lishonmartin97 said:

FrankTheTank said:

Well, I can't say I notice any difference between 4.23 and 4.24 If anything there seems to be a little bit laggier viewport in 4.24 so I reverted to 4.23. Also the Filament issue with emissives is still present in 4.24. I mentioned it here for reference. I hope that will get fixed before 4.x is abandoned and all effort is in DS 2025. 

How did you revert to daz 4.23?

As long as you kept back-ups of the isntallers just pop them in DIM's dopwnloads folder in place of the current versions, start DIM in offline mode, and install them.

FrankTheTank said:

Well, I can't say I notice any difference between 4.23 and 4.24 If anything there seems to be a little bit laggier viewport in 4.24 so I reverted to 4.23. Also the Filament issue with emissives is still present in 4.24. I mentioned it here for reference. I hope that will get fixed before 4.x is abandoned and all effort is in DS 2025. 

How did you revert to daz 4.23?

RexRed said:

The latest Nvidia Studio driver just fixed everything for me in V2025. The viewport is now in realtime, I think faster than it was in 4.24

I uploaded the latest Nvidia driver today and suddenly it worked. I also tweaked a setting in Windows. If anyone is still having issues, I will post the Windows tweak becasue I am not really sure which thing fixed it.

Now, when I orbit the viewport around all of the shaders uniformly display together in real time. With a figure in the scene and the high resolution Viking camp on a 5090!

In my mind the alpha, is now a beta 

*One issue still lingering, when I move objects around in the scene (in Iray), they move around well enough but they do not draw as they move. When I orbit the scene it draws in real time but the moving objects do not draw as they move in realtime.

*Another thing, when you selct an object, i.e. a figure, and click view frame, it does not frame very well. It zeros in a bit far from the target object sometimes.

Nvidia update didnt change anything for me. Viewport roaming is a little bit better (in not too complex scenes) since the latest Alpha update. Otherwise, as soon as you try to move something in the scene or touch sliders, its down to 5fps. My go to Test Scene is FN Lakeside House. This is barely usable in Alpha (even in Filament/TextureShaded) while it runs smooth in 4.24.

comradenikola92 said:

DoctorJellybean said:

To those who are experiencing viewport lag issues, maybe you could try the following as an experiment:

Make the property based panes that update a lot (e.g., Parameters) not visible, and see how that impacts performance. You don't have to close the pane, just cause another one in the same property group to be raised ("on top").

The state updating is not what is hammering down the viewport, it is the poor implementation of the raster-based viewports which oversaturate the ancient OpenGL API with draw calls in complex scenes, which was one of the big reasons for the push with Mantle->glNext->Vulkan and DX11->DX12 and Metal on Apple, among other things. OGL and DX11 simply never had proper support for multithreading, dispatching of draw calls from different threads is heavily synchronized and you end up being bottlenecked on a single core of your 16-core CPU not being able to keep up with the hundreds of thousands to millions of individual draw calls. I have the fastest consumer processor (9950X3D) and the fastest consumer GPUs (5090s) and it's still 5-9 FPS without hiding everything (ie performing "view frustum culling" myself).

There are techniques that can help here, but using OGL from the getgo for this rewrite was a bad call, plain and simple. Right now I don't see any degree of culling being performed or any of the basic rendering optimization techniques, when I get the time, I'll actually profile the filament renderer with graphics debugging tools and see what is hammering it exactly.

Have you not seen the stuff about RHIs in the change log? I think this may be somewhat relevant https://www.qt.io/blog/graphics-in-qt-6.0-qrhi-qt-quick-qt-quick-3d

DoctorJellybean said:

To those who are experiencing viewport lag issues, maybe you could try the following as an experiment:

Make the property based panes that update a lot (e.g., Parameters) not visible, and see how that impacts performance. You don't have to close the pane, just cause another one in the same property group to be raised ("on top").

