Ultimate Natural Bend Morphs for Victoria 7 - some faulty files causing bugs

Comments

• Zev0 Posts: 7,121

  August 2016 edited August 2016

  The product says it's for V7? I do not understand what is unclear about this. It came across quite obvious for me that this was designed for V7 only. Yes, maybe that is limiting if you want to use it for other shapes, but the product is designed for V7, so you cannot fault the PA if it does not work on other shapes, because it is not intended to unless specifically mentioned that it can. Just my 5 cents.

  Post edited by Zev0 on August 2016
• DavidGB Posts: 570

  August 2016

  Oh, I should perhaps add that i download and install via DIM. Depending on who put the wrong files in what at what stage, it's possible that only DIM downloads are affected. But equally could be for Connect and/or manual downlaoders too.
• Male-M3dia Posts: 3,584

  August 2016

  If this is an actual issue, this should go to a helpdesk ticket so it can be properly investigated. A public posting is not going to get it resolved especially if the PA doesn't visit the forums. 
• Jimbow Posts: 557

  August 2016

  I ramped the dials up to 400% and saved a preset. Works well enough for me on G3F now.
• DavidGB Posts: 570

  August 2016

  Zev0 said:

  The product says it's for V7? I do not understand what is unclear about this. It came across quite obvious for me that this was designed for V7 only. Yes, maybe that is limiting if you want to use it for other shapes, but the product is designed for V7, so you cannot fault the PA if it does not work on other shapes, because it is not intended to unless specifically mentioned that it can. Just my 5 cents.

   

  You miss the point. Hugely.

  I know it was for V7. i knew it was for V7 before i bought it. I knew the V6 one said just for V6 before I  bought it to see IF it would work usefully with a Gia 6 (plus a bunch of other morphs) based character, intending to try and get a no-questions-asked refund if it wouldn't. Actually some of the morphs were useful with that non-V6 G2F character (after I'd removed the V6 dependencies and posing dial links) so I kept the product. I bought this, knowing it said for V7, to see if it would be useful with a 50% Gia 7, 50% Gia 6 based G3F (plus another bunch of morphs) character - with the experience of the V6 one and the expectation that like with the V6 one I'd have to edit out the V7 dependency formulae form the morphs. Again, I bought, given the no-questions-asked refund guarantee, to try it out and see if it would be useful with non-V7 shapes, no expectation it would necessarily work usefully, and the inetnion of returning it if it didn't.

