Headshop 10 - Any opinions yet?
JeffG
Posts: 125
in The Commons
Any opinions yet of the new version ?
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Yeah, I'm curious about this as well.
It works with Genesis 3, I am working on blending the texture of what is produced but the likeness so far for what I wanted is good.
It works very well on Genesis 3 but not Stephanie 5...well not yet so far. Without doing much I pretty much re-produced a perfect model, Helen Flanagan.
In the picture she had heavy almost white makeup which I left. The problem where the hair had been on the sides, I touched up with the Colour option.
...Well actually nothing happened with the Colour Tab, so I went into Materials and after a few seconds of playing around, using the tutorial I touched up the sides where the hair had been.
As I hadn't used the autodots which I like btw, in Daz, used my morphs to tidy up things, like her nose which was slighlty thinner IRL.
It worked very well, I never had a previous version of Headshop and steered away from it due to previous reviews, so you may already know this. However this looks good so far. If I could find where my screenshot went....the body colour I have not figured out yet.
I have attached a copy of my screen shot from inside Daz before rendering.
Great work! Thanks for the note.
So I guess it's up to me to mention the elephant in the room that these types of software don't actually work. For one, I haven't ever seen even a reasonably realistic rendition of a reconisable face by such, and for two, the human brain is so finely tuned to pick up on inperseptable nuences of facial recognition that one can not even hope to reproduce anything true-to-life from shoving a bit geomery around on a standardised base figure. And even if that was remotely possible, once the face was manipulated into an expression it would be even less recognisable as true and convincing. The best we can currently do is spending hundreds of hours in ZBrush sculpting a static face with originally made textures and no rigging like we see on CGSociety. And things will remain there for the foreseeable future because this software is simply not up the challenge it claims to be.
Agreed. It's why I rarely look for celebrity morphs or get excited about them even though I would love to have them.
I would have thought that with as long as this software has been out there (headshop, faceshop, etc), there would be at least a few commercial packages released based off this tech and there hasn't that I am aware of.
Some of the best celebrity morphs I've ever seen were done a long time ago by Moggadeet mostly for generation 3 figures (V3, M3, etc): http://www.sharecg.com/v/34481/browse/11/Poser/The-Many-Faces-of-Moggadeet
There is of course another profesional DAZ studio tool offsite I use by a company that does face generations for big name games like Skyrim, Fallout, Witcher, to name a few.......
I shall not highjack a thread about a PA product discussing it though.
The Singular Inversion Facegen Pro developers recently updated to a version that supports Genesis 3. It costs a bit more though I think.
So far the results look as good or better than the results I had with FaceGen Pro 1.6 exported to Genesis 2. I can't be sure though until I edit a texture set and configure the Genesis 3 to look like the Genesis 2 character and render in the same HDRI scene at the same camera angle to see if it's still as good as the old FaceGen Pro 1.6 version because I can tell the developers smoothed a bit of the smile from the picture but for now the two look identical except for that expression being removed programattically. It does saves a bit of work that they did that actually and in the original FaceGen Pro 1.6 version the smile which isn't even noticeable in the test picture but FaceGen Pro detected it and it was a bit of a frustration to know you need to edit the mesh results from FaceGen Pro afterward manually. LOL; you know how moms are always telling their children how they're bad expressions will stick to their face if they don't stop making them.
"There is of course another profesional DAZ studio tool offsite I use by a company that does face generations for big name games like Skyrim, Fallout, Witcher, to name a few.......
I shall not highjack a thread about a PA product discussing it though."
Quoting suddenly stopped working...
By all means, do tell. This thread concerns opinions of Headshop 10, it is not a commercial thread. So a post comparing HS10 to another item, off site or not is valid.
It's the Facegen Pro software that nonesuch00 just mentioned... http://facegen.com/
I will try to finish my side-by-side comparison of the face it exported with Facegen 1.9 for Genesis 3 to the one it exported with Facegen 1.6 for Genesis 2 in the next few days for you. Notice, I only re-exported I did not regenerate the mesh that Facegen 1.6 created and saved in native format earlier so the slight expression I mentioned was in the exported Facegen Genesis 2 face must still be in the Facegen generated native obj. I will clarify that with the Facegen support in the next few days too.
I thought it might be, thanks for that. I've been curious about that program in the past. The price of these programs, along with the few topics about them has kept me away.
I thought it might be, thanks for that. I've been curious about that program in the past. The price of these programs, along with the few topics about them has kept me away. I once tried the Facegen demo, but that was ages ago. I think it had issues working with my Windows 10 at the time.
