[RANT] Sick and tired of the lack of support from daz!
shadowhawk1
Posts: 2,206
As a paying customer of daz products, I am curious. Curious as to why they chose to just up and stop supporting programs or parts of programs they own? You have Hexagon, Bryce and Carrara that have not seen updates in some time as well as their new figures not working natively in most of them. Power Pose for Studio hasn’t been updated since the introduction of Genesis and has been left to users of Studio to bring it up to date to work with Genesis, Genesis 2 and to some extent with Genesis 3.
Now since the introduction of Iray, and although they say they are still supporting 3Dlite, we are seeing more and more products that only have native Iray shaders only. There are many of us who are not interested in photo-realistic rendering and as one of those artists, I would like to know why you (daz) are choosing to abandon 3DLite? Please do not give me that line that it's not being abandoned. Daz chose to bring out Studio with 2 separate render engines that require 2 different kinds of shaders, They then turn around and don’t require PA’s to support both render engines. It wasn’t that long ago that Daz required PA’s to have seperate settings for thier products to work natively in both Poser and Studio to sell here. Why are they not requiring the same for both render engines, one of which that they have used since the beginning?
Now I understand the flood of shaders that are set up for Iray only, it is a new render engine and the market is wide open for that. Some of the artists that create sets and clothing are really outstanding with offering support with both Iray and 3DLite, while others have dropped 3DLite support and offer items in Iray only. When I buy a set I look to make sure that it has 3DLite shaders among other things (Not going to get into other issues here) and there have been a lot of missed sales to these vendors because there is no 3DLite support. Now if I am the only one that feels this way, I guess my money doesn’t carry much weight, but if there are others like myself that feel this way, now is the chance to speak up and be heard in hopes that we can get the PA’s to continue to offer support for both render engines supported by daz.
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Comments
Daz have never made PAs do anything - encouraged possibly but not forced, PA's choose what they do or don't support; usually from what I gathered its driven by sales. There was a time when only Poser was supported especially concerning shaders and surface settings, as the DS user base got bigger it obviously proved finacially viable to support DS (I stopped buying anything that didn't have DS mats for a long time); I'm going to presume that the extra effort put into creating 2 sets of mats just isn't paying off for PAs.
And sorry I really don't unstand this 'I don't do realism so I don't use Iray' attitude - I don't do realism but I still use Iray and have come to prefer Iray despite it taking hours to render on my machine.
As a PA, I first was reluctant using Iray. But I think that was just me being lazy and resisting change. Since then, I've been experimenting with Iray, and yes, there are still a few things I would like to be improved in Iray. But overall I find it to be a much better render engine than 3Dlite. I still support 3Dlite, but it's becoming more and more challenging to find tricks to make renders in 3Dlit looking as realistic as in Iray. I know there aren't much products showing both Iray and 3Dlite promos, but when there are, look at the difference... Iray is just more realistic... and if you have a proper graphic card it renders much faster. I'll keep supporting both till DAZ doesn't require it anymore, both honnestly, and I have a few years of creating content under my belt, overall, Iray is much better than 3Dlite as far as realism is concerned. There are a bunch of tutorials available made by DAZ PA's among others, Sickleyield, being the one I turn to the most. Check her out on Youtube, she has great tutorials. It's like everything new, there is a learning curve, but I think you won't regret getting aquainted with Iray. And the learning curve really isn't that bad.
Scorp its quite simple. Here are a few points to keep in mind on the whole render engine dicussions:
1) Art is expressive just like most things in life. Look at a comic verses a movie or a painting, charcoal vs watercoulors. All are art types but they do not look remotely alike. Not everyone wants to portait their work with the hyper realism gloss that iray gives it. They might not feel it conveys the mood they are after.
2) Some of us have been working on serial art for years with 3DL. For consistencys sake it isn't feasible to switch to iray mid stream and the idea of starting all over again would suck the joy of the project out of it for me.
