Wonderland said:

Has anyone tried combining Victoria 8.1 with G8 characters? What happens to the new teeth, mouth and eyes? Even if I got the character, I would never use the morph as is...

The teeth change is attached to the Mouth Realism morph so it works already. In the unlikely case someone did the same style detailing on the teeth on a G8 base morph, this would need to be dialed out.

For the eyes, the old UV's are all already on G8.1.

The Genesis 8.1 mesh is identical to the Genesis 8 mesh. 

Vert counts, shape, etc. Everything is the same.

The Mouth Realism shape has been changed, but as that was not baked into G8 shapes, this shouldn't affect the appearance on G8.1 except to give the character better teeth.

The Genesis 8.1 rigging is identical to the Genesis 8 rigging.

The *expressions* setup is what is different. Not the facial rig itself. 

plasma_ring said:

It seems like morph expressions like Unique Smiles work fine, but not expression dials saved from poses? Which makes sense.

Just for fun, here's a RY Tessa for Victoria 8 comparison. The new version uses Victoria 8.1's skin settings, eye materials, eyelashes, and eyebrows. 

Overall I'm really impressed, but I'm one of those people who goes bonkers in yonkers over the slightest improvement in expressions and functionality haha. 

Skin settings? But is the skin texture set on 8.1 the same as that on 8.0? I'm not sure what you mean by skin settings, but I'm not currently experimenting with 8.1. If I were, maybe that would explain it.

Has anyone tried combining Victoria 8.1 with G8 characters? What happens to the new teeth, mouth and eyes? Even if I got the character, I would never use the morph as is...

outrider42 said:

So another thing that is a quickly becoming an irritation; all the expressions for G8 that I can no longer use still show up in the list of dials for 8.1. A few G8 expressions still work, but most do not, and there is no easy way to sort through all of this mess. This is real oversight. It is as if Daz assumed everybody would be using the face rig feature to make expressions and never use dials. I am not a huge fan of that rig. I prefer to at least start with a basic expression and maybe tweak it in the rig if I use the rig at all. But that process is a lot more tedious for 8.1 with all of these dead expressions that no longer work.

Daz also is going to have a problem confusing both PAs and customers with where 8.1 products get listed. For example, where does Victoria 8.1 show up in my Daz??? Why she is listed right along side all my 8.0 characters, and all of the attachments are in the G8.0 folders as well. But some characters might show up in a new Genesis 8.1 folder that is separate from 8. This same issue will happen with poses, expressions, and clothing. Some PAs are going to place products under totally separate 8.1 folders while other continue to make products and list them under 8, even if that product is 8.1.  I can certainly understand expressions being set in a new 8.1 folder, since these don't work across the two, but the other products being in different locations on the whim of the PA is not so good.

We need to have a clear method to this, or things will get very confusing for us all very fast. Like I said before, Daz seems to specialize in confusion.

Another annoyance, going back the "features" for 8.1, as I described, is that Daz very easily could have made all of the attachments work out of the box on existing 8.0 models. Again, the geometry is the same here, all they really need to do is fix some IDs so that G8.0 is a compatible base. So the new tear and lash models can all work on 8.0 without any autofitting at all. But IMO they chose not to do that, because...marketing.

The marketing is my biggest issue with this release. The marketing needed to be much more clear about which feature was actually for what. There should have been 3 sections. One section starts off with the new improvements for Daz Studio itself, like the new shader. The next section, and this section is clearly divided from the others, would list the improvements specific to Genesis 8.1. Then the next section would list the improvements specific to Victoria 8.1, and again, this section would be clearly separated from the others.

That way, you do not confuse users into thinking vellus hair is part of Genesis 8.1. Or that Genesis 8.1 has new teeth. Or a lot of things shown on the page that are actually improvements for the new Victoria and have nothing to do with Genesis 8.1.

I don't know why that is so hard for marketing to grasp. There is confusion around almost every Daz event. If these very basic steps had been taken, there would have been less negativity. Oh I am sure there would still be negativity, you cannot please everyone and many of the issues we are discussing would still exist (like vellus hair requiring a bundle was going to set people off no matter what). But a lot of the negativity around the confusion would have been reduced. You guys openly invite this type of reaction with these constantly vague promotions you do. Then people like Richard have to try and calm the crowds and figure out what is going on.

So the first step is to be clear in your marketing. Obviously Michael 8.1 is coming up next, so you guys have a chance to rectify your marketing for him. If you have already designed you web page for his release...uh, scrap it and start over and break these features up like I described.

You could not have said this better. Thank you.