  (Actually, testing is of much more importance with G3F. With G2F most FBMS, PBMs, JCMs, HD morphs and normal maps can be freely mixed. This is not so with G3F where my every attempt at making certain characters, starting from different bases, has failed on incompatibilities between FBMs, PBMs, JCMS, HD morphs and normal maps that just won't mix. E,g. Take Karen7 FBM, try to shrink the breasts to something smaller and more likely on a real world athlete with the DAZ G3F bodymorph Breats Small - or the breats small morphs in your breast control pack, Zev0 - and then raise the arms up - great rectangular edged shelf in the lower outside of the breasts. Same with Eva7 FBM and the assorted smaller breasts morphs form DAZ and various PAs, and also with V7 to a lesser extent. Basically those FBM, the smaller breast PBMs and the base G3F coller-up JCMs actually locate the edge of the breasts on different places on the mesh, making the mess on arms-up. After endless running into FBMs, JCMs, PBMs, HD morphs and normal maps being incompatible with each other either on originally shaping the character or when posing after vaguelly successful shaping in a way I've never had with G2F or Genesis or V4 or even V3, I very belatedly realised the general problem that lies behind all the specific ones. Original Stephanie (but not v1/V2), V3/S3/etc, V4, Genesis and G2F have a body mesh with the main sub-skin structures outlined by edgeloops in the mesh topology; G3F, over most of the body, doesn't, just a rectangular grid. On all those previous versions from original Stephanie onwards (but not V1/V2), DAZ artists and PAs, modelling details and creating/adjusting bends, can see where the edges of the structures are and where the bend line's are going to be actually in the mesh - so all the morphs, SD and HD, and JCMs and normal maps align, even when the changes on some are quite radical. On G3F, all the DAZ artists and PAs CAN'T see where the edges of the structures are, pick their own location on the blankly rectangular mesh .... and the products don't align. With G3F I've had this problem stop me at a point in shaping the character because morphs I need to use (often yours, Zev0) to adjust from a basic shape don't align on what bit of mesh is which bit of sub-surface anatomy and don't work with what i have so far. I get several different JCMs from the several different FBMs I'm using at sub-1 level work against each other and give a blurry, smudeged knee or elbow rather than each add the definition they do just for their own FBM. I've had tweaking with some PBMs (at low, all 0.1-0.4 levels) and their associated JCMs cause the armpit, side hip and abddomen crumple and self intersect on posing, because again they all disagree on which bit of mesh is precisely which bit of the body. And as for all the morphs, HD (out of necessity) morphs and normal maps that define even slightly the lower ribs (for skinny model types) or the external oblique thoracic muscles (for athletic types), from DAZ FBMs, DAZ PBMs, HD addons, normal maps, your ShapeShift morphs, Zev0, or other PAs' products - almost none of them align, producing, when mixed, a loer rib or external oblique thoracic that is anything from blurry messes to an extraordinary 3D checkerboard if you try mixing some - even a small amount - of Rune 7 with almost anything else at all. Whereas with G2F or any female figure after V2, they pretty much all align and are freely mixable, because on G2F and those others, all the modellers can see the margins of the ribs/muscles and so work to the same mesh being the same structures. Basically, when it comes to the body, by removing the edgeloops defining the subsurface structures they've used since original Stephanie and V3 etc and onwards, DAZ have drained the gnesis genepool. Hardly anything mixes well for someone wanting to really sculpt the female body in any other way than giving them really big breasts and butt. It's all fine for people who just want to use an XXX 7 shape out of the box,maybe just inflate the butt and breasts - they won't know what I'm talking about. But for someone trying to replicate some real world bodies like, say, a real world heptathlete, sprinter or boxer or MMA fighter, or even a lot of the real fashion models, G3F is a nightmare.)

   

  Back to the point.

  First, the main point of my post was the fault - the not working elbow JCMs that ARE advertized and illustrated, but those 6 files are without morph deltas so do not do anything. The rest is a parenthetic opinion about their product given by me to that PA.

  I was NOT complaining that the product information was misleading. It was very clear, I knew what I would get. I knew I'd likely have to edit the files as with the V6 version, i only didn't know if the actual morphs would turn out to be useful, which i was hoping they might be as currently my G2F, with 3 bend improver products (not counting yours as that's only one part of the body), bends much better than my G3F with none (not counting yours, as that's only one part of the body, and in any case the thigh bend correctors included in another G3F product I have do rather better, but with either I still don't get as good a thigh bend as with G2F and the Beautiful Bends, Ideal Beauty and Ultimate V6 products, picking which to use for each joint bend on a pose by pose basis as they each have different strong and weak points).

  What I AM saying to K.H. Image Studio (and anyone else interested in my opinon, though I can't think who that might be ... especially as my four years of multiple daily postings on this forum. mostly troubleshooting people's problems with content in DS, ended in 2008 with my developing disability, and I now probably visit the forum - and then only concerning some existing issue I have, I don't browse - maybe four times a year), as a past customer of theirs and maybe a future one is:

  IN MY OPINION:

  1) This product, as advertized, and as limited in the way it is supplied (i.e. neck/head bend correctors linked to the posing dials rather than the assorted head neck bends so it doesn't work with most pose presets or bodypart bending; and only working with the V7 FBM dialled and at the same level the V7 FBM is dialled) is not worth the 28.95 full price tag. It is too limited. I would not pay that for it.