That would be awesome and much appreciated!
I'm honestly not too worried if a face isn't perfect, as long as it is recognizable.
Oh, the FaceGen still has the Demo is it's completely functional - it will have the mesh on the forehead deformed to say SI but you'll get a good ideal. I'll still post my comparison FG 1.6 Genesis 2 FG 1.9 Genesis 3 though.
You can create interesting random faces with FG as well, not just photos and get some interesting faces by blending a FG or photo face with, eg Guy or Girl 7.
Does anyone know if HS10 has integrated a profile template picture ? FG1.9 has slots for a main template picture and a left and right profile picture...
Yes, HeadShop 10 does allow for profile generation based on a second profile picture.
Well I would like to see a demo of HeadShop 10 from you. Their promo page at DAZ isn't done with too many illustrations of it's capabilities, the example images are vga sized, and it has no demo that I can test it with.
Anyway, for the other forums members here looking to buy such software here is a good example as I could muster using Singular Inversions FaceGen Pro 1.9.
A note about the DAZ image. About the render, the person should appear somewhat tan because of the HDRI lighting has the visible portion of the model in the shade but not as tan as it appears because the white of the clothing it too white (which I think is a common mistake in just about all 3D model clothing). Oh, and the lighter skin around the eyebrows is where I just quickly copy and pasted a portion of diffuse (albedo) head IRay texture over the eyebrows and used the smudge tool to blur it. I have yet to find a sufficently pale Genesis 3 male or Genesis 3 female skin in the right hue for some characters. I don't mess with DAZ that much so it's not a big deal.
The human model texture in the 1st image from 'Ryder' for G2M and the human model texture in the 2nd image is from 'Killian' for G3M. Both were created (lol, but not horrible edits to rid the eye brows) by 'Devious Dolls'. You'll notice the iRay Killian texture is much tanner than the Ryder texture but I decided to just use that for now since that isn't the important part of the render I am illustrating.
Anyway, you'll see I didn't pose the G3M figure exactly as the G2M figure because poses aren't compatible between G2M and G3M (more conversion products needed for DAZ 3D products again? Really?) but I got close enough to illustrate the improvement of the FaceGen 1.9 over FaceGen 1.6 export process.
So this paragraph is the main paragraph you are interested in: If you look closely at the G2M image you'll see around the corners of the mouth evidence of the slightest smile in the picture. That render was created using FaceGen Pro 1.6 entirely. If you then look closely at the G3M image you'll notice that the smile has been erased. Since I did not reload the photgraph and generate a new FaceGen native object mesh using FaceGen Pro 1.9 what had to have been done was FaceGen Pro 1.9 loaded the old FaceGen Pro 1.6 object mesh and when I exported that obj mesh to DAZ 3D G3M format FaceGen Pro 1.9 smoothed out the smile to be expressionless on it's own.
Feel free to try and find differences in the actual face mesh and state them if you see them. I've noticed the smile gone is all.
I've compared the two results as best as I could and that's really the only mesh difference my eyes could find so it's done a really good job, although some purists might not want it for that reason. It depends on your goal. If you want to make a working model then it seems FaceGen Pro 1.9 is the way to go. If you want to create a sandstone bust as close to an original photo as possible (as shown in the Headshop ad copy at the DAZ Store) than maybe you want to request a copy of FaceGen 1.6 to have installed in parallel to FaceGen 1.9. Also maybe the FaceGen developers can add a check mark to the mesh generation algorithm in the FaceGen UI that tells FaceGen whether to leave an expression untouched from the photo or erased from the photo.
FaceGen also has to filter out photographic noise and other such source artifacts. To give you how good a job Facegen has done here the original photograph is an ID that uses an old fashioned poloroid stye emulsion picture with taken with excessive flash. To make things more difficult for FaceGen, the ID laminating process left a few visible air bubbles in the ID and those are visible in the scan too.
Now I had been planning on manually editing the smile out of the original FaceGen 1.6 object mesh but since FaceGen 1.9 did so programmatically for me I won't need to bother with that either. I'm sure their are limits to how much FaceGen can erase of an expression from a photograph but as you see in the example it can erase a slight one.
So that concludes my side-by-side review of the FaceGen pro 1.6 vs FaceGen Pro 1.9 DAZ 3D export results. We need a similar Headshop 7 (or Headshop 9) vs Headshop 10 review. FaceGen Pro can do more but I recommend that you use a trial copy of FaceGen Pro to evaluate those. And no, I don't work for Singular Inversions or Abalone Software LLC or know the owners or the workers of those businesses, but I do like their software and have bought SW in the past and present from both of those businesses.