So another thing that is a quickly becoming an irritation; all the expressions for G8 that I can no longer use still show up in the list of dials for 8.1. A few G8 expressions still work, but most do not, and there is no easy way to sort through all of this mess. This is real oversight. It is as if Daz assumed everybody would be using the face rig feature to make expressions and never use dials. I am not a huge fan of that rig. I prefer to at least start with a basic expression and maybe tweak it in the rig if I use the rig at all. But that process is a lot more tedious for 8.1 with all of these dead expressions that no longer work.

Daz also is going to have a problem confusing both PAs and customers with where 8.1 products get listed. For example, where does Victoria 8.1 show up in my Daz??? Why she is listed right along side all my 8.0 characters, and all of the attachments are in the G8.0 folders as well. But some characters might show up in a new Genesis 8.1 folder that is separate from 8. This same issue will happen with poses, expressions, and clothing. Some PAs are going to place products under totally separate 8.1 folders while other continue to make products and list them under 8, even if that product is 8.1.  I can certainly understand expressions being set in a new 8.1 folder, since these don't work across the two, but the other products being in different locations on the whim of the PA is not so good.

We need to have a clear method to this, or things will get very confusing for us all very fast. Like I said before, Daz seems to specialize in confusion.

Another annoyance, going back the "features" for 8.1, as I described, is that Daz very easily could have made all of the attachments work out of the box on existing 8.0 models. Again, the geometry is the same here, all they really need to do is fix some IDs so that G8.0 is a compatible base. So the new tear and lash models can all work on 8.0 without any autofitting at all. But IMO they chose not to do that, because...marketing.

The marketing is my biggest issue with this release. The marketing needed to be much more clear about which feature was actually for what. There should have been 3 sections. One section starts off with the new improvements for Daz Studio itself, like the new shader. The next section, and this section is clearly divided from the others, would list the improvements specific to Genesis 8.1. Then the next section would list the improvements specific to Victoria 8.1, and again, this section would be clearly separated from the others.

That way, you do not confuse users into thinking vellus hair is part of Genesis 8.1. Or that Genesis 8.1 has new teeth. Or a lot of things shown on the page that are actually improvements for the new Victoria and have nothing to do with Genesis 8.1.

I don't know why that is so hard for marketing to grasp. There is confusion around almost every Daz event. If these very basic steps had been taken, there would have been less negativity. Oh I am sure there would still be negativity, you cannot please everyone and many of the issues we are discussing would still exist (like vellus hair requiring a bundle was going to set people off no matter what). But a lot of the negativity around the confusion would have been reduced. You guys openly invite this type of reaction with these constantly vague promotions you do. Then people like Richard have to try and calm the crowds and figure out what is going on.

So the first step is to be clear in your marketing. Obviously Michael 8.1 is coming up next, so you guys have a chance to rectify your marketing for him. If you have already designed you web page for his release...uh, scrap it and start over and break these features up like I described.

Kharma said:

@plasma_ring  How do you create an AO map?

The ones I used came with Victoria 8.1, but hers actually look different than the AO maps I've seen before. If you google "ambient occlusion map" you'll see that they generally just have the shadowed areas defined where creases or corners are, but the ones in her AO slots when I load her have way more detail spread out across the face.

If you use a texture painting program like Substance Painter it includes AO when you export your final maps, but I think you can also make them in Photoshop. 

Edit: Kicking this over to a dev who actually knows how it works. :V

gerster said:

plasma_ring said:

aldoraeno said:

gerster said:

The only difference seems to be, that the old uber skin has some highlights in the shadows, which the new pbr skin is missing.

Hard to tell if this is better or worse.
The only befenfit of the shader for old skin seems to be, that I can apply these micro displacement.
Or are there other benefits which I don't see. For me it looks like that just appling the new shader to old skins doesn't make the render result autmatically better.

This has been my general experience so far, too. The shader looks roughly the same, but makes the skin appear either extra-wet or extra-dry, depending on specular occlusion settings and the surrounding lighting.

I would be interested to see if it looks better with an occlusion map texture (the problem may just be that the specular occlusion is too "flat"), but since I haven't purchased Victoria 8.1, I don't have a texture that was intended for this purpose.

The occlusion seems to make a real difference. While messing around in Substance I was actually wishing that I could try using AO on Daz figures, because it seems like there are some neat things you can do with it. That said, I have no expertise in this area but the AO maps don't look very different from specular maps included with some previous G8 characters.

I've enabled occulsion in my comparsion, but it didn't improve the skin. From what kind of difference are you talking?

What is AO?