3) I have over 5k products just from DAZ. A good chunk of those are 3DL only. I'm not about to toss out something that i've spent my money on when it still works just fine for some of my art needs. I also have utilities that I like that simply do not work in iray and i'm not paying for them yet again. I'm sure i'm not the only one that thinks like this.
*(edited because I just found out tab apparently means post on the forum )
Point 2 I get completly.
I still use old stuff its really pretty easy to convert stuff to Iray. Yes if you are going for a cartoon look then its not really any good but surely then you have to apply toon shaders, so where's the difference to applying UberIray shader to items with only 3delight settings or even Poser only settings; and as I said I don't do realism I really can't be bothered and it doesn't suit my style, but I still use Iray, people seem to dismiss it as only able to do realism and that seems a bit odd to me.
I guess what I wonder, then, is what is acceptable as a 3DL render as I keep seeing people say they aren't looking to do realistic renders. I think for most PAs, they are trying to do good realism. If you then turn around and can't get 3DL to do that and look as realistic as Iray, it's going to be exasperating after a while. So what is it that people expect from 3DL when they say they don't expect realism?
I know one PA, right now, who is doing a really wonderful environment he created. The Iray renders look great and very realistic, but trying to match that with 3DL has just not been easy or successful. So is it that we PAs are trying to do more than the customer wants out of 3DL?
Because you like Iray, doesn't mean I have too Scorpio, so why force me to use something I don't want to use? I like using 3DLite, does there have to be more to it than that? I also don't understand the need to criticize my choice to use 3DLite over Iray.I am not going to go into the other parts you mentioned since its not relevant to this discussion.
Faveral, I am very appreciative that you support both render engines. I have tried to use Iray and it comes down to a personal choice of liking 3DLite over Iray, I think that we can all agree that a great deal of a persons art comes down to personal choice and thier views. I am working from a ASUS G74 laptop with a NVIDA 560 graphics card with 3gb of memory so I can do iray renders but I chose not too. With 3DLite I am not looking for realism, I am looking for an outlet for my creativity.
Vhardamis,
Thank you for bringing up those great points! Art is an expression and 3DLite suits the my creativity far better than Iray. I am a former Poser user so I still use my Poser runtime for a lot of my work. I have gotten to be pretty good at adjusting settings for my Poser sets and props to work in 3DLite without looking like they are coated in a hard polished surface.
and as I said I don't do realism I really can't be bothered and it doesn't suit my style, but I still use Iray, people seem to dismiss it as only able to do realism and that seems a bit odd to me.
Scorpio,
That is your view and I respect that, so why are you not respecting mine to NOT use Iray? Your art is your art and mine is mine. We don't have to make it the same way.
I'm totally in love with Iray, but... I still do 3DL renders, if I want to achieve the special type of coloring/shadowing that only 3DL can do. It's "realistic" to a point, and will never get the 'crisp' and 'shiny' look (Iray renders throw light at you, while 3DL seems to suck it in). But that's exactly the point. 3DL is not suposed to look like Iray. 3DL (at least to me) has a sort of homely, warm feeling to its renders, with a different colour setting, different refraction, etc.
Perhaps, vendors can see that difference as a selling point. To me, it is a feeling of "Don't try to make the item look the same, because it will never truly work. Instead, create something that looks unique in 3DL, and unique in Iray, in their own way." Some 3DL shaders do not work in Iray, and the other way around, so "use the best of both worlds"... is what I would do. (No idea if I make any sense... I do need something like... breakfast!)
Chris,
You bring up great points here. I can't speak for everyone but I find the current level of realism in 3DLite suits me perfectly. I mainly delve into Superhero and Sci-fi art, for comics that I am working on. I do not need to render an iamge that looks like a screen shot from a HD movie. I think those that are working with Iray are doing some really outstanding work .. Its just not what I am looking for in my work.
BeeMKay,
I couldn't have said it better myself!!
DAZ3D originals and buyouts from PA's are required to have both Iray and 3Delight materials included. Poser materials are no longer 'required' to be supplied. ( i believe Platinum Club products have the same requirements as DAZ3D originals/buyouts)
For brokered products ( from PA's for their own stores ) there is no requirement to make more than one set of materials, although most PA's still try to provide both Iray and 3Delight materials.
