Why does DAZ Studio customers like Conforming Cloths better then Dynamic Cloths ?

RorrKonnRorrKonn Posts: 402
edited December 1969 in The Commons

Why does DAZ Studio customers like Conforming Cloths better then Dynamic Cloths ?

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Comments

  • RenpatsuRenpatsu Posts: 828
    edited April 2014

    They don't necessarily like conforming better than dynamic, just it is not trivial to create DAZ dynamic clothing (due to the OptiTex software, which costs a lot) and due to that you need the help of OptiTex essentially (or some clothing designer working with them, like Martin) to get the clothing into DAZ Studio. So a DAZ PA cannot make DAZ dynamics on her/his own at the moment.

    Personally I love dynamics and I am looking forward to a more generic dynamic solution, which is currently being worked on by a couple PAs.

    Edit: To clarify, the OptiTex software is a software for clothing designers and thus aimed at a completely different industry and the costs are very, very high (think 10k) for such a relatively low-budget niche like DAZ clothing items.

    Post edited by Renpatsu on
  • MilosGulanMilosGulan Posts: 1,715
    edited December 1969

    I have not used dynamic clothes yet, i will have to try :)

  • FSMCDesignsFSMCDesigns Posts: 8,823
    edited December 1969

    RorrKonn said:
    Why does DAZ Studio customers like Conforming Cloths better then Dynamic Cloths ?

    Because DAZ customers don't have as much of a choice as poser users when it comes to dynamics in DS. DS is limited to what a select few can produce, unlike poser in which nearly any mesh object can be dynamic.

  • RAMWolffRAMWolff Posts: 9,477
    edited December 1969

    Something that was promised a couple of years back and never came about. Alex and Ken are working on a dynamics engine for this purpose as well as making LAMH more dynamic.... Can't wait!

  • kyoto kidkyoto kid Posts: 32,955
    edited April 2014

    ...also the cloth dynamic controls that are built in with 4.6 are fairly limited. The full dynamic plugin for Daz Dynamics costs extra (about 50$) whereas the ability is already built into Poser (and as others mention) is far more universal.

    I have yet to get any good results with the basic tools so I pretty much have purchased very little of the dynamic content available in the Daz store.

    Post edited by kyoto kid on
  • icprncssicprncss Posts: 3,647
    edited December 1969

    As stated by others it isn't a fact that DS customers prefer one to the other, they currently have no choice in the matter. DAZ handed over all aspects of dynamic cloth to Optitex after the merger with Gizmoz. Outside of the free player that was added during the DS2 release cycle and the cloth control plugin, little progress has been made. New dynamic clothing is released periodically both in the store and for free on the web site.

    The Optitex system is a commercial proprietary system. Acquiring a license is far from cheap. Don't forget, until DAZ made the decision to give the Pro version of DS4 away for free, anyone wishing to rig in DS had to purchase the figure set up tools for DS3. When DS4 was first released, only the standard version was free. If you wanted the Content Creation Tools, you either had to buy them separately or upgrade to the Pro version.

  • FixmypcmikeFixmypcmike Posts: 17,698
    edited December 1969

    Is dynamic clothing popular among Poser users? I may be mistaken, but it seems to me that Poser users usually use conforming clothing also.

  • SickleYieldSickleYield Posts: 7,358
    edited December 1969

    Is dynamic clothing popular among Poser users? I may be mistaken, but it seems to me that Poser users usually use conforming clothing also.

    The Poser users I know seem to use conformers more, too.

    Dynamic clothing in both programs has some limitations on what sort of details you can build into it without screwing the simulation, usually (unless that's changed meaningfully while I wasn't paying attention). It also requires you to set up your scene with the animation timeline in mind, which can be cumbersome. And then, of course, there's adding cloth sim time to render time, which is non-trivial on most systems if you want it to look really nice.

    I'm not saying it's never worth it, or even that it's not worth it often; just that it takes additional effort and time that one may or may not want to commit to it. And if you're making a scene with tight clothing or armor anyway (lingerie, bikini armors, sf bodysuits), which appears to be about 70% of the hobby renders I've ever seen, dynamics aren't especially needful to begin with.

  • KhoryKhory Posts: 3,847
    edited December 1969

    Is dynamic clothing popular among Poser users? I may be mistaken, but it seems to me that Poser users usually use conforming clothing also.

    Not so much I don't think. Honestly if it were that popular you would see it sold at least as often as conforming clothes and that is just not the case.

  • Serene NightSerene Night Posts: 15,077
    edited December 1969

    I've tried a few dynamic products and didn't care for them. The clothing didn't look any more real to me than the conforming stuff, and was quite a pain to pose.

  • WillowRavenWillowRaven Posts: 2,959
    edited December 1969

    I for one use dynamics 95% of the time. Because of the lack of variety, I often piece-parting outfits and getting creative with trans maps, lol.