The state updating is not what is hammering down the viewport, it is the poor implementation of the raster-based viewports which oversaturate the ancient OpenGL API with draw calls in complex scenes, which was one of the big reasons for the push with Mantle->glNext->Vulkan and DX11->DX12 and Metal on Apple, among other things. OGL and DX11 simply never had proper support for multithreading, dispatching of draw calls from different threads is heavily synchronized and you end up being bottlenecked on a single core of your 16-core CPU not being able to keep up with the hundreds of thousands to millions of individual draw calls. I have the fastest consumer processor (9950X3D) and the fastest consumer GPUs (5090s) and it's still 5-9 FPS without hiding everything (ie performing "view frustum culling" myself).

There are techniques that can help here, but using OGL from the getgo for this rewrite was a bad call, plain and simple. Right now I don't see any degree of culling being performed or any of the basic rendering optimization techniques, when I get the time, I'll actually profile the filament renderer with graphics debugging tools and see what is hammering it exactly.

echristopherclark said:

Oh, I didn't feel ignored. More like I worried that I'd stopped all other conversation with my dumb questions. I was embarrassed.

Anyway, thank you for the help! The rim spotlight luminance was too high to begin with and that solved most of it. I'll try the surface suggestions you mentioned next!

I'd vote for turning down the Bloom value in Filament Draw Options before messing with the individual surface settings. Changing Bloom is quick and easy and has a big impact.

Your questions aren't dumb at all. It may just be that nobody knew an answer to the first one, so nobody responded. FilaToon fever has given way to DS 2025 Alpha fever. There is always a new thing to distract from the previous new thing. Forum threads tend to go stale after awhile. Then there is the issue of all the forum Gateway Errors, that prevent people from reading or posting in the fourm. That also kills activity. Don't be afraid to revive a stale thread with a new relevent question.

Iray, Filament, and the two solid/bounding box mods are not supported as they don't work in the same way.

Sorry, if I'm late to the party here, but I am really impressed with the filament real time rendering since the 2025 alpha.
Have there been actual improvements lately, or am I making this up?

echristopherclark said:

Wow, I am a thread-killer I guess. But at the risk of resurrecting something just for it to die again, I'm coming across another weird problem that I'm hoping someone might be able to help me solve.

When using a spotlight as a rim light, I'm getting this weird effect where the eyes and the insides of characters mouths are getting so bright they appear to glow. Anyone know of any fixes for that?

@echristopherclark Im sorry you've felt ignored here! What is the luminance value of your rim spotlight? It may be unnecessarily too high There are some things you can do in the surfaces pane to mitigate the glow problem, though. Several objects have a Shadow Threshold of -1. Changing that to 0 will help immensely. Start with these:

Base Anime character, Mouth Cavity surface, change Shadow Threshold -1 to 0
Genesis 9 Toon Floating Iris, all surfaces, change Shadow Threshold -1 to 0
Genesis 9 Toon Mouth,  Teeth surface, change Shadow Threshold -1 to 0
Genesis 9 Toon Eye Socket, Eye Socket surface, change Shadow Threshold -1 to 0

You can also lower Bloom Strength in the Filament Draw Options node. That alone my be enough to resolve your glow, without resorting to surface changes.

Note also that the Genesis 9 Toon Floating Iris object's Highlight Lower and Highlight Upper surfaces have emission turned on. That will glow when Bloom is on. You can turn off the emission by setting the Emission Color to black, or just reduce its Luminance rather than turing it all the way off. It just depends on the look you want and the strength of your Bloom settings.

I attached an example scene with Base Anime Masculine surfaces adjusted.

I would like the HDRI to show in a redrawn, low-res way in texture shaded view so I don't need to use filament to adjust it. 

