I'm currently toon shading in Daz Studio 4.8. I want to be able to have a toon-shaded curtain that is made from a see-through-like material, yet I don't want the outline to be see-through aswell. But using the PwToon and cell-shaders' built in opacity slider, makes the outline fade too... Therefor I thought that the "transparancy-problem" could not be solved by editing the toon- or cellshader.

How would that geoshell approach work?

 

Thanks a lot,

Me

If the curtain has a texture map, there is another way.  Use the texture map as a template.  You would paint a mid-grey covering the majority of the curtain (texture) and then create a thin line a couple of pixels wide in white outlining the texture.  Then fill in all the empty areas with black

Save that as curtainTrans and plug it into the Opacity Strength.  Leaving the thin white lines will make the edges fully opaque and give some strength to the edges generated by the shader.

I'm currently toon shading in Daz Studio 4.8. I want to be able to have a toon-shaded curtain that is made from a see-through-like material, yet I don't want the outline to be see-through aswell. But using the PwToon and cell-shaders' built in opacity slider, makes the outline fade too... Therefor I thought that the "transparancy-problem" could not be solved by editing the toon- or cellshader.

How would that geoshell approach work?

Thanks a lot,

Me

That's not how the transparency works in 3DL.  The opacity and final surface color are combined to give you the final 'look' when rendered, so anything that is done with the 'color' is going to end up affected by the final opacity.  Yes, you can apply a mid grey map to the Opacity channel...but I'm not sure if there will be any difference than using the slider.  Translucent effects aren't something easily doable in pwToon.  pwEffect, especially the ghost effects have that built in...

Added:

Yep, did several tests with various shaders and the results are the same wheter doing it with the slider or with a map.

Two 3DL renders, one color, one B&W, of a character inspired by new Pugmire RPG (D&D setting where uplifted animals inherit the mantle of civilization and humans are the long-gone 'old ones')

http://willbear.deviantart.com/art/Dobie-Guard-587866742

http://willbear.deviantart.com/art/Dobie-Guard-PWToon-587892145

Thanks for the replies!

The thing is, I'm applying the PWToon shaders to everything in the scene, and that comes with an outline. If I pull the opacity of that shader down, the outline also becomes more and more transparant... Not exactly what I wanted, so it got me thinking that maybe I should have the transparancy set in the "base" texture, so that when I apply the shader, the outline itself will stay 100% solid, as well as the effects that the shader provides.

Ok, here are a couple renders of a quick scene I whipped together this AM. In both cases, the images are composites of multiple renders using the cameras I have laying around. (One of them was a depth map, which gave the depth effect you may notice.)

 

Nice, how did you get the edges ?

I've been curious about Shades of Life for a while. It fills a gap that nothing else does. Iray has projection maps with decals, but they lack displacement (and Iray displacement is suboptimal anyway).

And, well, I am very pleased: http://willbear.deviantart.com/art/Slug-Caverns-ShadesofLife-587654198

 

The texture on the sort of rock in the foreground is really nice in that one. You reminded me of D&D this time :)

I played around with the shader Dracorn linked to - big thanks, it's great.

I'm calling this The Lost Bride.

This was an Iray render mulitplied with a line and edge layer created in that Artifaction shader.

So not really NPR as it's all done after rendering in PS. Oh and I used the HDR Toning adjustment in PS too, to bring out the colours and things.

I'm keen on the edges and chunkiness. I think I will try for the pwToon line render and throw that in too for a more inked look.

Ahh I see - I only downloaded the Texture Effects, I haven't had a look at the other ones yet.

What do you all think of this one ?

It's made up of three layers...

1. 3DL regular render for colours
2. 3DL pwToon Technical Drawing render for some edges and shadow
3. Text Effect pencil sketch of 1 good for details

Then I used multiply and a little transparency on the pwToon.

That one's not bad at all !!!

