Real VS Ideal?
vagabondallen
Posts: 24
I have this theory.
That it is better to create a human figure in an ideal form that can be morphed into a real form, rather than a real form that can be morphed into an ideal.
I've been saying this to my close 3D friends for some time. I'm now putting it out there to the larger community. I'm curious to know how people feel, and if anyone agrees with me.
(But please, PLEASE, let's not make it an "I'm right, you're wrong" debate, but a "I think I'm right because..." kind of thing. I'd love to keep this positive. I don't want to argue about the figures that have already been introduced. I want to test my theory about what people might want in a new figure. Thanks!)
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Comments
I tend to agree. It is always easier to get fat than get skinny....
The problem is that everyone has their own ideas on what "real" and "ideal" are, and they differ wildly. I live in a the 9th largest city in the US and and what is real to me is going to be fantasy to many others that only see these types of people on TV or in magazines..
Then there is the reason for the figure in the render, is it depicting everyday life, a fashion pinup, or a fantasy scene. I personally have no interest in rendering others ideas of "normal" people unless it's for a specific scenario, so I tend to go for my idea of "ideal" which isn't far from my real.
Personally I think DAZ does a great job of making the base figure at a good starting point for either/ or and with all the avaliable characters and morphs, users have the ability to create whatever they want. It's unfortunate that may users seem to rely more on plug and play characters instead of creating their own. I really don't see the need for a new figure, more new software features to enhance the look of figures we already have.
Well the Genesis characters are a great starting point but I want to use something like Skin Creator Pro and LIE Baker because it lets me avoid repeating the parts of the work that aren't making a character unique. When you are as slow as I am such tools are useful.
You haven't given us your own "I think I'm right because..." vagabondallen, to support your theory.
I'm not saying I'm right, but in this environment I think most of us tend to lean toward 'Ideal' than 'real'
I myself don't want anything too real in 3d, just believable. If I want something real, I'll grab a camera and start shooting.
Judging by the "real" people I see in Walmart, it would be virtually impossible to morph them into an "ideal" form. So your hypothesis holds water.
Well, the common answer to that one is simply not everyone is an artist or even have the time nor patience to make 100% use of everything Studio has to offer. I know I can't be bothered to take on many learning curves with modeling/textureing programs or fuss around with custom deformers and the such. Granted it's more expensive, but it's much easier for the average hobbiest to just buy presets use them as see fit.
Anyway, I have to agree with OP's view. This is actually why I think Genesis 2 is still very useful in this new generation, Genesis 1 and Genesis 2 are very versatile in both shaping and texturing because they all work with a semi-stylized Unimesh. Genesis 3, on the other hand, is simply too different in all departments, especially the base polygon rig. While that's great for hyper-realism, despite everything that we've "come to expect from Genesis" as the store always pitches, it does compromise the necessary
versatility needed for significantly stylized characters.
In fact, according to SickleYeild on her DeviantART, her Anime Character Builder didn't sell well, which is a huge shocker on quite a few levels. Not only was it a SY product, but a female anime one at that! Is Genesis 3's style really changing the game for niche marketing? If so, what could this say for characters like Aiko and Keiko?
Since the aim of any 3D figure is to have as big an acceptance as possible then I agree with the OP that it is best to start with an ideal shape even if the only reason is for marketing. First impressions of a base character can have quite a profound effect on people's opinion of it. Personally speaking, I find SM's new Pauline figure to be less than ideal, but natually like any other figure she could be morphed into something better. However it is that odd looking base that loads by default each time you use a figure, and this may have a subtle longer term effect on how much the figure is liked.
Are you creating your own mesh or are you using one of the base meshes. If you are creating your own, it is best to create a symmetical mesh. Clothing and prop creation is much easier when the base mesh is symmetrical (and has symmetrical rigging). Asymmetry can be created with morphs and magnets.
Photography: Some artists take a real human being and remove all the perceived flaws like wrinkles to achieve a flattering portrait.
Computer Graphics: Some artists try very hard to add details like wrinkles and asymmetric features to make the figures look less artificial.
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Some artists take a photograph and do not edit away all the personality.
Some artists use a computer graphic figure to create a stylish impression.
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Sometimes we do one thing and sometimes we do the other. It all depends on what we want to achieve.
This here... We buy "pre-made" stuff because if I were to create every object, texture it, rig it, etc. I'd spend years for one rendered image. I'll customize the characters I buy, but that's limited to the available morph dials. I did do one custom character with a morph brush, but after swamping a lot of hours into it I wasn't happy with the results. I'm not a sculptor, I decided to leave that to people that are much better at it than I am.
As to OP's question, I guess you need to say what's ideal vs. what's real. If you're going to say the current Genesis figures are ideal, then yes I think that's a good starting point.
I like to have a good range of options. I've felt pretty happy with the main head/body morphs for Genesis and Genesis 2, plus DieTrying's freebies. I have Zev0's Growing Up and Aging morphs, which captures a WIDE range of other options.
As for skin, Skin Builder and Skin Overlay covers a huge amount of ground, too.
I particularly like the power to make characters heavier, a little older, and stuff like that. I like imperfect characters...
Then I also like to make weird four armed winged frogmen, so it's nice to have options. ;)
I think you can take the ideal and make it more real with a little patience. One of the things I try to do it break up the perfect symmetry most models and character's faces have. Faces are not 100% symmetrical in real life. I'll angle one eye a little and change it's height and depth, give the nose a little skew, etc.
I'm up more for an ideal form because I do perfect and fantasy women, so, human figure with an ideal form is a MUST for me.
Tough one. I'm always drawn to the perfect because they are beautiful. But I prefer to take that and turn it into something more real (or as real as fantasy art can be lol). It is easier to take perfect and make it imperfect. And with some of the cool tools out there (sim tenero's randomize being at the top of the list) I can get a huge range of imperfect from perfect very quickly.
I find idealized/perfect women incredible dull and overdone, so I like to do everything else.
I also think it's less of a challenge, most of the time. Women that looked like a brown snake ate two honeydews and is choking on them? Meh.
Really distinct skin, with lots of fine details? THAT'S hard. Little details that communicate 'this is a real person,' postures that show weight and personality, rather than rubber spined pinup nonsense.
It must be believable, as you say; it can actually be real (or accurate) and not look right; the real world makes anything, no matter how incredible - in renders, however, believable is the most important.
For me that is about telling a story, and being consistent - much harder with a single image.
You can still have ideal proportioned people with very realistic skin textures and shaders. The real vs ideal OP is referring to is really the mesh.
Agree though, that "too perfect" porcelain skin with zero imperfections doesn't look right. Throws me off more than perfect symmetry.
Different strokes for different folks. There will never be too many beautiful ladies on the internet.