Rune 7 - looks same-old-same-old disappointing
DavidGB
Posts: 570
I happen to like the look of real strong athletic women, like some of the heptathletes, MMA fighters, martial artists and what-not (NOT bodybuilders), so a new supposedly strong athletic warrior woman from DAZ, I should be lapping it up with a spoon and buying with dizzying speed.
But we've already got Gia 7 and Karen 7, even Eva 7, all advertised as strong athletic women, and from the promos Rune 7 looks basically the same type yet again.
DAZ - look at the variation between Gianni 7, Leo 7 and Lee 7. Slim. medium, bulky muscularity, Differing levels of lean and muscle definition.
Now look at Karen 7, Gia 7, Rune 7. What? All the same slim but not particularly lean athletic sort. All about the same body fat percentage and therefore level of muscle definition. All, with arms down, outer shoulder width is less then max hip width even though a lot of women athletes, quite a few especially amongst the more genuinely athletic actresses (like Caity Lotz, Jessica Biel for example), and even some singers (e.g. Madonna), arms down the armpits are wider apart than the max hip width, never mind the outer side of the shoulders. Gia 6, modelled on Gina Carano, actually had wider than the usual extremely narrow shoulders of all DAZ female figures, even though they were narrower than Gina Carano's actual shoulders, but with Gia 7, and with Karen 7 and Rune 7 too, it's back to pigeon shoulders for all.
How about a Lee 7 very lean female equivalent (not sub 5% bodyfat, but somewhere around 8-10%)? How about the bigger, bulkier MMA fighter build that would be the female Gianni 7 equivalent?
What's especially galling with these Genesis 3 female figures is that one cannot alter the apparent bodyfat level through changing the muscle definition (DEFINITION, not bulk), because the lack of mesh edgeloops following the surface muscle outlines - unlike on every DAZ female figure since original Stephanie - means one can't dial the muscle definition up or down; the Bodybuilder Definition dial (used alone, without the Bodybuilder Bulk) could be used for this on Genesis and G2F, altering the apparent BMI and bodyfat proportion, but can't on Genesis 3 because the Genesis 3 version is an SD morph and so can't and doesn't affect the muscle outlines. An HD morph is required to give the functionality of the Genesis and G2F versions of BodyBuider Definition, and allow variation of leanness for different types of athlete ... but you haven't made it and put it up for sale. If the trio of Karen 7, Gia 7 and Rune 7 each were significantly different in leanness and bulk the way Gianni 7, Leo 7 and Lee 7 are, that would be another way of beihg able to generate a range of athletic and fighter/warrior types - but they're not, they're all basically the SAME type of athletic body.
(Oh - and by the way: using the Musculature morph pack for this kind of variation presents, I've discovered, a HUGE problem. Trying to create a G3F version of one of my G2F characters, i did try using a bunch of the Musculature morphs at various settings - and not at 1, the highest setting of any of them was 0.4, most were lower - I found that I could no longer pose the character: with the musculature morpsh dialled in, even at relatively low levels, I got truly hideous mesh crumpling and self intesection in the armpits on arms down, the abdoman on bend forward, and in the thigh/hip on thighs-side-to-side. It was truly appalling and made the character unusable.)
DAZ, you really should have produced an HD morph that produces the effect of the Genesis 2 and Genesis Bodybuilder Definition effect for inclusion in the main Bodymorph pack, at no more than the minimum HD level required to give the same effect as the SD Genesis 2 and Genesis versions. PAs, somebody make a simple morph set (at the minimum HD level required, preferably no more than lvl 2, absolutely no more than lv3) that produces the effect of the Genesis 2/Genesis Bodybuilder Definition (NOT Bulk) morphs but with the morph split into ... arms, legs, upper torso (down to the bottom of the ribs), lower torso (inlcuding abs) and neck, and I will buy it instantly it hits the store.