AO is ambient occlusion, and it basically lets you use an image map to define how much light reaches parts of your model that should be in shadow. So if you have a building set and use an AO map you can deepen shadows in the corners and where edges meet (this is where I'm most familiar with it). I think the idea was that Iray didn't need AO--please don't quote me--but when I compared a skin straight from the normal material preset to the same one with the shader and an AO map, the latter's facial details were clearer in dim light. 

(On a side note it is always kind of scary discussing this stuff from a layperson's perspective as I figure it out, so I would love more information from people who are better versed in it but if I get details wrong I promise I am not intentionally oversimplifying or anything. I'm just sharing what I find as I poke around.)

scheusal242 said:

Victoria 8.1 doesn't look like a woman, she looks much too young, looks like an eco-student character. Especially since Victoria should be the most beautiful character, this is rather insignificant. The notch on the tip of the nose is exaggerated and not really common in mankind. The notch looks awful on some renders. Let's see what follows.

It's all in the eye of the beholder... I remember having a hard time with V4 to get her looking anything else but Julia Roberts whom I still don't think being "pretty"

aldoraeno said:

gerster said:

The only difference seems to be, that the old uber skin has some highlights in the shadows, which the new pbr skin is missing.

Hard to tell if this is better or worse.
The only befenfit of the shader for old skin seems to be, that I can apply these micro displacement.
Or are there other benefits which I don't see. For me it looks like that just appling the new shader to old skins doesn't make the render result autmatically better.

This has been my general experience so far, too. The shader looks roughly the same, but makes the skin appear either extra-wet or extra-dry, depending on specular occlusion settings and the surrounding lighting.

I would be interested to see if it looks better with an occlusion map texture (the problem may just be that the specular occlusion is too "flat"), but since I haven't purchased Victoria 8.1, I don't have a texture that was intended for this purpose.

Maybe https://www.daz3d.com/skin-detail-resource-1 is for you?

plasma_ring said:

aldoraeno said:

gerster said:

The only difference seems to be, that the old uber skin has some highlights in the shadows, which the new pbr skin is missing.

Hard to tell if this is better or worse.
The only befenfit of the shader for old skin seems to be, that I can apply these micro displacement.
Or are there other benefits which I don't see. For me it looks like that just appling the new shader to old skins doesn't make the render result autmatically better.

This has been my general experience so far, too. The shader looks roughly the same, but makes the skin appear either extra-wet or extra-dry, depending on specular occlusion settings and the surrounding lighting.

I would be interested to see if it looks better with an occlusion map texture (the problem may just be that the specular occlusion is too "flat"), but since I haven't purchased Victoria 8.1, I don't have a texture that was intended for this purpose.

The occlusion seems to make a real difference. While messing around in Substance I was actually wishing that I could try using AO on Daz figures, because it seems like there are some neat things you can do with it. That said, I have no expertise in this area but the AO maps don't look very different from specular maps included with some previous G8 characters.

I've enabled occulsion in my comparsion, but it didn't improve the skin. From what kind of difference are you talking?

What is AO?

aldoraeno said:

gerster said:

The only difference seems to be, that the old uber skin has some highlights in the shadows, which the new pbr skin is missing.

Hard to tell if this is better or worse.
The only befenfit of the shader for old skin seems to be, that I can apply these micro displacement.
Or are there other benefits which I don't see. For me it looks like that just appling the new shader to old skins doesn't make the render result autmatically better.

This has been my general experience so far, too. The shader looks roughly the same, but makes the skin appear either extra-wet or extra-dry, depending on specular occlusion settings and the surrounding lighting.

I would be interested to see if it looks better with an occlusion map texture (the problem may just be that the specular occlusion is too "flat"), but since I haven't purchased Victoria 8.1, I don't have a texture that was intended for this purpose.

The occlusion seems to make a real difference. While messing around in Substance I was actually wishing that I could try using AO on Daz figures, because it seems like there are some neat things you can do with it. That said, I have no expertise in this area but the AO maps don't look very different from specular maps included with some previous G8 characters.

gerster said:

The only difference seems to be, that the old uber skin has some highlights in the shadows, which the new pbr skin is missing.

Hard to tell if this is better or worse.
The only befenfit of the shader for old skin seems to be, that I can apply these micro displacement.
Or are there other benefits which I don't see. For me it looks like that just appling the new shader to old skins doesn't make the render result autmatically better.

This has been my general experience so far, too. The shader looks roughly the same, but makes the skin appear either extra-wet or extra-dry, depending on specular occlusion settings and the surrounding lighting.