  2) If I didn't know that I have the knowledge to remove those (yes, fully and fairly advertized) limitations, I would not even consider it worth the 20.27 USD sale price tag. If asked ( though I can't imagine who would ask) if i thought this product would be worth buying, my recommendation to anybory alse would be 'If you know how to alter it to remove the limitations built in, then 'yes'. For anyone who is not techie enough to do that, then 'no' unless they only - or very largely - only use the V7 FBM at 1 for everything they do. (Actually, come to think of it I was asked which if any bend improver products for G2F I thought were good and worth the money on another Poser/DS site a couple of times, even though i post there as infrequently as here, so i suppose I might be asked for my opinions/recommendations on the G3F ones.)

  3) Given that i do know I have the knowledge to remove the limitations and expand the usability, but also considering the amount of tedious and for me literally painful work it takes to remove the limitations, I was just ... JUST ... prepared to pay the sale price. But if the PA wants me to continue as a customer, they are right on the edge of me not buying things from them I'd otherwise like. IMO, if the PA wants to release products as limited as this, the price should be significantly lower. Or make the product less limited.

  4) There is absolutely no reason at all to link the neck/head morphs to the posing controls. Just link them to the body part bends as with all the other JCMs in the package. Bang, one big limtation gone, now the neck improvers engage when using pose presets or bending body parts as well as the posing dials. Small, change, big increase in usability, significant increase in price I, for one, would be prepared to pay.

  5) There is absolutely no need to put in the formulae that multiply the morphs by the V7 FBM value, which therefore stops the product working when not using the V7 FBM. The product includes a (visible) master dial by which the morphs in the package are multiplied. so they can all be turned on or off in a second, as well as having overall level adjusted in between 0 and 1. The product includes (visible) dials that control the morphs for each body part, so again tthe morpsh by joint and rotation direction can be turened off, on, or something in between independently. That is enough; more than enough. Plenty of products say 'this product was made/optimized only for the V7 shape (or A7, or Girl 7 or blahdiblah7), and use with other shapes may require adjustments or give unpredictable/useless/horrible results' or wording to that effect. There are morph pack products that say that; there are expressions sets that say that; there are pose sets that say that. And that's all that is needed - say it on the sales page, supply visible dials to turn these bend improver morphs on or off or reduce the applied level all together or by location - ALREADY INLCUDED - and then leave it at that and up to the user to decide if they are useful enough with other shapes on a shape by shape basis. That is it. Just remove the FBM V7 formulae, re-word a  bit of the sales page, and boom, MASSIVE increase in usability, and then i'd say it's worth even the full price. As it is, I can see a lot of customers who don't use the V7 FBM much looking at the sales page and not buying it, when actually, with the V7 dependency removed they would find it actually was a useful addition to their content with other shapes too and they might well read the re-worded sales page and buy it and like it.

  After all, I find a great many DAZ own and PA morph products (including yours, Zev0, and from morph sets to character morphs to HD morphs, and even the normal maps in character products) actually don't work with a bunch of other ones, conflict horribly when I start mixing them (and I don't mean mixing a bunch of FBMs all at 1 either), and neither DAZ or the PAs have said 'this only works with this or that' or put in formulae to make them only work with the other FBMs those products were tested with. There's nothing in your Breast Control sales page that says it only works with X and Y shape, but can't be used to make Karen7's breasts smaller without messing up when her arms are raised, and can't make smaller breats on Rune7 without hideous creasing at the breasts margin. So, with the ease of turning them off or on or changing the level, as far as I'm concerned, and like many other products, a warning it was made specially for the V7 shape and usability with anything else is not guaranteed is all that's needed.

  And -

  I'm not saying this because I want the PA to alter the product for my use. I have already altered it for my use. I'm thinking of other users who are not up to doing that

  And I'm not saying this as a criticism. Or at least I am trying to offer the PA constructive criticism - that the product would be much better and appeal to a wider range of users, thus gaining more sales and more positive word-of-mouth recommendations, through simply shifting the neck/head bend improvers to depend on the bodypart bends not the posing dials, removing the V7 FBM formulae and rewording the sales page a little. I am actually trying to be helpful to the PA.