I'm still using 4.8 mainly because I've grown up in Africa and know from experience that it is usually the brave front-runner wildebeests that get eaten by the crocodiles in their annual migration. (Also if 4.9 did something horrible to my laptop that may require a reinstall of work related software - I will lose my job and my two cats and I will be living under a bridge)

Moving to 4.9 will also depend on the answers to my two concerns below:

Concern Topic One:
-------------------------------
My most valuable tools are "Skin Builder", "Save and Share for Skin Builder", "Lie-baker" and "Skin Overlay" (awesome products!)
DAZ_Steve said in the beginning of this thread:
"Obviously this does not address some of the other issues such as scripts and tools that work on un-encrypted content.  But those are solved in other ways.  We are working (and will continue to work) with developers who have this need, in order to show them how to do it with encrypted content."

a) Am I correct to assume that since I'm only using Genesis 1 and therefore older content, that these products will be functioning in 4.9 - or can there be other compatibility issues?
b) Will these products be supported in future releases?

c) Will a product like "Let it Snow" still work in 4.9?

Concern Topic Two:
-------------------------------
I use Daz for illustration purposes and my style is the opposite of Iray realism, in fact I spend a huge amount of time and effort just to make things look less realistic.
I exclusively use Genesis 1 and the 3delight rendering engine and are very dependent on the following products:
"AOA Subsurface Gummy & Plastic Shaders", "AOA Subsurface Toon Shaders", "pwToon", "Visual Style Shaders" and "Camera Magic: ToonyCam Pro"

In another thread DAZ_Kevin said:
http://www.daz3d.com/forums/discussion/69709/daz-studio-4-9-daz-original-figure-skin-material-optimization#latest
"Future Daz Original figures and characters (in or out of the release bundles) will release with both sets of materials for the time being, as people upgrade to the new Daz Studio 4.9."

I am VERY concerned about the "for the time being"
a) Is Daz planning to stop support for 3delight in the future? - although this question was asked in another forum thread, it was to my knowledge never directly answered, so I'll appreciate if one of the Daz-connected people (pun intended) here, can answer this with a simple yes or no.

b) Will these products be fully compatible with 4.9?
c) Will these products be supported in future releases?

One: all the products you list work on the content inside DS, they don't access the .duf file and therefore they are not affected by encryption. There are a few scripts which do read a directory of .duf files, I think, and those would be a different matter (some simply apply selected files to the scene, and would need a change in the way they select the files installed with Connect but would otherwise work; others may actually directly process the file contents and they would need more extensive changes to work with encrypted content).

Two: the "both" refers to Iray settings optimised for 4.8 and Iray settings optimised for 4.9+, nothing in that thread is about 3Delight settings.

I'm still using 4.8 mainly because I've grown up in Africa and know from experience that it is usually the brave front-runner wildebeests that get eaten by the crocodiles in their annual migration. (Also if 4.9 did something horrible to my laptop that may require a reinstall of work related software - I will lose my job and my two cats and I will be living under a bridge)

Moving to 4.9 will also depend on the answers to my two concerns below:

Concern Topic One:
-------------------------------
My most valuable tools are "Skin Builder", "Save and Share for Skin Builder", "Lie-baker" and "Skin Overlay" (awesome products!)
DAZ_Steve said in the beginning of this thread:
"Obviously this does not address some of the other issues such as scripts and tools that work on un-encrypted content.  But those are solved in other ways.  We are working (and will continue to work) with developers who have this need, in order to show them how to do it with encrypted content."

a) Am I correct to assume that since I'm only using Genesis 1 and therefore older content, that these products will be functioning in 4.9 - or can there be other compatibility issues?
b) Will these products be supported in future releases?

c) Will a product like "Let it Snow" still work in 4.9?