I would be interested to see if it looks better with an occlusion map texture (the problem may just be that the specular occlusion is too "flat"), but since I haven't purchased Victoria 8.1, I don't have a texture that was intended for this purpose.

This is my first new Victoria and i find the whole experience to be both scary and exciting...(but mostly exciting)

I posted these in the other thread as well, but I spent a lot of time messing with the shader last night and my converted figure's skin (RY Alison) looks very different with it on and set up. Unfortunately I'm at work so I can't do a side-by-side render, but the closest comparison I can think of is N.G.S. 2.  I've increased translucency since I rendered these out, which helped with detail. 

The differences didn't become super clear until I went into Victoria 8.1's texture folder and started plugging in her AO and detail weight maps. I also used the height detail map instead of the normal.

I'm not sure it's more realistic--it didn't take a figure intended to look like a video game character and make her look like a cosplayer, obviously--but it's definitely more consistent, which is a big help to me. 

MxD said:

Just picked up the Victoria 8.1 upgrade and started exploring. So far i am extremly unimpressed, the face controls seem to be a disaster in the making. As soon as you inadvertently touch the wong part of any control DAZ crashes instantly every time. It's just completly useless and utterly frustrating. For any one contemplating this UPGRADE??? i would suggest to wait a while and see if DAZ gets the controls working unless of course you enjoy constantly recreating what has allready been done or have the discipline to save after each and every adjustment you make.

THIS IS VERY DISAPPOINTING

works ok for me if that helps 

Victoria 8.1 doesn't look like a woman, she looks much too young, looks like an eco-student character. Especially since Victoria should be the most beautiful character, this is rather insignificant. The notch on the tip of the nose is exaggerated and not really common in mankind. The notch looks awful on some renders. Let's see what follows.

terry_duquette said:

Well, started playing in 4.15 and G8.1F....initial assessment, don't rush.  The base figure has just the Iray base map, some mouth and eye improvements with the tear addition. Lots of talk (28 pages as of today) in the Commons. The good thing was all the characters and morphs all showed up, and I was able to load G8F morphs with the morph loader pro. So below is a quick character build (crossgender morph, 75% Alistair, 15% Cartoony for Leemoon, and my HD Musculature morphs tweaking, layered with AME body and ASE) including my custom bicep morph on the G8F platform. First thing I noticed that the figure loads in SubD2 rather than 1. All the expressions show up, but a lot of them don't work. If you have D.Masters AFE, then you probably have most of the capability of the G8.1F facial enhancement rigging. Don't know if it's something in the figure or 4.15, but overall things seemed to move and react slower than before, will have to see once I go back to G8M work. There does seem to be a difference in the UV torso map rigging. Went to get a Filament render and add the beautiful skin shell, the torso faded out, so that product is useless on 8.1 for now. I could load any skin shader from the library, so for good looking Filament/PBR support looks like new product or updates required, thus Victoria 8.1. Also was led to believe from the promo descriptions that Vellus hair was defaulted, nope, guess you need V 8.1 for that feature also. Will continue to play, but again, my opinion, don't rush. TD

Just noticed on the Filament renders I should have added the hair cap, I was so focused on trying to fix the torso or find some work around! TD

Thanks for all of this information, Terry.

patrickp78 said:

jbowler said:

Angelicpower said: Where would I find Genesis 8.1 Female base?

Smart Content, deselect "Filter by Content", Select All, search for 8.1; there are only a few things there.  It's "Genesis 8.1 Basic Female".ww

Hi, I found Genesis 8.1 Female with the last upgrade. What about Genesis 8.1 Male?

See the 8.1 thread: https://www.daz3d.com/forums/discussion/466416/genesis-8-1-victoria-8-1/#latest ; It's very active :-)  8.1 male isn't here yet; I guess there will probably be a 5.15 essentials update at some point.

Just picked up the Victoria 8.1 upgrade and started exploring. So far i am extremly unimpressed, the face controls seem to be a disaster in the making. As soon as you inadvertently touch the wong part of any control DAZ crashes instantly every time. It's just completly useless and utterly frustrating. For any one contemplating this UPGRADE??? i would suggest to wait a while and see if DAZ gets the controls working unless of course you enjoy constantly recreating what has allready been done or have the discipline to save after each and every adjustment you make.

THIS IS VERY DISAPPOINTING

Richard Haseltine said:

Default resources is things like the sahders, without it you won't be able to do much. It has been updated to add the new PBR Skin shader for the Genesis 8.1 updates (used by Victoria 8.1, though it will no doubt be used by other things and is available once installed for experimentation).

OK thank you Richard.