"Well I would like to see a demo of HeadShop 10 from you. Their promo page at DAZ isn't done with too many illustrations of it's capabilities, the example images are vga sized, and it has no demo that I can test it with.""
Wow! You did miss the video pasted right on the promo page that IS A DEMO, in the sense that it shows the original photos being transformed into a 3D head and even a 3D print.
Forgiver me if I cannot say for the two completely irrevelant FaceGen pictures you show that have no reference photos attached so no one can tell if they are any good.
But maybe I miss the point - I thought this was a thread about HeadShop 10 impressions and not FaceGen:-(
Oh, yes, I completely missed that and the product feature text too. Thanks.
....so after viewing the video I guess I'll be buying Headshop too...
The next question I have is if I own Headshop 7 Windows can I buy the Headshop 10 for Windows Upgrade?
You mean Faceshop 7?
No, upgrades only work with previous version
Yes, it was called Faceshop 7 then. In that case I'll wait for a while. Mostly for the Hairshop & Dressshop integration. Are you going to improve those products?
Interesting stuff. I'm taking a look at the Facegen demo right now. I might buy Headshop 10 while its still on sale so I can do a direct comparison myself. At least Daz has that 30 day return policy, its just that I generally prefer not doing that.
Right now, however, I have to say Facegen wins on specs:
-Facegen can do 4096x4096 textures, exactly twice the resolution Headshop 10 offers of 2048x2048. In distant shots this wont matter, but up close there could be a noticeable difference texture quality.
-Placing the points on Facegen is presented in a more simple manner. The interface shows you one point at a time, and exactly where to place it. This is so easy you don't really need to read a tutorial. Every step is explained in the software for you. However, Headshop does have a lot more points to work with, which could lead to a better morph. So it is possible that Facegen offers a better texture, while Headshop offers a better morph. But I have not made that comparison yet.
-Facegen did a pretty decent job applying the head texture to the standard Genesis 2 skin without any bad seems. I fined tuned it further in GIMP. Facegen offers the entire G1/2 body texture set. It also tells you exactly where to find these textures to apply them.
-Both softwares offer optional profile photos for more accuracy. Facegen has options for both a left and right profile pic.
-Facegen is $69 for the standard version that can export to Genesis 1 and 2. To export to Genesis 3, you'll need to shell out pretty hefty $139. I believe Headshop 10 can do all 3 Genesis figures, and retails at $99.99. Of course, it is on sale for $69.97 right now. I don't think Facegen ever goes on sale. But Facegen also offers a free demo, though the demo places a rather bright green "FG" logo on the figure's forehead. The texture is easy enough to fix, I already did that, but the creator made the brilliant move of even including this branding on the morph itself. Obviously the creator knew people would try to photoshop the textures from the free demo, lol. There is a note on the purchase page that you can email Facegen if you own the Standard version for a coupon discount to upgrade to Pro, but it doesn't say how much that is. I'd be leaning towards just getting the G2 anyway, but it would be nice to have that flexibilty for down the road.
Once I get time, I'll dig into Headshop to compare and post my results of the same person modeled in both programs.
Thanks in advance for this - I'm sure I'm not the only one interested in seeing the results.
- Greg
Yeah, I'd like to see a side-by-side comparison of the same pic done in both programs but will have to wait until I do so. My concern about the higher number of control points in Headshop is that you most do them to get good results rather than the SW constructing a 3D mask based on lighting and expected pixel depth from the camera plane.
No problem. I wanted to go ahead and buy Headshop 10 while its still on sale, because it doesn't go on sale all that often. 9 only went on sale twice to my knowledge in the time I had it wishlisted. And the second time was just before HS10 released...
So far I'm having some issues with Headshop just working. It has crashed twice on me. The instructions are crazy and sometimes flat out wrong. The manual keeps refering to Headshop 1 or 9 instead of 10??? And it sometimes refers to outdated files or instructions. For example, the readme tells you to look for "dzfaceshoploader.dll." But the ACTUAL file name is "abaloneHeadShopLoader.dll." I was freaking out trying to find this until I realized it was the 2nd name (my folder is open on the right, that's not in the readme.) You can click on these to see a larger image.
Oh well. Lets get face cloning.
My test subject here is a picture of of the legend himself, David Bowie.