Concern Topic Two:
-------------------------------
I use Daz for illustration purposes and my style is the opposite of Iray realism, in fact I spend a huge amount of time and effort just to make things look less realistic.
I exclusively use Genesis 1 and the 3delight rendering engine and are very dependent on the following products:
"AOA Subsurface Gummy & Plastic Shaders", "AOA Subsurface Toon Shaders", "pwToon", "Visual Style Shaders" and "Camera Magic: ToonyCam Pro"

In another thread DAZ_Kevin said:
http://www.daz3d.com/forums/discussion/69709/daz-studio-4-9-daz-original-figure-skin-material-optimization#latest
"Future Daz Original figures and characters (in or out of the release bundles) will release with both sets of materials for the time being, as people upgrade to the new Daz Studio 4.9."

I am VERY concerned about the "for the time being"
a) Is Daz planning to stop support for 3delight in the future? - although this question was asked in another forum thread, it was to my knowledge never directly answered, so I'll appreciate if one of the Daz-connected people (pun intended) here, can answer this with a simple yes or no.

b) Will these products be fully compatible with 4.9?
c) Will these products be supported in future releases?

Ahh I see - I only downloaded the Texture Effects, I haven't had a look at the other ones yet.

What do you all think of this one ?

It's made up of three layers...

1. 3DL regular render for colours
2. 3DL pwToon Technical Drawing render for some edges and shadow
3. Text Effect pencil sketch of 1 good for details

Then I used multiply and a little transparency on the pwToon.

Your best yet - awesome! Now all you need to do is script the whole process so you can show us some animations ;)

Stonemason's work really is fantastic - I bought both the sets you've posted images of today (Streets of Old London & Enchanted Forest), and I use them all the time in my testing.

- Greg

Thanks Greg, but I think I will leave the scripting to you !

Yes I I first found the forest one when I was looking for some faery wings, it had been used in the promo. And I only recently bought the amazing London set after seeing that render you did a while back. He really does some nice work I agree, a very skilled person.

Ahh I see - I only downloaded the Texture Effects, I haven't had a look at the other ones yet.

What do you all think of this one ?

It's made up of three layers...

1. 3DL regular render for colours
2. 3DL pwToon Technical Drawing render for some edges and shadow
3. Text Effect pencil sketch of 1 good for details

Then I used multiply and a little transparency on the pwToon.

I think it looks pretty amazing!

Thanks ! I'm really starting to see the joy of NPR, so thanks to everyone for inspiring me.

And now for something totally not drawinglike at all...

http://willbear.deviantart.com/art/LifeinClouds-587541329

 

Will, that gave me a smile, reminds me of Douglas Adams for some reason. Why does he have soil on his head though ?? 

Ahh I see - I only downloaded the Texture Effects, I haven't had a look at the other ones yet.

What do you all think of this one ?

It's made up of three layers...

1. 3DL regular render for colours
2. 3DL pwToon Technical Drawing render for some edges and shadow
3. Text Effect pencil sketch of 1 good for details

Then I used multiply and a little transparency on the pwToon.

I think it looks pretty amazing!

Ahh I see - I only downloaded the Texture Effects, I haven't had a look at the other ones yet.

What do you all think of this one ?

It's made up of three layers...

1. 3DL regular render for colours
2. 3DL pwToon Technical Drawing render for some edges and shadow
3. Text Effect pencil sketch of 1 good for details

Then I used multiply and a little transparency on the pwToon.

Your best yet - awesome! Now all you need to do is script the whole process so you can show us some animations ;)

Stonemason's work really is fantastic - I bought both the sets you've posted images of today (Streets of Old London & Enchanted Forest), and I use them all the time in my testing.

- Greg

Ahh I see - I only downloaded the Texture Effects, I haven't had a look at the other ones yet.

What do you all think of this one ?

It's made up of three layers...

1. 3DL regular render for colours
2. 3DL pwToon Technical Drawing render for some edges and shadow
3. Text Effect pencil sketch of 1 good for details

Then I used multiply and a little transparency on the pwToon.

Studio is quite capable of producing the images for the pages of a book, but it can not produce a fully assembled book.  And as far as I know, neither can Poser.  The actual turning of those images produced into book pages is outside the scope of this kind of software.

