesis 2 items, similar to Genesis 2 items sold at Daz3D for rendering purposes.

    That way you save a lot of time, efforts and/or costs of lawyer consulting.

    I have also purchased the game license for Daz originals,

    but realised, that it will be very hard to complain with the license requirements,

    to actually use Daz originals in the games. It's a pity, because Genesis 3 transfers pretty well to game engines.

     

    Post edited by Artini on
  • Sensual ArtSensual Art Posts: 645
    edited January 2017

     

    Midnight_stories said:

    OK this is only my opinion it’s not the truth just my point of view from the experiences I’ve had with game development. So, take it with a grain of salt!

    First off if you going to make 3D games you are going to need a mass of resources and time, you simply can’t make a AAA game by yourself. I’m assuming you are going to use Unity3D or Unreal for the programming. I’d go with Unity3D and if you can’t program by games templates for the store, but first you will still need to know C++ pretty well before you can start customizing the game templates. You best bet is to get a group of people who will take shares in the game as payment. It will take years to get it working and tested right, and frankly by the time you finished it will already be outdated by the time you release it, technology moves that fast. VR is the way of the future the Samsung phones are popular with VR at the moment and Unity3D is good for that. So make a wise choice of what type of game you are going to make at the start.

    I prefer 2D mobile games over the full on 3D games they make way more money for the indi’s, then having to fork out huge amount of money to pay 3D programmers. You only need one person to make 2D games and you can make a sellable game in less than a day. 2D Games have some easy to use programs that are drop and drag no programming needed, they export to whatever platform you want. You can just buy the 2D graphics for next to nothing or render then yourself. The programs I’ve used for them is Unity3D Buildbox2 Construct2 and Gamesmaker. Found Buildbox2 was the best for me it made the game the quickest and gave the most professional look but it’s a bit expensive, Construct2 good drop and drag but not as professional with menus and a bit tricky to export. Unity3D use games templates but you’ll need a little C++ to get by. Games maker OK but way too much programming.

    With buildbox I made the game in 8Hrs and publish to google play store all in one day.

    This is what I found out after I published my game to google Play. I got a flood of e-mails from publishers wanting me to let them help with promotions. For X amount of dollars we can get you a 1000 ratings and so many comments. I got this from 10 different publishers. That really opened the eyes up, you see these games with all these ratings and comments and most of them are not real, they are paid for. So in order to get your game noticed you have to pay for it. Again, this is my experience not saying it’s like this always. Also you have to realize the other way you make money is putting in annoying ads and if you annoy people enough they will pay to turn them off, I really hate this idea.

    So that’s my experience with game development 2D game are for individuals, 3D game long time and lot of resources.

    So all the best I hope you make it !!!  

    Thanks @Midnight_stories, those are some very good tips. I hope you maintain a blog with your extensive experience, it would definitely be worth following. I had been following the Steam greenlight discussions for some time and some of the new developers there share similar experiences e.g. being bullied with down votes and negative reviews. For a small development team which do not have an established presence in the market, the initial impressions and feedback mean a lot so there's already a lot of pressure. While ready made content available here makes it a lot easier during development, the legal aspects definitely matters when the game starts generating revenue. If its just a small game developed in a few days or couple of months, the impact/losses may not be that severe in case one has to deal with copyright claims. But if a game take more than a few months to develop and involves sizeable investment of resources, the risks are way too high.

    I come from a software development background where we often use free and open-source software to build both in-house and commercial applications for our customers. There's an entire legal team who maintains what kind of open-source licenses are suitable for being incorporated with what kind of applications. They do maintain a whitelist of non-copyleft licenses which are safe to use. Products like Blender with their strong copyleft GPL would be a strict no-no for almost anything commercial even though its completely free. Just giving an example of what we have to go through almost every time we evaluate a new piece of software in our day job. And here we are talking about building an entire game primarily on top 3rd party content :)

    I have not yet heard from support, neither with this issue nor with couple other I had raised before this yesterday. But considering what an eventful day it was for sales yesterday, I think the support team deserve my patience.

    Post edited by Sensual Art on
  • Sensual ArtSensual Art Posts: 645
    nonesuch00 said:

    Good points but for Unity they need to learn C#. As a programmer I find C# in Visual Studio with Unity has to be the easiest programming environment ever and it's just getting easier. It does have a massive set of libraries and different APIs that are a moving target but for all intent and purposes if one considers quality on quantity a lone hobbyist and make a better game than a AAA game company. How many best selling books have more than one author? Making an intriguing game is the same type of endeavor.

    UE4 uses C++ though.

    You can make 3D games and 2D games both easily in Unity and like DAZ 3D renders using DAZ Store products, plenty of games are made using Unity Store game frameworks and other products. There are a few really good game frameworks and modeled game levels that almost remove the need to do any programming or modeling at all - for real - you just have to be judicious at how you reskin & present the game 'theme'.

    It's a fun hobby that is getting easier and easier for complete non-programmers to learn & use and it's free. Really free. You'll find the most expensive part is the same as for any hobby - buying hobby materials to use in the Unity game engine.