  For me, as I say I was just, but only just, prepared to sepnd the sale price for something I'd have to work on to get the wider usability; and i won't be requesting a refund ... unless I don't get an  update with the missing elbow morphs before the 30 day money back period is running out.

  OK, that's about my quota of typing for the next two months.
• DavidGB Posts: 570

  August 2016

  Male-M3dia said:

  If this is an actual issue, 

  There are probably still a few people here who remember me enough to know that if I say there is an issue, there is an issue, and that I've already investigated it and found out specifically what it is. Like here. Morphs that should exist having no deltas therefore no effect and the product not working fully as advertized - i.e. no elbow bend improvement.

   

  Male-M3dia said:

  this should go to a helpdesk ticket so it can be properly investigated. A public posting is not going to get it resolved especially if the PA doesn't visit the forums. 

   

  Does nobody actually read a post before answering these days? I'm sure it never used to be this bad. (I think it's fair for me to condescend to someone condescending to me.)

  Please re-read, slowly and carefully, the first two, very short parapgraphs of my original post, the second of which says I was about to open a support ticket (which i then did), and the first of which gives my reason for posting as well.

  It was principally an FYI to anyone else who bought the product, thought something was wrong, and came searching the forums on the matter, to explain to them that yes, there is a falready ault in the elbow morphs not working, it's not just them, and also explain what it is (missing morph deltas) and that i have filed a support ticket. A bit of public service, if you like, to less tech savvie customers of the product.

  That was the main reason. However it was also on the off chance (but NOT in the expectation) that the PA (a) reads the forums, and (b) speaks English, purely on the grounds that after I opened a DAZ support ticket about a bug in one particular product frome one PA (not this one) some time ago, a fixed version turned up in DIM around 6 weeks later, while when I posted in the forum about another similar bug in the same product, that PA saw it, fixed the bug, and a fixed download appeared in DIM less than 24 hours after my post. Now, I hardly ever visit the forum nowadays, and do not know which PAs frequent the forum, or, in many cases, which can read English - but one can alwys hope. Many bugs I can fix myself, e.g. broken ERC formulae, but this is a case of absent morph deltas.

  And, while I was at it, on the off chance the PA did visit the forum and did read English, I thought, having done my intent in the first few parpagraphs on the matter of the bug,  I'd add what was intended as constuctive criticism of the product aisde from the bug that also in effect to others might be a useful partial review.

  If that's alright with you.

   
• Male-M3dia Posts: 3,584

  August 2016 edited August 2016

  Instead of typing all these posts, it's much better to to create a ticket. And make the problem and description text concise and to the point. That's the only place issues are handled... not forum posts. There is a process for issues and that's where this needs to be. And it's premature to make public service posts as it's not determined it's an issue. Most of what I gleaned was an issue with your preferences and trying to use the product in a way that it wasn't designed. That's not a bug in the way you've described.

  Post edited by Male-M3dia on August 2016
• Richard Haseltine Posts: 108,072

  August 2016

  A reminder - please, if you think a post is inappropriate flkag it for the mods. The forum is not for arguing about what posts should or should not be made in the forums.
• Zev0 Posts: 7,121

  August 2016 edited August 2016

  "There is absolutely no need to put in the formulae that multiply the morphs by the V7 FBM value, which therefore stops the product working when not using the V7 FBM."

  If the morphs were designed for V7, on V7, sculpted to correct V7 shape, then it is a must to be linked to V7 because guess what, if the corrector morphs do not look right on other shapes the PA gets blamed. If a morph is specifically designed for a particular shape, then it belongs to that shape, unless it is generically designed and based off the base shape itself. You would get more complaints if the limiter was removed from V7 and could be linked to any shape and results looked bad. People would ask why does this not look right on this shape or that shape. Well, because it wasn't designed for them in the first place.

  Post edited by Zev0 on August 2016
• Male-M3dia Posts: 3,584

  August 2016

  Zev0 said:

  "There is absolutely no need to put in the formulae that multiply the morphs by the V7 FBM value, which therefore stops the product working when not using the V7 FBM."