One of the simplest means of turning the images produced, if no postwork is need, is simply insert each image into a Word or LibreOffice document.  Then set up your page options and export/print as PDF...instant book.

These shaders will do most, if not all of what you want...

http://www.daz3d.com/pwtoon

http://www.daz3d.com/skunkville-noir

http://www.daz3d.com/mephistopolis-noir-shaders

 

Thank you..... The pwtoon is exactly what I wanted.....    

Studio is quite capable of producing the images for the pages of a book, but it can not produce a fully assembled book.  And as far as I know, neither can Poser.  The actual turning of those images produced into book pages is outside the scope of this kind of software.

One of the simplest means of turning the images produced, if no postwork is need, is simply insert each image into a Word or LibreOffice document.  Then set up your page options and export/print as PDF...instant book.

These shaders will do most, if not all of what you want...

http://www.daz3d.com/pwtoon

http://www.daz3d.com/skunkville-noir

http://www.daz3d.com/mephistopolis-noir-shaders

Hrm. I might be better off sticking with PWToon for the majority of what I'm doing, but this looks cool.

The problem is the workflow -- two separate files and renders, plus the first pass took almost 30 minutes to render... for a single character and outfit!

I used PWEffect with Curvature (inverted) for both opacity and ambient color. It does look pretty cool, though, so I may use it for specific images as the mood strikes me.

Huh. Looking pretty good... when I get it finished I'll link.

But PWEffects with Opacity and Ambient modifiers all set to Curvature (Inverse) creates a very nice outline with a slightly shaded look. (Ideally I'd want the shading completely off, but it still looks pretty cool)

Combined with a color pass using PWToon, it might work out quite nicely.

... are there any easy ways to generate outlines?

PWToon and the Geoshell outline shader has a problem with surfaces perpendicular to the angle of view (turning all black).

The Scripted 3Delight Outline tool is great, for Normal output... except facial features and similar end up really blobby and too thick.

 

Suggestions?

My product? About 6+ months ago I was where you were, struggling to get reasonable outlines for a toon style. Like you, I tried many things, including:

• Standard Outline script
• ToonyCam pro (which had same shortcomings as Outline script)
• Visual style shaders
• Geometry shell outline shader
• DAZ Toon shader

I eventually took matters into my own hands, and after a long, hard-fought battle I now have:

• A render script that creates lines like the 'Outline' Render script is supposed to, actually supporting Color ID lines, and line color.
• A series of Shader cameras which render the scene in different ways, such as normals, fresnel, depth map, and so on.
• A script that automates a series of renders, switching between cameras, setting the parameters of each camera to match the "main" camera which you launched the script from (so there's no need to maintain camera angles on a whole mess of cameras).

So, my current workflow is: A) Merge my camera scene subset into the scene B) Launch the multi-camera renderer script. C) Come back 5 minutes later, composite the images on top of each other with GIMP, export. Done. Beautiful thing is that it's completely shader independent, so you can use your choice of surfaces and renderer for the main color output, and just use 3Delight for the line output.

One of the problems with the Outline render script as you have noted is that there's not a good feedback loop for getting good lines, since it's unclear how it determines where the lines "should" be. So the approach I decided on with Camera shaders lets you see the output as it renders, so you can see where the differences in color are and thus can more accurately predict where the lines will show up.

After I started seeing what 3Delight saw when deciding to draw lines, things became much clearer. (I ended up switching to a "Fresnel" camera for my detail lines, because I thought it gave more reasonable results than "normal" lines, which is what the standard Outline render script uses.)

I'm having a little more success with PWToon. One thing I realized is that I hadn't properly been expanding and setting linethickness across ALL materials (I was getting really uneven results).

And it's a huge scene with LOTS of stuff in it

I asked elsewhere, I'll ask here... are there any easy ways to generate outlines?

PWToon and the Geoshell outline shader has a problem with surfaces perpendicular to the angle of view (turning all black).

The Scripted 3Delight Outline tool is great, for Normal output... except facial features and similar end up really blobby and too thick.

Suggestions?