Hopes for G3M & Lee 7
xyer0
Posts: 6,333
I'm wondering if the G3M facial mesh is not dense enough to give us the kind of character range that we get from M4, because other than Michael 7, the G3 males are facially (and texturally) more like video game characters than art models. Even the powerful Raiya seems to be struggling to bring her usual distinctiveness to these smooth faces.
It appears to me that Daz has chosen to bridge their art hobbyist line towards Morph3D; thus, the only cynically feasible usage for males is as video game characters. This may be why Leo 7 and Gianni 7 look like low poly, baked-on vanilla-types (at least stereotypes would be clearly one generic personality or another). Of course, (from this same cynical perspective) females must retain more realism because they are primarily pin-up models (although there are fewer than five vendors that repeatedly break the V7 clone mold or the same face again syndrome).
However, if the males were of better quality, they would probably sell more. (I'm buying them just hoping someone with excellent Zbrush skills like StudioArtVartanian or JoeQuick will take up the mantle and attempt to craft us some men with gravitas and je ne sais quoi.) So, we get a self-defeating cycle where the sales numbers repeatedly confirm the false conclusion that Daz has drawn: Males cannot sell. And the storytelling, non-pin-up segment of the market purchases even less, as Daz sells even less, discouraging enterprising vendors.
Finally, in all these years, no one has made a men's business suit with conventional tie that looks realistic when posed. I own all the men's business suits and elements that are on the market, and there is nothing that is really convincing other than a straight standing pose (and some of them cannot even manage that). Either the jacket is pasted to the figure or it balloons in the most unnatural places. In fact, I am yet to see a fully knotted (and tightly collared) tie that is convincing, (although https://www.daz3d.com/h-c-business-suit-a-for-genesis-3-male-s does a better job with the tie and collar than any I have seen before). But this jacket doesn't have an open morph! Why? This same vendor solved the opened/closed problem in his previous http://www.daz3d.com/h-c-coat-outfit-a-for-genesis-3-male-s by making two separate geometries. That would have worked here.
Beowulf and Marquis did a decent job for their time. Eldritch Seeker raised the bar (as Luthbel always does) but completely and cleverly avoided the tie and jacket conundrum. IH Kang/kang1hyun has done an immeasurable service to the Daz habadashery, but we need more textures to increase the usability. Either the men's business suit should only be done as a dynamic fabric or male items do not make enough money for someone to really spend the time to solve the problem of a realistic conform. Being largely ignorant of the technical issues, I do not know which it is. Evidently, it is not a simple thing.
To digress, Mei Lin 7 Pro Bundle clothing items are ALL period fantasy pieces?
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Comments
I actually really like Michael 7 and Gianni. They don't don't look low quality to me. Genesis 2 had a lot of physical issues we don't have with this generation like the weird ultra-high eyebrows and overdeveloped pecs and thin narrow heads. I'm overall quite happy with this generation, but I would like to see more morphs available to shape the faces. Even with all the morphs and expansions, I could still use more to make faces unique.
It is clear to me that the store and pa's focus a lot of energy on female characters and their development. And this has been explained and defended often enough to not bear repeating by me.
It is good that other stores are making more men's content and characters. I hope we'll see more here in the future as well.
I like Michael 7 too, which is why I mentioned him as the exception. I was disappointed with Leo 7, and I was hoping Gianni 7 would give us a strongman counterpart to Michael, as the G2 version did. But his face morph lacked the distinction I was hoping for. I cited M4 and avoided mentioning G2M because of those very same idiosyncracies of the G2M morph that you mentioned. I'm scouring the other sites looking for a solution, too. Thanks for your input.
My understanding is that the G3M and G3F meshes only differ by a couple of hundred polygons in the breast area. Thus the facial part of the mesh of both figures have the same level of detail.
Of course how many PAs are creating different looking characters using G3M is a different question entirely. In my opinion the characters we have seen so far for G3M, whilst numerically far inferior to G3F characters, have been at least, if not more, distinctive. I remember in the months that followed V7's release, a large number of the characters that followed looked like her twin sisters to me.
Another point is that to state that male items universally do not sell is an over simplification. The M7 pro pack is consistently in the what's hot list, and quite often is ranked higher than the V7 pro pack (the only other item, consistently in the what's hot list). M7 pro at the very least is selling well, but you are probably correct with regard to male clothing, that likely sells a fair bit worse than female stuff.