But as Faveral has already said, getting the equivalent quality and results for both Iray and 3Delight materials can be problematic.
As a primarily character creator, i will continue supplying both sets of materials for my/our products for as long as i can feasibly create the same quality in materials for both render engines.
As product creators we ALL strive to make content to the best quality that we can, continually pushing ourselves to go higher and better . But when we cannot achieve the same quality with both material types, we will supply the one that looks the best.
DAZ3D has always been known for the top quality products that are sold here, and have a very hard working and talented QA team. To make products that are not the very best that we can do, would demean both ourselves( the PA's ) and the company.
I am a relatively new PA, and the sheer talent, knowledge and enthusiasm of the other PA's that i talk to, have, just fills me with awe. If i can ever get half as good as some of my fellow PA's, i will be a very happy man indeed.
Why do you think I don't respect you view, because I asked a question? You said you were 'not interested in photo-realistic rendering' so I just pointed out that Iray doesn't have to be photo realistic, what you didn't say was - I don't use Iray because I prefer the results I get with 3DL, I also still use 3DL sometimes but it doesn't bother me if I've got to alter the surfaces. I guess I just get tired of peole seemingly thinknig that only photorealistic can be got using Iray and therfore appearing to dismiss it. Just because someone has a different point of view doesn't mean they are trying to force anyone to do anything - I'm just curious why you seem to dismiss Iray so tottally.
Scorpio,
It wasn't your questions, its the way you are expressing your response that makes me ask. You yourself state that you don't like Iray but use it anyway, why? If you don't like it why use it? creating art is supposed to be fun, not an effort in frustration. Your resposes give me the impression that because you use it and do not like it that everyone should be doing the same. I refuse to comprimise something I enjoy just to apease others or to go with the crowd.
Where did I say I don't like it - I actually state that I prefer it despite the long render times on my computer, if I didn't like it I wouldn't use it.
This is my point that I am trying to make, why is everyone trying to make 3DLite and Iray look alike? They are completely different render engines and you have to do a huge amount of extra work in 3DLite to make it look like Iray. I don't think any of us that use 3DLite are asking for that. Working predominately for comic images Iray or making 3DLite look like Iray is overkill for me. As I have stated the current level of 3EDLite works perfect for me, I think it would be a lot easier for PA's to offer material settings for both 3DLite and Iray if they quit trying to get Iray results from 3DLite.
Welcome to being a daz PA 3anson, The PA's are great here and you will learn a lot from them.
This really sums up what's happening to be honest. DAZ has never forced PAs to make anything so it's really a false assertion to say DAZ stopped supporting something in PA products. Whether it's Iray vs 3delight, V4/M4 versus Genesis, Poser vs DAZ Studio, PAs choose what to support, based on what customers prefer. And based on sales from customers, those customers prefer Iray over 3delight because of the results and the ease of setting up scenes. To insist a PA do both would actually be forcing them to support something that they do not wish. Also render results have to be somewhat similar in order for products to pass QA when both materials are included in a product. I almost exclusively use Iray in my products and promos because I like the results that I without the struggle to set up lights as I did in 3delight, and I'm sure I'm probably not in the minority of this opinion as there are a lot of iray products and it has brought of lot of new customers and vendors into DAZ Studio... some of whom didn't like the results of using 3delight and kept them from using DAZ Studio.
Also I don't think it's helpful to infer that using one render engine over another is any less a means of artistic expression. It simply isn't what we use that define our artwork, it's how we use those tools.
Scorpio,
Going back to the point I read that I see that it was still part of something you were trying to relate and not an actual statement by you, so I apologize for misquoting you on that.
You are right, daz doesn't force any of the PA's to support anything, but niehter do they encourage them to support a render engine in thier program. You are trying to relate this to several very tense and volitile arguments and that is not what this is about. People to include daz is unfairly holding 3DLite to a level that it can't maintain given the difference between 3DLite and an unbiased render engine such as Iray. By design they are meant to be different and to try and make them produce renders of comparable quality is like asking a Cadilac to pull a boat trailer.