    The complaint we hear about DAZ Studio being lacking in tutorials and documentation is non-existant for Unity hobbyists. Their manual is extensive online & offline and they have extensive video tutorials on everything from simple scripting in C# to making games in 3D & 2D and making multiplyer games and on and on. For those DAZ hobbyists that want a better way to animate and use their DAZ content in games and such Unity is ideal but of course if you publish you need the relevant licenses but no one says you have to publish. I've only bothered publishing one (free) game in 5 years and helping a couple of others program their games and publish their games.

    As far as the money making aspects I've yet to try to but of course most game makers don't make any money. It's more rewarding making a game than buying lottery tickets and truthfully of course you stand a better chance then playing the lottery to 'win' a lot of money by making games but still the chance is not a very big chance.

     

    Artini said:

    It is much easier to use content explicitly created for the games, like the Morph3D items.

    They already have proper license for using them in the games and you can morph them too.

    They are just the derivatives of Genesis 2 items, similar to Genesis 2 items sold at Daz3D for rendering purposes.

    That way you save a lot of time, efforts and/or costs of lawyer consulting.

    I have also purchased the game license for Daz originals,

    but realised, that it will be very hard to complain with the license requirements,

    to actually use Daz originals in the games. It's a pity, because Genesis 3 transfers pretty well to game engines.

     

    Morph3D seems an interesting alternative but honestly I would like to exercise my free will while choosing something as important as a game engine and not have it dictated by the character system alone. Not that I do not like Morph3D or Unity but I don't want to be restricted by it even though it may provide many of the functionalities that may improve the chances of succeeding with smaller teams while not delaying time-to-market. I would say its more of a personal choice.

    On EULA front, Morph3D also seem to have similar restrictions on in-game-purchases of characters in addition to a few additional restrictions like number of Morph3D 'pieces of Content' allowed and number of unique user using that content. Exceeding those imposed limits would require 'additional rights'. At least the Daz EULA does not impose those additional restrictions.

  • mjc1016mjc1016 Posts: 15,001

    There comes a point where jumping through hoops to meet all the points and restrictions of various EULAs isn't worth it and building your own assets from scratch is the less bothersome option...and probably cheaper, too.

  • nonesuch00nonesuch00 Posts: 18,729

    Also, if you own a game development license from DAZ / Morph3D you sort of have to be jumping through hoops to violate those EULAs. As a programmer I know the skills that you'd need to bring to bare to use those DAZ 3D models in a game in ways that would violate the EULA is significantly more complex and time consuming than bringing those same skills to bare on programming actual game play.

  • Sensual ArtSensual Art Posts: 645

    Hoops are unavoidable unless the entire game (including the engine) is built ground-up entirely in-house and as long as there is any form of dependency on external content. As a team developing game, its all about what the team should focus on building and what can be procured externally within reasonable costs. Say, do you have an excellent bunch of programmers, visual artists, animators or sound engineers in your team? Unless you are in the league of major game development houses like BioWare, UbiSoft, Bethesda or Sega, I would say its highly unlikely.

    Though, one may argue that Steam has several one-man success stories, but those cases are not common and need exceptional talent and dedication.

    The whole discussion on EULA is to learn to identify and manage those risks associated with procuring without risking budget, resources and schedule getting escalated while trying to build everything in-house. As long as those risks are manageable, I see it as a viable business strategy.

  • nonesuch00nonesuch00 Posts: 18,729
    mrinal said:

    Hoops are unavoidable unless the entire game (including the engine) is built ground-up entirely in-house and as long as there is any form of dependency on external content. As a team developing game, its all about what the team should focus on building and what can be procured externally within reasonable costs. Say, do you have an excellent bunch of programmers, visual artists, animators or sound engineers in your team? Unless you are in the league of major game development houses like BioWare, UbiSoft, Bethesda or Sega, I would say its highly unlikely.

    Though, one may argue that Steam has several one-man success stories, but those cases are not common and need exceptional talent and dedication.

    The whole discussion on EULA is to learn to identify and manage those risks associated with procuring without risking budget, resources and schedule getting escalated while trying to build everything in-house. As long as those risks are manageable, I see it as a viable business strategy.

    Well such threading the eyes of needles via EULAs and legally binding business agreements for big, self-sustaining businesses is best done by professional lawyers or should be if not. Someone like myself? I bought a license and DAZ models are included in game and can't be legally extracted or exported from game and I don't sell access to DAZ models as IAP in games so I don't need extra case by case persmission from DAZ 3D for their models. For me then, that's all I need to worry about.

    Should I wind up making millions? Well I'd need a lawyer and accountant just to stave off my sudden popularity and lol, my sudden genius, no matter what line of business I was in.

  • outrider42outrider42 Posts: 3,679

    So if a PA does not have a game license, you cannot use that content in a game at all? That is super lame. I thought the Daz license would cover that content with the exception of the PAs who have their own. Man, the license situation really is wacked up here. Because there are lots of PAs that do not offer a license, effectively cutting off a massive portion of the store to games. So a prospective buyer must do a lot of research to discover if the content they want is something they can actually use. Dumb.