I'm especially disappointed, looking at the Rune 7 promos, you haven't even included an option, like you did with Lee 7, for some vascularity. Especially the cephalic vein running down the bicep, a little towrds the outside, from where it disappears under the delts down to the elbow. Rune 7 is just yet another in a long line of confirmations that I've been getting since 2004 that no-one at DAZ has ever actually made even the most cursory study of even the obvious features of real female athletes and fighters (ATHLETES and FIGHTERS, not gym bunny models), but as women get leaner with even just some muscle bulk, as body fat levels drop, about the first vein to become prominent when the muscles are under load (like holding a sword as per the promos, or throwing a javelin, or exerting themselves in martial arts) is that cephalic vein. Bit more bodyfat off and the major veins of the forearm will start to stand out. It would be really nice if you included just a few realistic options to go alongside those of the male 'warrior' figures - not the full all over vascularity of the Lee 7 option, as that's rare amongst women (because it's phsiologically harder for womento get their bodyfat that low, and unlike in men low bodyfat has side effects in women, like stopping the menstrual cycle, oestrogen levels plummeting and bone decalcification), but the female equivalent, which would be especially the cephalic vein over the bicep and some forearm vascularity (and maybe a neck vein option)*. What makes the lack of provision of this kind of reality for the female figures especially egregious with the Genesis 3 range is the fact that, for the first time since V2 and M2, the female figures cannot borrow morphs from the male ones. With original Stephanie, V3, S3, V4 and G2F (not an issue with Genesis, of course) I could always easily transfer morphs for athletic physical features that had been neglected in the female figures from M2, M3, D3, M4 and G2M respectively - even HD morphs in the G2F/M case. But G2M and G2F aren't vertex compatible, unlike all those other female/male figure pairings, and while transfer utility will work for morph transfer of SD morphs, it doesn't for HD morphs, so I can't borrow the 'arm vein' HD morph from one PA G3M product for G3F the way I could borrow assorted PA G2M HD vasculairty morphs for G2F.
C'mon. It's the 21st century. I'm not asking for the whole store to go to realism and utterly stop the fantasy-sexy. But just a little regard for women as athletes and even fighters in the ways they actually ARE in the real world. ONE realistic athlete-warrior -7 figure alongside the 4 fantasy ones. Or just the ability to alter the muscle definition (NOT bulk - independently of bulk) with the has-to-be-HD equivalent of the Bodybuilder Definittion morph of the pervious two generations (better split by region, but I'd take just the one FBM), and just a cephalic and forearm veins vascularity option. With just those two things, combined with the other morphs I could actually make all the realistic different types of athletic bodies (as different sports involve different training which produces differently shaped bodies) with Genesis 3 which i can with G2F, Genesis and even V4, but can't with G3F - certainly not, as things stand, without using morphs that break the bending.
Very disappointing, seeing the Rune 7 promos. Just the same-old-same-old. Minor variation on the Gia-7-Karen-7 theme, and won't let me make any character I couldn't using Gia 7 or Karen 7 or Eva 7. If I buy Rune 7 it'll be for the textures.
*Probably rather forlorn note to any PA who actually feels like obliging this request for a bit of G3F vascularity, whether through HD morph or displacement map: I've had quite a bit of trouble getting the vascularity I wan't on G2F, despite having a bunch of PA vascularity products, both HD morph and displacement map, for G2F, G2M and Genesis from a number of different PAs, and even though transfering the HD morphs and displacement maps from G2M and Genesis to G2F is trvially easy. The problem is that the products all don't fit in with the way veins appear on women as body-fat levels drop. Actually they don't with men either, but it's not a problem going to more vascular than you originallly intended with male characters the way it is with female ones. With women (and men, actually), as body fat drops, the first vein to become really noticeable is the cephalic vein over the bicep (diappearing under the deltoid). Just that (and the inner basilic vein, but that's not exposed to view as much), NOT all the smaller branches than run off it across the biceps. Then the main forearm veins - though they're more noticeable under load, though the cephalic vein, once it appear, tends to stand out even relaxed. Then neck and forehead when exerting. And that's about as far as it goes with most women athletes - a few will go even lower and start showing some leg and groin veins (of course there are the female bodybuilders, shredded and dehydrated for contest, as vascular as the most vascular men, bot ONLY bodybuilders ever look like that, nto athetes). For my character, given her level and type of physical training, I wanted the cephalic vein, and sometimes main forearm and neck and forehaf. The problem with all the Genesis/G2F/G2M vascularity products is that (a) on most the cephalic vein was too far over, towrds the bicep/tricep meeting; (b) couldn't do the cephalic alone, and it continued with branches over the deltoid when the main cephalic vein disappears under the deltoid where ti meets it; (c) the cephalic wasn't strong enough compared with either the minor branches off it or the forearm veins, so to get a noticeably vascular cephalic vein, it could only be done with the web of minor veins off it very visible, plus way over the top forearm veins. To get the effect I wanted, modelled off some real world examples and actually the most common type of female athlete vascularity, despite having a bunch of different Hd morphs and displcement maps made for G2F, G2M, Genesis, M4 and V4 by assorted vendors (Zev0, Sickleyield, SimonWM, and others)m I ended up having to discard all the HD morph options (as not being a PA I couldn't edit them, which i'd have done with SD morphs), then discard all the displacement maps, then take what was supposed to be a vein color overlay (to match an HD morph) for limb texture maps for G2M, change it into a greyscale map, map transfer it to G2F UV, then edit it to considerably lighten the cephalic vein WRT all the other veins, also fading it out at the deltoid junction. End result is a displacement map for which i have an 'unloaded' setting (cephalic noticeably vascular, forearm main veins there if you look for them) and a 'loaded' setting (cephalic even more noticeable, and forearm veins now quite prominent). Point is, if any PA is going to do a 'vascularity solution', especially for G3F but acvtually even for G3M, then it needs to be able to produce a very noticeable cephalic vein only (for one example on males, look at Sherlock in Elementary when his upper arms are bare - the cephalic veins are always very noticeable in a way no other veins are other than forehead an neck sometimes), plus an option for less pronouned main forearms, plus neck and maybe forehad, and NOTHING ELSE. Yes, then one can have options for more extreme vascularity and all over the abdomen, legs, back and whatnot; but the thing is, just cephalic, some forearm, some neck, some forehad ONLY is a very common real world look, and it's something certainly I want rather than sub-5% bodybuilder vascularity.