I'll start with Facegen. I do not have any profile pics here, so portrait only. Plus this image is only 600x600, so I know this is kind of a tough project. But I was able to create a face in Facegen in a couple minutes. One downside to FG is you have to load each texture into the surface tab yourself. Slightly tedious. But at least it gives you this option. Make note that even though the body textures are based on the same Genesis 2 male, the new textures that FG creates will be altered by color to match. If you follow instructions and turn the glossy down to 0 for each skin texture and face, you can achieve a fairly seemless look. I added hair, though I have nothing like the image. I also edited out the giant "FG" plastered on his forehead. But you can stll see the FG in the morph itself standing out like he was branded. So disregard that part. The worst part is the eyes. I can understand that given how Bowie's eyes are quite unique. I could probably clean the eyes up.
Now on to Headshop. Eh...as I said above, HS gave me trouble. You are supposed to start HS from DS it seems, because doing so outside of Daz caused crashes. You have to load your base figure, which can be anyone, and then you must choose all the parameters you are going for. I hope you don't overlook one, there's a lot. This part confused me, because I didn't pick any parameters. Once HS opens, you get this.
That's a lot of dots! Good thing there is an explanation:
That's just a bit confusing though, and it doesn't really help a whole bunch. Basically, you click a dot once to turn it red, once red you can then move it. After unclicking the autodot button, there was no prompt to advance. I didn't know what to do here. I see stuff saying what I can do, but it doesn't tell me exactly how.
So I clicked on export, and the thing crashed.
But it did export something into Daz!
I have no idea what happened to the eyes, lol, but if you can look aside from those, it didn't turn out too bad. Another thing that drives me nuts is the hair painted on the forehead. I suppose I can fix that like I can the branded FG in demo Facegen, but obviously if I owned FG then that would not be an issue anymore. Also, HS has no built in way to adjust to the surrounding skin textures like FG does, meaning you can get seems between the face and bordering textures. As you can see, it looks like he has makeup on his whole face, that was not an issue with FG. Also, HS doesn't tell you where the morph it created is. I had to find it, and it is simply called "fs" visible in the paramters tab. Yeah, that's real intuitive....
FG is absolutely more user friendly at this point. However, HS might have more options to fine tune the head shape. I will try another face with a higher resolution image and with a profile to see what happens.
Wow, thanks alot. What I'm doing with FaceGen is exporting as a morph. It exports the texture it created from the picture too but it's not really suitable to use. So I've been looking in the DAZ Store for textures that are close to suitable or reading about iRay techniques to alter DAz 3D textures from being too tan for my current needs.
For a picture though like you one you used for Bowie I would think you can use the texture that came with George and they'll work pretty easily. For younger pictures of Bowie, say Ziggy or Let's Dance age, you have almost too many Genesis 3 textures to choose from that will be pretty close.
If you photoshop/gimp out his eyebrows, at Rendo you can buy a fibremesh eyebrow bundle for the Genesis 3 characters that are morphable.
The last thing is Bowie's hair, thair are quite a few styles that approximate his more wild styles but I've not seen anything but the Genesis 2 Brian hair that is somewhat similar to the hairstyle of the Bowie picture of your experiment.
Please note that HeadShop 10 also has new touch-up and paint tools.
I think too that your Bowie turned out reasonably. Try to find a profile to make the Bowie nose, too.
I watched the Quick Start video again because my Genesis3 head meshes weren't deforming, but the texture was deforming to fit the standard G3 heads instead. The polygons definitely deform to the photo in your video (and clearly in other peoples' attempts), but not in my version. Any clues why?
Also, when a profile picture has been loaded and I try to redo the profile part of the process, there's an exception error as Headshop seems unable to overwrite the existing profile image and I'm stuck with the first attempt.
Headshop10
Windows7 64bit
Actually, I realised I was missing a stage. It works fine. I recommend the use of high rez photos.
Bug observation I have stumbled on that throws HS10 off. I had an Iray mesh light in the shape of a sphere that was throwing off the morph creation. I got rid of it and it worked fine. I added some items that had Iray surfaces into the scene and tried using HS10 but the process for creating the morph ended in morph creation failure. After removing all items/characters with Iray surfaces I was able to get HS10 to work correctly. This should probably be fixed since PBR in DAZ Studio s here to stay. When you load a character into HS10 there are strange anomalies like headshrinking and a big imprint of the object with IRAY surfaces imposes itself over the character. I had an Iray sphere behind the camera and perspective view out of the way and not in front of the subject. The errors I get after reading the lofgile are that added geometry caused the morph creation to fail. This is what happens when an Iray surfaced object is in your scene at the time of starting HS. See attached picture...