  If the morphs were designed for V7, on V7, sculpted to correct V7 shape, then it is a must to be linked to V7 because guess what, if the corrector morphs do not look right on other shapes the PA gets blamed. If a morph is specifically designed for a particular shape, then it belongs to that shape, unless it is generically designed and based off the base shape itself. You would get more complaints if the limiter was removed from V7 and could be linked to any shape. People would ask why does this not look right on this shape or that shape. Well, because it wasn't designed for them in the first place.

  Also this keeps the joint corrective from firing when using a different shape, which may cause issues. For example, if you used morph loader pro to load a corrective against V7, you will need V7 dialed in to have the correct shape. If you used a different shape, such as aiko, without the multiply the bend would most likely crumple the mesh rather than correct it, since the morph was loaded with V7 in mind. Then that would be an error that the PA would need to fix.
• Zev0 Posts: 7,121

  August 2016

  Yep.
• Zev0 Posts: 7,121

  August 2016 edited August 2016

  edited..

  Post edited by Zev0 on August 2016
• Peter Fulford Posts: 1,325

  August 2016

  Zev0 said:

  Breast Control was released long before those shapes were out? So what, I must back track on all my products and update to support all new shapes?

  No, Zev0, that's not what DavidGB meant. He was using the way you do things as an example (a good one) of how he'd like to see the PA (K.H. Image Studio) operate. That is: state what the product is for (in your case, base G3F) but allow the customer to try the product on other figures (i.e. don't link it to a character full body morph).

   

   
• Zev0 Posts: 7,121

  August 2016 edited August 2016

  Then I apologize. I am a bit grumpy and misread. Only 1 hour sleep.....

  Post edited by Zev0 on August 2016
• Peter Fulford Posts: 1,325

  August 2016

  Zev0 said:

   Only 1 hour sleep.....

  Another great product in the pipeline then... ;-)
• Zev0 Posts: 7,121

  August 2016 edited August 2016

  Brow Remover. http://www.daz3d.com/forums/discussion/104166/brow-remover-commercial/p1

  Trying to get it done and ready for PA sale, among other products that need finishing lol.

  Post edited by Zev0 on August 2016
• Male-M3dia Posts: 3,584

  August 2016

  Peter Fulford said:

  Zev0 said:

  Breast Control was released long before those shapes were out? So what, I must back track on all my products and update to support all new shapes?

  No, Zev0, that's not what DavidGB meant. He was using the way you do things as an example (a good one) of how he'd like to see the PA (K.H. Image Studio) operate. That is: state what the product is for (in your case, base G3F) but allow the customer to try the product on other figures (i.e. don't link it to a character full body morph).

   

   

  However, if the product is targeted for V7 as it was stated, the morphs are loaded against that shape not a generic base shape such as G3F. You're not going to to get the detail of the bends because it was sculpted and loaded against that character shape. Morph loader only saves deltas of morphs against the body shape which is was loaded; using a different body shape will only crush the mesh, not correct it. On any other shape it simply be a very bad bend. Only generic bend products for g3F will do what the OP wants, and there is already products in the store that does this.
• jardine Posts: 1,215

  August 2016

  Zev0 said:

  Then I apologize. I am a bit grumpy and misread. Only 1 hour sleep.....

  that was an interesting post while it was up, though, grump aside. 

  the under-the-hood stuff about the chest flattening (or absence thereof)--i'm glad i got to read it while it was around.  :)

  j
• Peter Fulford Posts: 1,325

  August 2016

  jardine said:

  the under-the-hood stuff about the chest flattening (or absence thereof)--i'm glad i got to read it while it was around.  :)

  Indeed. It seems the Original original equipment manufacturer is no longer providing the facility to de-equip the equipment.

  Thus Rune, who is otherwise a fine specimin of fighting fit, is stuck with comedy p0rno implants.
• Wanderer Posts: 957

  December 2016

  Does anyone know if the above problem was corrected? I was considering getting this, but... meh. Maybe not.