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Comments
Well said.
I can't really think of much to add to that, which is a rare thing for me.
Agreed.
The bundled content and the hairs disappointed me this time. I don't really need the umpteenth fantasy warrior chica. At least mix it up and give her... Futuristic outfits, or modern soldier uniforms, or somehting different. Warriors don't always have to be fantasy extras from Conan.... There are so many ways to depict a warrior.
I was a little disappointed too. Totally agree on the vascularity, I thought her arms look a little off without the cephalic vein. I also thought her ankles were probably a little too thick given the appearance of relatively low body fat.
Still bought her though. Liked the bows that gave the additional 10%. Sucker for a sale.
I think you guys are being a bit harsh.
I'm seeing some nice muscle tone and vasculatrity here. Maybe not the exact vein you where wanting but adding that in is pretty easy. And I think with the right settings the veins and muscle-tone will really pop and take a more center stage. I'm kind of loving this figure. I just wish I could aford to get her. lol
It will be interesting to see what the HD morphs do for this figure when they are released.
That vein on her bicept, is that the one you're talking about:
http://www.daz3d.com/forums/discussion/comment/1264406/#Comment_1264406
Edited to replace image with link to the post with the image
I think she looks great, but I am disappointed that there isn't a wider variety of body types. There are a couple of larger figures (Bethany, and then Olympia also being more muscular at the same time) and one sort of thinner figure (Arabella) but the general rule is tall, supremely fit, trim figures. There is only so much you can do with basic sliders when the HD sections are all locked away and no one is doing anything with them.
Not really.
More of the same; I haven't bought the last few as they didn't bring anything new. I bought the first 6 bundles for G3, after that it was more of the same and 7 series characters are expensive.
Arabella and Eva are still my favourite; I judge any new release against those.
They need to be both different and as good. Mei Lin 7 was a close call, but decided against her, but will pick her up eventually I expect.
I think Rune's base skin texture is the most realistic so far. :-)
Everyone is entitled to his/her own opinion, though, and I respect that. Not looking to argue.
I understand this sentiment. I don't think that any of the official Daz characters look "bad" or are lacking in quality. I bought Mei Lin because I loved the detail of her skin as some customers showed off. She was also more mature and, well, Asian and so offered some distinct variety from the others. I think that Rune offers the same sort of level of quality, but it's not that big a gap from the older genesis 3 females (and there's no March Madness sale on to make me leap without thinking.) If you don't have the older figures, however, I'd say she's one of the best options to pick.
While I don't agree about the "more of the same", I do agree about the price. The 7 figures are quite expensive and don't even include the HD. For the base price we should be getting the HD included. Expecting us to fork over another $40 for the HD is just rediculous IMO.
PC+ membership + wait for sales. One pro bundle alone will pay off 3 months of PC+ membership while still saving money. I don't think I've ever paid more than $15 or so for a HD morph.
lx is right. You'd be shocked at the current PC discounts. Pleasantly shocked.
Every time I let my membership lapse, I wish I hadn't. Once, on an order, the total was actually cheaper WITH a quarterly PC membership added. It wasn't a whopping big order either, because I don't do whopping big orders.
I'm actually really not liking Rune's eyebrows they seem really narrow to me.
Hmm, I must be missing something as I just signed back up again and while I have gotten a few good deals, I am not shocked in the least, at least not enough to resign when it is up again,
For a new user who doesn't have much content it's super good. If you're a longtime user with a lot of content already you obviously won't get as much out of it.
3 month PC+ = $24
Pro Bundle:
List $134.95
PC+ $94.47
PC Intro: $66.13
That means if you sign up and buy an older pro bundle you pay $94.47+24=118.47 = a $16.48 saving as well as giving you 3 months of 30% off Daz Originals and access to PC+ items (although newer ones are way more expensive these days :/ still great value overall) and 2x $6 saving coupons per month. If you do it buying a newer pro bundle it's a total of $90 so less of an outright saving but still all the same benefits and still cheaper overall. Plus a freebie every week and another one every month (not sure if everyone gets that one?)