Thank you, for your response, Havos; I always find your posts informative and helpful. Have a look at http://www.daz3d.com/genesis-2-legacies-for-genesis-3-male-heroes. When you compare these G3M morphs to their G2M counterparts, it is clear that they are more generic and, in some cases, look more like each other than their G2M would-be doppelgangers. This is also true of the G2F legacy packages. Quoting from the product pages: "The shapes have been lovingly recreated from Genesis 2, perfected in ZBrush to get the closest match to the original as possible. A less dense mesh in Genesis 3 means some detail gets lost in a simple morph transfer, as well as distortion in areas such as the mouth and eyes." I refer you to the image below to confirm that this is indeed the case (Genesis 2 is on the left). The lack of distinction of which I speak lies in the fact that the character's face morphs tend to lack the angles and crannies that give a masculine face distinction.
I have been quite pleased with the supplementary characters/textures bundled with the G3M Pro Bundles (Dash was the exception [too grey], and I did not purchase Guy 7); however, when I survey the other G3M non-creature/toon offerings, Ragnar for Gianni 7 alone breaks out of the G3M Base free-Poser generic face. Again, around the eyes and mouth is where the smoothness gives them a bad facelift vibe. Raiya's apparent solution for the lack of polygons around the eyes and the mouth is to pump up the volume on the noses of Kyle HD for Michael 7 and Henryk for Michael 7. This eye/mouth smoothness is fine for boys and women, but it does not translate to masculinity.
I was not saying that male items do not sell. I am merely repeating the opinions of at least two Daz forum moderators who in the past on these forums attempted to explain that market forces ultimately drive content creation. Thanks again for your input.
Thanks Maxamillion, I agree that the lower poly count of Genesis 3 does concerm me at times. In particularly the head polys, I am less bothered about the body. I am concerned how well shapes will be transferred from Genesis 2 using Generation X when it is finally released. My own transfer attempts using the Transfer Utility has met with mixed success, and often the eyes are messed up. I would have preferred the head poly count was similar to Genesis 2 (although lost polys inside the mouth are less of an issue), but it is too late for that now.
You are correct that men do need a higher poly count than women/boys due to their more ruggard features. Naturally Genesis 3 was designed as a female first of all, with males shoehorned in later. Aging morphs will be particularly challenging to get the wrinkles correct, and realistically will have to be HD to look good. Apart from 1 or 2 older characters over on Rendo, I do not think there are many Genesis 3 characters over 40 as of yet.
Actually the head and hand polygons are the only ones I really care about since most of my people are fully clothed. It's funny that the metaphor of higher adult male polygon necessity also holds true in life: It is hard to make a convincing man. I have met many old boys but very few men, of any stripe; most are emotional and intellectual children. It is angles and sharp points in life that carve the little girl out of the male, and if they scream and cry rather than deal with it, then children they remain.
I'm thinking that anyone who is looking to have a diverse (in age and ethnicity) population in Dazland will need to use all generations. Look at Phoenix1966's catalogue (here and at Renderosity). The reason there is so much diversity is because of (well, phenomenal textures, yes) but the detail of the morphs is made possible by the relatively astronomical polygon count of the M4/V4 head. If you've ever tried to wrestle a G2M face/head into a unique shape, you know how difficult it can be, even with every morph pack sold at Daz and Renderosity. I've included the CaymanStudios image for V4's mesh next to G3F for reference. Generation 4 is stacked!
Actually it's not that difficult to morph the shapes; you simply need the right tools and knowledge how to work with low poly meshes. Also as far as the morph detail on M4/V4.. actually none of them really used all those polygons. On those characters you named, take off all the textures then look at the morph. You'll quickly find that all you have is a square face with a nose morph as all that detail was actually in the texture, not the morph.
Thanks for the knowledge about the M4/V4 morphs. I stand corrected. When I look at your own products, such as Maxim HD, Axel International, Ryuu, Santo, Tyrese, or Nigel (all of which I own, BTW, and a fine job you did with them), compared with your newest G3M figure, it appears that you did not put the same level of distinctiveness into that mesh as you did with your extremely unique M4-6 characters. Are you of the opinion that the lower polygon count around the eye/mouth areas of G3M is not the main issue with G3M's facial genericness?