    This should be covered in the PA contract right off the bat. If you develop content for Daz3D's store, then it should be covered that this content may be used in a game. Problem solved. Genesis 4 needs to fix this nonsense.

    And don't even bring up Morph3D. Its based on Genesis 2, that's old tech. Genesis 3 uses fewer polygons and is lighter on game engines. 

  • FSMCDesignsFSMCDesigns Posts: 12,844
    outrider42 said:

    So if a PA does not have a game license, you cannot use that content in a game at all? That is super lame. I thought the Daz license would cover that content with the exception of the PAs who have their own. Man, the license situation really is wacked up here. Because there are lots of PAs that do not offer a license, effectively cutting off a massive portion of the store to games. So a prospective buyer must do a lot of research to discover if the content they want is something they can actually use. Dumb.

    This should be covered in the PA contract right off the bat. If you develop content for Daz3D's store, then it should be covered that this content may be used in a game. Problem solved. Genesis 4 needs to fix this nonsense.

    And don't even bring up Morph3D. Its based on Genesis 2, that's old tech. Genesis 3 uses fewer polygons and is lighter on game engines. 

    Why? Just because there are workarounds to get DAZ content into a game engine and there are a few licenses for content doesn't mean that it is it's main purpose. Not lame at all, they probably don't want their work used in games, I know I wouldn't...hence the reason to create for Daz Studio and not a game engine. If you want to create a game, then create the game which means creating the assets for it also or shop at a store that is game content specific which DAZ is not yet, thank goodness.

    I come to DAZ to get away from the gaming forums I have to frequent because of my modding and design work

  • nonesuch00nonesuch00 Posts: 18,729
    outrider42 said:

    So if a PA does not have a game license, you cannot use that content in a game at all? That is super lame. I thought the Daz license would cover that content with the exception of the PAs who have their own. Man, the license situation really is wacked up here. Because there are lots of PAs that do not offer a license, effectively cutting off a massive portion of the store to games. So a prospective buyer must do a lot of research to discover if the content they want is something they can actually use. Dumb.

    This should be covered in the PA contract right off the bat. If you develop content for Daz3D's store, then it should be covered that this content may be used in a game. Problem solved. Genesis 4 needs to fix this nonsense.

    And don't even bring up Morph3D. Its based on Genesis 2, that's old tech. Genesis 3 uses fewer polygons and is lighter on game engines. 

    Well you have to ask the individual PAs. It's my understanding DAZ Store already takes a hefty cut of all PA sales so it's their perogative how they decide to sell their own property.

    You get different answers. I've asked one PA and they don't do licenses, I have paid 2 different PAs independent of DAZ 3D & their store, and I was given the go ahead by one PA to use one set of models they did for a game without the usual 5xDAZ Store price for a game license.

    When you buy a DAZ Game Developer license they make it quite clear that one of the listed vendors must by 'DAZ Originals' to use in a published game.

    That said, except for 2 or 3 PAs creating content that is stylistically unique from the vast majority of DAZ Content, there isn't much need to go through & buy game development licenses for every PA as their content doesn't really add much to what you can get stylistically via DAZ Originals.

  • Sensual ArtSensual Art Posts: 645
    mrinal said:

    I see that in section 3.0 of the EULA there is a statement:

    -------------------------------------------

    User may access, use, copy, and modify the Content to create one or more derived or additional three-dimensional works provided that:
    ...
    upon receipt of a written request from Daz, User immediately ceases any and all distribution of the art that User has created from the CRT Content, if Daz has determined, in its sole discretion, that (i) such art is substantially similar to or is a clone of existing Content; or (ii) such derived or additional work fails to require the use of Content available through the online Daz store.

    -------------------------------------------

    My concern is regarding item (ii) above. If I use a CRT Content (DO item) in-game, is it mandatory that the end-users of the game should also need to purchase the same content from Daz online store? For example, say I have the Daz GDL and I buy an ogre from the store and use it in game after modifications. Do the end users of the game also need to buy the ogre from the Daz store? If yes, then the ogre out-of-store may not be usable in-game since its not in a game-ready state. If not, then what is the intention of the second clause? Or, in another terms, what scenarios does the second clause meant to exclude?

    Also, since the second clause is behind an OR conjunction, does it mean that failing to meet that requirement alone could be considered a sufficient reason for violation?

    Note to mods: I have already raised a CS ticket for this query. In the meanwhile, I am trying to understand how others "interprete" this particular clause of the EULA.

    Finally received a response on the ticket from CS:

    No, the end users do not need to also buy the content so long as the format the content is delivered to them is non-reversible. Meaning that they can only access and use that content within that specific game and no where else.

    On the meaning of the second part of the clause:

    It's means that you can't tweak our content and then resell it without our express written permission. If you do give permission then we can revoke it at any time.

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