As someone with Windows 10 & 11 and Apple OS computers, I have DAZ 2025/6 downloaded to test and I am grateful to see Filament available on both. Yes, I do use scripts and plug-ins and yes I am cramped, but I knew that going in. DAZ didn't hide that. Even though I do not have a computer science degree I read the Evergreen thread first and then made the decision to go ahead. I still have my Beta versions of 4.23.0.3 installed on all my machines. I have lost nothing. It I have to, I could develop a work method to start a file in one version of D|S and then open it in the other version depending on what I want to do. 

If you look at the Commercial threads there are PAs mentioning that they are working on their scripts even now, taking the chance that their work will not be too wasted as the Alpha progresses. Unfortunately, some of the scripts that are or were available in the store will not able to be updated as the PAs are deceased. So maintaining the older versions of D|S will be wise. 

comradenikola92 said:

squall6leonhart said:

Heureka. Seems like the Viewport Lag is gone with the new update. Good work @Daz3D

No, it isn't. Just installed it. It's only reduced in the empty viewport. Load in any scene with any real complexity and it's down to sub 5 FPS again, both Filament and Texture Shaded. Tested on 7950X3D, 192 GB of RAM and 2x4090s and 9950X3D, 192 GB of RAM and 2x5090s rigs. I have to keep the old rig because 4.24 is unusable with 5090s, which was a kick in the gut.

Removing the second GPU in either rig makes no difference.

EDIT: Loaded in a relatively big one now, 2% GPU utilization at 48.3 W (0.800 V idle voltag) 5090, framerate is 5-9. CPU utilization is averaging 5% system wide. Same scene runs at 45 FPS while uilizing 10% of a single GPU in 4.24 (Filament) and 13 FPS in Texture Shaded mode utilizing 2% of the GPU.

Yeah you are right. Its still there. But an particualr Scene I had troubles with before now works better. But then tested it on FN Lakeside House and the lag is quite heavy here (Runs smooth in 4.24). Too bad. Sorry for getting up hopes.

squall6leonhart said:

Heureka. Seems like the Viewport Lag is gone with the new update. Good work @Daz3D

No, it isn't. Just installed it. It's only reduced in the empty viewport. Load in any scene with any real complexity and it's down to sub 5 FPS again, both Filament and Texture Shaded. Tested on 7950X3D, 192 GB of RAM and 2x4090s and 9950X3D, 192 GB of RAM and 2x5090s rigs. I have to keep the old rig because 4.24 is unusable with 5090s, which was a kick in the gut.

Removing the second GPU in either rig makes no difference.

EDIT: Loaded in a relatively big one now, 2% GPU utilization at 48.3 W (0.800 V idle voltag) 5090, framerate is 5-9. CPU utilization is averaging 5% system wide. Same scene runs at 45 FPS while uilizing 10% of a single GPU in 4.24 (Filament) and 13 FPS in Texture Shaded mode utilizing 2% of the GPU.

Loading in a single character halves the framerate from 200 to 100. And it continues to halve with each bit of complexity added (clothes, hair etc), until the system grinds to 5-9 FPS again.

memcneil70 said:

Another great use for Filament is the setting up of a scene, preparing to test a character or product and the switching to Iray for the final render. Jay Versluis has a great tutorial on this. I loved it when I had only my Windows computers and felt cramped up when I got my MacBook Pro and then the Mac Mini M4 Pro. But with DS6, I have it back. It is not just for toons.

Indeed, as it "looks better" than the basic viewport. 

Hi, I just thought I'd resurrect this old thread because it's the most recent one I could find that discusses this issue (in the most detail I've seen, and corroborating my own experience). This occasional disappearance of the character (with geographs in use) is something I've experienced consistently as a filament user. I do all my scene setup and posing in filament view. The disappearing character bug will happen after maybe a few hours of working in Daz and as previously mentioned, it does no harm as such, but requires the scene to be saved, Daz to be closed and opened again, then work can resume on the scene with the character visible again.

I run a 3 monitor 1080p setup via a GeForce RTX 3060 with the Daz main screen maximised on the centre screen and ancillary menus to the right and left on the two flanking monitors.

