Lips, not so real
cherpenbeck
Posts: 1,416
There is something which prevents me from buying most new characters: the lips. As with the new Hero 7, most men show a kind of blown-up lips, lips I wold expect on a beauty queen, female. In real life nearly all men I know tend to have much smaller lips.
Even the majority of the DAZ women don't look very much realistic with ballooning lips. Or they look like they just had their lips plumped. Yes, I know, with all these morpeh packs I can make the lips smaller or give them other forms. But if I have to change the faces much, I can start with basic Genesis figures, don't need the several other morphs. (Exceptions are figures like Bethany7, wich are definitely different and beautiful in their own right)
Am I the only one who thinks these appearance features look somehow wrong? Or is it intentional, because all other buyers wish for this overbording beauty standard?
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Comments
Yes you are incorrect. The thing is I used actual reference to base that character upon. So, yes those are his lips.
Anytime someone thinks something is wrong with a product, I would actually encourage them to purchase anatomy books and references so they are properly informed, so they do not post incorrect assumptions.
Also note that is mouth is much smaller that other G3M men. The fact that Genesis 3 has facial rigging allows that small mouth to be posed without messing up the morph like it would have in previous generations.
Don't think I just wish to criticize Hero 7. It was just an example of the general appearance of DAZ figures, which in the majority have very full lips. I don't say they are anatomical incorrect. I just state that in real live lips tend to be much smaller (probabely due to our way of life, which includes much stress and intensifies muscle tonus), and as I'm striving for real looking ordinary people, the typical DAZ standard looks artificial /artifically enhanced to me. Starting with the lips.
Once again you are applying incorrect assumptions about realism and personal preferences about what you think realism is, in spite of being told that the reference used for lips ARE from an actual person so they are actually real. When you actually take the time look at references of people, you will find that people don't have a particular type of lip or nose,etc... You can argue the point, but it is simply is what it is.
I think in case of 'Hero 7' it is not a matter of bigger or smaller lips, but more of a pose. On female figures even the most unnatural, distorted and even ridiculous poses or expressions are accepted, but not on men. Men always have to look plain and 'natural'. I don't know why it is like that, and I am far from accepting these weird rules concerning women, but I too found the pouting lips of this figure a bit strange. They don't look natural to me; they appear just too – posing. My personal taste.
I've found the lips to be a problem with most models. They simply look like a person with silicon injections, and this is even on teen models. Even if there are models in real life that have these qualities, it is generally one of the first giveaways that the artwork is CG. I tend to have to thin the lips on most models before I do a render out of basic habit. I surround my work area with tons of reference materials and when looking at the average person on the street lips don't tend to be that exaggerated. The ratio of pumped lips in Daz is definitely not proportional to that of the national population.
The other thing is that while many models comes with lipstick and color options, for some weird reason a natural lip texture without any make up is often excluded. This is the one area where male models do come out on top.
Whoever makes characters makes them to their own perception of what they find attractive.
So it is no surprise that you may find products made by certain PA's to have a look that appeals to their vision.
Thankfully Genesis (1,2,3) figures come with enough morph options that specific details can be made to however anyone wants for their renders.
I actually tend to find male lips rather on the thin side personally. (With the exception of teens who are stylized ) I don't like thin lips on my men, and spend time adjusting that out if I can.
I do think that some female models overdo duck face lips, but that seems popular and unlikely to change.
One thing I usually have to adjust is the lip gloss shine added to male lips. That doesn't worwk for me, but it is easy enough to fix.
nelsonsmith, the 'pumped' G3F lips are sometimes really extreme. There is a G3F character at another popular 3D shop whose lips look like the figure had a bad cosmetic surgery accident. BUT: I like it that the male figures now don't have the ugly 'money box-lips' which were considered as being 'masculine' for too long...
The lips on the hero character look well within the range of human norm to me. The set is wonderful, and if you don't like the head shapes, you can use the body only shapes. I'm so glad to see this set. I really think it is the best male expansion pack to for gen 3 male to date.
M3D adds figure bulk to his guys, so these aren't skinny little nymphet men.
I don't see anything wrong with the lips on the M3D Hero 7 HD Shapes for Michael 7 product, so don't know why it was referenced as an example by the OP. and I think really at the end of the day, how a character comes out to look is solely because of how the artist has created it. I like to think of artists playing God in giving looks to the character they created, so I don't really think they should be called out for being creative and imaginative, that is just my opinion though, and I'm not looking to have a discussion about it :-)
I don't think I have thin lips and seen other guys and women don't either though probably seen more women with thinner lips then men maybe its a region thing world wise
Serene Night and ThatGuy, I think we are speaking of the guy on the promo pic only. Besides that, Hero 7 really looks like a great figure!
As a side note, promo #8 is the head morph with thinner lips.
Having been a long time user of V4/M4, I do find that the lips on all the Genesis generations tend to puff out more than V4's. Even when creating my own characters, I find the lips tend to puff out too easily and I have to keep reversing it...
Well, thank you ever so much for sharing that :(
Who's "Hero 7"? Don't you mean "Hiro 7"? Even then, there isn't a Gen 7 (Genesis 3) interation of him. Daz discarded him along with David and Freak after Gen 5 (Genesis 1).
...yeah breast sizing is still an issue. I ended up having to purchase special morph packs to create more viable teen and preteen characters (as I have several in the story I am writing). Simply reducing the breast size doesn't always work with the aureola and nipples collapsing unnaturally when dialled below a certain percentage and these distortions usually transfer to clothing fits. I've even imported custom chest morphs I have through GenX (for Genesis and G2F).
I also have an issue with the "pouty lip" look I see so many female characters seem have (not into every character I create ending up looking like a, Angelina Jolie clone). Again, I invested in extra morph packs and merchant resources to make the necessary adjustments I needed.
Male-M3dia's latest queen offering
http://www.daz3d.com/m3d-hero-7-hd-shapes-for-michael-7
Yeah the breast thing is a whole other issue. I understand the whole "PA's make what they find attractive" fallback, but it makes me speculate on the average age of PA's, and where their notions of female proportions originated from.
Still, the figures obviously sell well so you can't say they haven't tapped into some Daz user zeitgeist.
Queen that was selling sell ;) (check those male charts boo ;) )
LOL, that was some kind of freudian slip of the fingers. Should have been "offering" not "queen". Don't know where my mind was at. Any additions to the male runtimes DNA is good for me.
Still haven't had my first cuppa of the day.
One need only look at images of the young Shah Ruk Khan or Hrithik Roshan ( two of the most famous actors in the world ) to see lip shapes that can only easily be acheived in Daz with packages like Hero 7.
I personally know lots of Hindustani and Pakistani men with what you term as 'beauty queen lips'.
The rare times I visit the commons, I always see threads lamenting the limited gene pool of M7- then- when a PA gives us something different -unique sculpts that can be used as is or easily dialed down- lets not complain!
Shah was one of the inspirations for the nose and lips, but not the actual reference:
this guy:
For me personally, I think the lips on Hero 7 look very good. As a general rule, fuller lips are more attractive to me than thinner lips, regarless of gender or race. Don't get me wrong, there is such thing as too much of a good thing. If I were searching attractive lips I think many of the more universally accepted beauties of either gender will have fuller lips.
I didn't know what the fuss was about. I took a look at that Hero 7 page. Holy cow. Those are massive lips. lol! Sure, it may be from a real person. But no way that's anywhere near the norm.
Let's put it this way...I wouldn't use Hero 7's lips to be the basis for a Mick Jagger morph.