Lol, seriously? I think I should correct you there as well. There's actually more detail and movement in the later versions than the older ones, including the fact that the new head morphs are actually asymmetrical. Also add in the fact that I went off of actual anatomical references for the figures, the new figures are a vast impromvent over the other characters, and the facial bones allow for subtle emotion without messing up the face morphs that were pretty much nonexistent in previous generation. The M4-M6 custom morphs couldn't take expresions well because they woudl basically break the morph. So no, I don't think there's anything wrong with Genesis 3 as it improves on the expressions that weren't there in previous generations.
Also this is the morph I created for Jesse that I posted prevously. 1 subdivison, no HD. I think at this low level you can see the eye detail, mouth and cheek creases. And that's due to having the proper tools for sculpting which I didn't have when I did the M4 characters.
Keep in mind that this character was created from the base G3M, not based on M7 or any of the other characters and you'll quickly realize that far more work was put in creating this character than those that you previously mentioned.
I just checked M3D Jesse. Only the main morph was generic. You included extra head morphs (like you do on ALL your characters; I wish everyone did that; thank you) which are pretty unique and detailed, especially considering the current G3M population. So, like you said, "you simply need the right tools and knowledge how to work with low poly meshes." Maybe you can give some quick tutorials to interested vendors to help out G3M. Maybe Lee 7 will gets us headed in the right direction. Thanks M3D.
Generic really is a matter opinion and actually that was my favorite as i spent the most scuplting that. Take a moment to look at that and compare it to any other figure in terms of facial landmarks, head shape, cranial position and your observation is really, to be honest, erroneous.
I posted the previous comment before I saw this one. I can see what you're saying. As I said, being largely ignorant of the process, I defer to your judgment and experience. I'm sure it took a lot of work to get that result. Didn't it take even more work to get the other morphs for this character? Because those are the ones that really stand out to me.
I have frequently been told about the enhanced Genesis 3 expressions, and I have been excited to employ this with the females. I have not had the same results with the males, however. When I look at the expression/pose products that otherwise successful vendors have released for G3M, I see a lot of clunkers and goofiness. But I have only seen one collection (dragonfly3d at Renderosity) that employs this for what I'm looking for (regular guy / leading man emotions).
I think the expression set Jayne shoots? On renderosity is pretty good.
The thing to remember when comparing earlier generations (pre-genesis) is that they weren't designed with subdivision in mind. So while, yes, technically there are more vertices to move around, the amount you can move the individual vertices around without creating an unholy spiky mess is much smaller
I think this is more in reference to the transfer via the transfer utility itself. The transfer utility is super useful, but imperfect. This is giong to be a hideous description, but the tranfer utility basically works by pushing vertices along their normals (just in or out not side to side) the same amount the surface under neath them moves. This means it doesn't respect a lot of detail made by pinching verices together (for something like a stronger nasolabial fold as an example). Also unless the vertices lines up perfectly with the previous meshes (at which point you're just using the original figure) a lot of detail gets lost as the vertices of the new figure will only get pulled out as far as the surface they are nearest, whereas the highest and lowest points of the old mesh are the vertices
To illustrate that last point here's a crappy picture explaining it Red is the original "mesh" Blue the "mesh" we're transferring to. Bottom is the default state top is the "morph".
Basically transferred morphs are not really a fair comparison.
And yes I too think "generic looking" is in the eye of the beholder. I mean Gianni is the first daz male face I've really liked since David 5
I understand. Pardon my offence. That's your baby, and he was a long labour; so, you love him better. By "generic," I meant arcs rather than angles, curves rather than lines. Obviously you have spent late nights studying this (I had to look up "cranial position" to see if it meant more than "skull placement") and I'm just looking at it. Thanks for letting me know some details about how things work.
Thanks for the explanation and the image. I understand that a lot better now. I, too, think David 5 is a very interesting face. Gianni 7 was just a little smooth for me. And, yes, this is all opinion.
Hinkyhunks : John Crow for Michael 4 shows what a character can be if the face has personality. It's not certain if he's a taxi driver, rock drummer, undercover cop, drug fiend, or hitman. He could be any of these, or he could be the weatherman, plumber, bounty hunter, or accident lawyer, and his face would make it believable. If a female face has personality, it's a plus (Brooklyn HD, Vincenzina, Priya, LY Alexis, Pippa, Ginger for Bethany 7, FWSA Dayna, for example) because it's enough for her to be cute. But a man's face should tell us a story because looks are not enough in a man's case.
Agreed! I own all the available morph packs here at Daz (except for the ready-made faces), but I need more. There is much more for G3F!