So if the conditions are "want a pro bundle" it's worth it, and "will probably buy a Daz Original maybe once a month" "will buy an older PA item worth $18 maybe once a month" then it's even more worthwhile.
Of course you can improve this even further by a. waiting for a gift card sale and buying a discounted gift card for store credit, and then waiting for a PC+ sale and buying a membership at a discount using that store credit (uh assuming you can, not 100% on that. I know you can't buy gift cards with store credit.)
So yea, if you need content it's worth it regardless of timing and can be much more so when the right sales are on. Unless you hate every freebie and buy 0 things for 3 months there shouldn't be a situation where PC+ isn't worth it.
Thanks LX for the breakdown which is pretty much what I had also, I agree it's a great deal for new users. I am a very patient shopper and because of such I usually get some great deals without being a PC member which has probably made me more jaded and why I am not seeing as much of a benefit as I had hoped. The only reason I signed up this time around was i got a combo of items that with the membership got me carrara 8.5 for less than $24, so it was worth it.
Yeah it all depends on the circumstances but it's rarely actually a bad deal.
After my buying frenzy of content last year I picked up an annual membership at a nice discount during the PC+ sale. I haven't really spent much this year, but that's a lot of freebies adding up and with all the sales on, there's almost always a decent opportunity to make use of the two coupons even if those are the only times you buy anything. (At worst you can grab an older DO item for 30% discount + $6 off. I've gotten a fair few items for almost free that way.)
Yes, remember the PC+ is most valuable during the Platinum Club Anniversary sale in October, I believe? Also, March Madness had some wonderful stacking with PC+ discounts. Add that to the general discount on DOs, the coupons, AND all the PC+ items at huge discounts, AND the PC club freebies (like, four every month!) and the PC+ membership pays for itself in no time.
During the PC anniversary sale, I think I picked up around 5 or 6 pro bundles....most cost me around $20 with the stacked discounts. So while it may not appear to be worth it at the moment, during those big sales, it more than makes up for the other times.
Here is the problem, with 1 exception, every model coming out tries to embody some kind of human ideal.
you win...congrats you did it..over and over again.
There is only so many ideal figures...we got them
Want to sell a bunch more basic figure....give us some CLASSIC - flawed figures.
the classic...skinny girl
the classic...grumpy man
the classic...plain jane
the classic...spy villian
we have enough of the classic greek god/goddess form
just a suggestion
http://greatist.com/grow/100-years-womens-body-image I feel like we only get the 2000s and occasionally some 2010s in figures. There are so many more options there...
-cough- I want a 1920s dance girl with all the period outfits and hairstyles to go with her (also good opportunity for extravagant rich guy with over the top suits.)
I would really like the next bundle to be a new and improved dog / cat bundle, so many have already asked for these so Daz should see the potential of sales there, and the original dog and cat could greatly be improved upon. The overdone theme of men and women is really getting old, they are all pretty much the same, in my opinion insetad of releasing a new same old character each month, they could take longer between each release and give us something really different.
I feel like they're doing the person (now regularly two people) a month thing to get as much money as possible without regard to trying to make individual pillars for other PA figures to be built around these days. Which is fine whatever but I'd like the other things too.
An up to date cat and dog would be highly appreciated.
Also on the topic of "just use morphs" one glaring omission I've noticed is that while women with slim / straight thighs do exist in the world (especially in modelling/fashion) there is no official way to make them (shapeshift and one of thorne's body morph kits do have a couple of options to approximate it.) None of the official morph kits or figures have any way to really adjust this area which sucks.
Eva is my favorite G3 model so far. Rune looks good, I especially like her face but I want to buy Kimo first so she's gonna have to wait : )
I create my own shapes, I dial in small amounts of head shapes sometimes, but body shapes (is never I think) well close to never at least; the one thing I'm most interested in is the texture; that is the the main item for sale, and is covered all too often.
I've started shopping elsewhere a few months ago, and that has continued; I still buy from Daz, they have some great stuff, just less often.
I will say that she has one of the nicest armor sets I've see in a long time.
Methinks DAZ has been taking too many lessons from the fast food industry. Ever really look at the picture menu at a fast food restaurant like Burger King, McDonalds, Kentucky Fried Chicken, Wendy's, etc.? The food all looks identical. It's all piles of stuff on a bun with subtle differences of shade where the green, brown & red bits are. And why oh why do they think making the menu into video will help?
And like the fast food industry, your purchased DAZ item has only a vague resemblance to the picture in the menu. 