It would be less of an irritation if the Daz devs could crack the issue of how long it takes to flush the scene and close when exiting. It can still take my scenes a good few minutes to do so... It would be a great area for them to focus on rather than endlessly updating the Genesis series and making each one slower to work with and render (I'm happily sticking with G8 - 8.1 for the foreseeable future)... ;)

And I really applaud progress in other areas of speed-up, such as the speed with which a character can now have its pose zeroed, and poses saved and loaded, which are all way faster with recent updates.

Another great use for Filament is the setting up of a scene, preparing to test a character or product and the switching to Iray for the final render. Jay Versluis has a great tutorial on this. I loved it when I had only my Windows computers and felt cramped up when I got my MacBook Pro and then the Mac Mini M4 Pro. But with DS6, I have it back. It is not just for toons.

inquire said:

News to me. Thank you. I just looked at the examples for the ads and the products in the DAZ Shop. I didn't think that filament looked as good as the Nvidia vendors look.

I think we did discuss this back in the old thread, and I did suggest checking the store out to see what Filament products there are and how they look when used properly.

As Richard said, Filament isn't designed to be a high-end rendering engine but one that's lightweight enough to be used for mobile and games and such. It's not as photorealistic as NVIDIA, it's slightly stylized. That said, it's capable of some excellent renders (as shown by some of the store products), it's extremely fast and lightweight, and as you're aware now has Filatoon; all this, for the type of work I do, makes it an excellent replacement for most of what 3Delight and OpenGL used to provide.  

The ever-helpful Leana provided links to threads for Trek-modeller extrordinaire rduda on Filatoon, both excellent theads:
https://www.daz3d.com/forums/discussion/comment/9193591/#Comment_9193591

And Mec4d supplies some excellent information on shaders for Filament here:
https://www.daz3d.com/forums/discussion/445567/filament-tutorials-shaders-lights/p1

inquire said:

News to me. Thank you. I just looked at the examples for the ads and the products in the DAZ Shop. I didn't think that filament looked as good as the Nvidia vendors look.

Filament isn'ty intended as a full render engine, using Metal doesn't automatically change that.

News to me. Thank you. I just looked at the examples for the ads and the products in the DAZ Shop. I didn't think that filament looked as good as the Nvidia vendors look.

inquire said:

Well, I really feel that we should have more updates from DAZ3D. They should tell us Whether or not, they are making progress and developing an Apple Silicon version of DS.

Also, at WWDC, There is an indication that Apple will help companies incorporate Apple Intelligence into their apps. It would be great if DAZ Made an Apple version of DS And included Apple Intelligence in it. It would be super if DAZ Included Apple Metal In it. Someone could write a translation version from Nvidia shaders to metal shaders. I would really like to experiment with that.
I think filament is a poor alternative to the nVidia Rendering.

Filament in DS 6 / 2025 is based on Metal on macOS.
The Viewport is also based on Metal on macOS.
 
Check profiler under Activity Monitor:
/System/Library/Extensions/AppleMetalOpenGLRenderer.bundle/Contents/MacOS/AppleMetalOpenGLRenderer
/private/var/db/oah/ea72064422e54f697b7431461ee92103a0179fc81d9631db29c3a82d0a133dba/ec3eef5a240e192d228a24d5e25638b901834cf1350d9d66c250b493a94b4b6d/AppleMetalOpenGLRenderer.aot
/System/Library/Extensions/AGXMetalG13X.bundle/Contents/Resources/ds.g13s
/System/Library/Extensions/AGXMetalG13X.bundle/Contents/MacOS/AGXMetalG13X
/System/Library/Extensions/AppleMetalOpenGLRenderer.bundle/Contents/Resources/default.metallib
/System/Library/Extensions/AppleMetalOpenGLRenderer.bundle/Contents/Resources/PixelConverter.metallib