Your statement that Iray sells more than 3DLite is a misnomer. Of course iray products are selling more, because the majority of products are Iray! All daz is doing is manipulating facts, where is the raw data that shows all sales numbers? I have never filled out a survey saying which render engine I prefer, so I challenge daz to post those numbers that say it ... not the manipulated numbers, the raw data saying as such. You say that you never had any luck lighting with 3DLite, I can understand that, it can be a challenge to get the lighting the way you want, but as a PA you get to set the price of your items and adding a couple of dollars to the final price over the long run would make up for a little bit of headache.
The market determines what a PAs support really. Also PAs support what they want to use. With that it's not really going to please everyone hence these threads. But really there's no denying that Iray has made more of an impact in DS in the short time it has been available than the years of 3delight and the marketplace is reflecting that, so my statement isn't a misnomer nor is DAZ misrepresenting facts. I think people are still in denial of what is happening, and forcing vendors to make things that they don't wish isn't the answer. Also I never said I haven't had luck with 3delight, I said it's far easier to set up lighting with Iray where a lightbub will act like a light bulb rather than placing point lights and spots to get the same results. Iray isn't necessarily realism, it's physically based. And as far as pricing, I can save time and money not including materials, especially if they don't meet the standard the other rendering is getting. Once again, if a vendor doesn't wish to include them or simply they don't want to learn or use 3delight, then really it falls to you to make your own materials if you wish to use that product. By them not including support, it's obvious that they are satisfied with the return they are getting and saying that they would get more money by doing the extra work is generally not the case.
Its interesting that everyone wants to latch onto the whole which is better 3DLite/Iray issue and mask over the fact that daz has a proven history of dropping support of a product when they feel like it. Hexagon, Bryce, Carrara, Power Pose and now 3DLite are all being tossed to the wayside. Iray is the newest fad with some great support from daz flooding the marketplace to cash in on it.
Just to sum up your post, you are saying that it is the PA's as a group directing daz that Iray is the future by not supporting 3DLite and other programs?
As a PA, I can say that my time is severely limited in making content. When I can, I support Poser and Studio- Iray and SSS, but not the other render engines or shader systems. I make what I can with the time I have- and if possible make other options as add-ons as I have with a previous product on another site.
I understand the frustration at times from a customer's point of view, but I've never put it out there simply because I also understand the other side of the spectrum from the seller's point of view.
I still work in Studio and Poser; lumping PAs as a group doing one or the other thing isn't condusive to facts- we do what we can, in the ways we can, with the time we have to do it in. Everyone is different, with different circumstances. Buyers and sellers alike.
Darwin Mishap(s) I was merly echoing Male Media's coment about PA's making and supporting the render engines they want. I appreciate that you support as many programs that you can, and it is PA's such as yourself that I will support first.
And those new PAs will quickly learn that they simply can't please everyone with their finite resources, and those that have sold for years make their sales based on the market, not emotion. It is what it is.
I really like 3delight a lot. However since gen 3 and the arrival of Iray I've noted characters seems more optimized for Iray. I find this particularly noticeable in the main figures.
I like and enjoy using 3delight.
I don't begrudge vendors their choice of what to support but I do think there is a noticable change in some items.
I also think the arrival of Iray has kind of complicated further development of improvements in things like shaders for 3delight which I think is a shame.
I don't think Stonemason ever released any of his products with Bryce support; it was just ruthlessly tossed to the side in favour of what most of his customers wanted (and what he could be arsed to do). I had to set up materials myself, the horror. I need a safe space. But the only ones out there are all for Iray...
You know Male M3dia that sounds a lot like a bullying tactic, if a PA WANTS to support multiple Render Engines or even multipe softwares, why not let them? I find it disheartening that older PA's like yourself seem more intent of being negative about supporting multiple render engines and software instead of encouraging them to do thier best.
Not at all, the point is PAs are free to make what they want and that's really how things are in the marketplace. Though the tone of the original post is more a bullying tactic than anything else where someone is trying to rant to force vendors to make what they don't wish to.
Do you have an example of what you did in IRAY? I'm curious, as I could never get 3Delight to produce the look I wanted; while I do do real renders and love that aspect of IRAY, I'm still trying to produce the style I'm after and struggling with; your post encourages me that it is my skills, or knowledge, that is lacking. :)
Also all those poser props I bought in the past with no 3delight support in the past. If a vendor didn't support 3delight or luxrender I had to roll up my sleeve and make the materials myself.
It looks like it all comes down to creating art. As an Artist, you don't want to be forced to use iRay when your preference is to use 3DL (mine too, by the way), but you'd like DAZ to force other artists to use 3DL when -- ignoring possible sales -- they may prefer to use iRay because they like the results they get.
Published Artists are still artists, like you and me, and as much as I prefer 3DL, I can't ask another artist to work with something they'd rather not just to make me happy.
There's been a number of examples lately where I've been reminded (not intentionally) that PAs are still artists.
Some time ago Stonemason announced that he was creating a male version for a female SciFi outfit, but after a very long time it hadn't appeared; I asked about it and he replied that it just wasn't working for him, he wasn't getting a product that he liked and had dropped work on it. As a customer, I was sad, but as another artist, I totally understand. Recently, someone asked him why he was dropping Poser support for his new products. Everyone (myself included) assumed that it was strictly a time-and-money matter for him, the time taken to do the extra work didn't equal the extra sales. That's what we'd expect from a manufacturer. In reality, Stonemase posted that he just didn't like or enjoy working in Poser anymore. I can certainly understand that, and the last thing I'd ask a fellow artist to do is anything that might suck the joy or fun out of being an artist.
I do mostly toon and comic book art, so hyper realism isn't something I need, but I can totally understand that other artists may prefer that. The fact that Publsihed Artists may prefer to do iRay-based artwork should be respected; it's not a matter of them not respecting 3DL artists, but that they have their goals and preferences, as artists, just as we do, and we have to respect that, even if it means we don't get as much 3DL product.
Ironically, it's DAZ who's respecting their preferences -- as artists --by not forcing them to create 3DL.
All that said, we have 3DL-to-iRay converters, and iRay shaders for 3DL-based products in the store, I think there's some opportunity for a PA to create the reverse, an iRay-to-3DL converter or 3DL shaders for popular iRay-only products. I'd buy 'em in a heartbeat.
-- Walt Sterdan
You make a good point, so don't get me wrong because I like using Iray, especially with HDRi backgrounds. But I think Uber Environment lights and spheres did a pretty good job in 3DL making realism atmosphere and I also like the detailed control of Liner points of lights, that can give me control over extra shadowing where needed, with less render times than Iray . Plus I always found you don't have to have realism to make your art believable.
An example of that would be for Manga & Anime art, where 3DL gives much better results for cartoon shaders than Iray.
Volume & Fog FX cams are seriously lacking in Iray. where in 3DL I have a pretty good arsenal of tools and cams that still work. so if I need fog or volume in a Iray render, It mostly likely will have to be done in post work,.
I also have been experimenting & trying to work with Iray in animation, first thing I can tell you is Iray is not animation user friendly, I would dare even guess unless you have access to a render farm or have years & years to spend rendering out just one 10 second; 300 keyframed scene in Iray. Then 3dl is still your best option for animation in daz studio for the average user.
In that way, to me 3DL is still very practical, So when I go to buy things here at daz I try to look for 3 criteria's with not much success lately..lol ,. 1) 3dl support to use in animation. 2) products are compatible with generation 4 or Genesis 2 figures.because thats what I am using. 3) the products I buy are not encrypted.
I am far from bullying so feel free to go back and reread the initial post again Male M3dia. If you r comment was not meant to discourage or bully a fellow PA for saying they would support multiple groups then why make it at all?