  • RorrKonnRorrKonn Posts: 402
    edited December 1969

    Thanks for the reply's .I have no idea what Optitex , Gizmoz and all is.
    But I get not anyone can make dynamic cloths for DAZ.

    Some out of the box conforming cloths ya can use dynamic in C4D,Blender,Poser etc etc.
    Some conforming cloths depending on how there modeled ya might need to modify them to make them dynamic.

    It would be killer if DAZ Studio had killer dynamics cloths & hair Stock or Plugs for all to use.

    I don't know the % of Dynamic cloths Poser users there are.
    But it seems most use conforming.

    I do know conforming cloths is a DAZ Poser thing.
    DAZ Poser are the only ones I've ever seen use conforming cloths dresses.

  • DaWaterRatDaWaterRat Posts: 2,876
    edited December 1969

    Unless I really need the draping given by dynamic items, such as for a sheet, even if I have a dynamic choice I usually go with the Conforming. I'm always tweaking poses through several camera angle shifts and three or four test renders before I'm happy, and having to pause and run a cloth sim that could take anything from five to thirty minutes with every tweak is time I simply don't want to take, especially as in DS I also have to take pains to keep the camera out of an animated drape.

    Conforming also gives me more options for movement in cloaks and skirts that mere wind effects won't give, and if I need to run a few extra frames to settle out breaks/wrinkles, any multi-directional movement is lost.

  • ServantServant Posts: 717
    edited December 1969

    I have to go with the consensus that a) there's simply more conforming clothing available and b) it's relatively painless to use in DS. I've tried Dynamics in DS using the free optitex stuff and it's just too much trouble with more trial and error. While draping clothes is nice, I have not found a real need for it in my personal and professional projects to actually invest the money or time for it. I have an easier time of making conforming clothes look like they are draping through tweaks and morphing (whether in DS or through Hexagon) or even using multiple copies of the same clothing in a scene.

  • Herald of FireHerald of Fire Posts: 3,489
    edited December 1969

    For me, it's more the issue of practicality. Conforming clothing is so much EASIER to work with than dynamic clothing, since it doesn't require drapes and animations to make it sit properly on the figure. Most conforming clothing nowadays comes with morphs to make it look more free-flowing, which can imitate dynamic clothing rather well, and close-fitting clothing is rarely discernible between the two.

    Daz's DForm tools, combined with morphs can help to make any non-dynamic clothing look more free-flowing and since it follows the figure without needing me to calculate an animation I can use it for any scene rather than needing to micro-manage every item.

    I do use dynamics, of course. Whenever the tools at my disposal prove inadequate I will export the whole shebang to Poser and calculate a drape there. I can then export that drape and import it as a morph target in Daz Studio. The benefit of this is that it's customised for the scene, so it doesn't require a drape in Daz Studio and extends beyond merely wearing the clothes.

  • KhoryKhory Posts: 3,847
    edited December 1969

    I think it is at least partly what your use to as to which you think is a bigger pain. I use dynamics more and unless it is a fitted outfit I tend to spend much more time fussing with conforming clothing than I do using dynamics.

  • Herald of FireHerald of Fire Posts: 3,489
    edited December 1969

    It can vary widely. The issue with dynamic clothing is that even for a static figure you need a pre-animation to make the drape sit properly on the figure since dynamics don't follow the figure by default. With Poser you can set a starting point for the drape simply by fitting it to the figure and posing them. Any subtleties such as twisting can be made to work very easily and with minimal fuss. You also need time to calculate the drape frames.

    Another issue is that the default dynamics plugin is horrible. I don't mean just poor, I mean actually horrible. Dynamics causes far too many crashes with Daz Studio, especially when saving figures which have had drapes applied. The drapes themselves, as you have no control over them, often have serious poke-through issues where the clothing intersects with the skin underneath. For that reason alone, I found myself having to do more work to repair these issues than I would have by using conforming clothes.

    No doubt the paid version of the plugin puts these issues to pasture, but as a starting point for dynamic clothing in Daz Studio, the free plugin doesn't inspire confidence. It's hard to justify buying the full plugin when you're not even certain those issues are fixed.

  • Ghosty12Ghosty12 Posts: 1,128
    edited April 2014

    Is dynamic clothing popular among Poser users? I may be mistaken, but it seems to me that Poser users usually use conforming clothing also.

    There is quite a lot of dynamic clothing and a fair bit of dynamic for Poser.. One of the main reasons is one you get a top notch dynamic system in Poser and well because you are not having to shell out a ton of cash for a 3rd party program just to create dynamic clothing.. Just look at RuntimeDNA or Renderosity they have a lot of it especially free items.. And as for pay dynamic content the one I know the most is gear by SynfulMindz..

    It can vary widely. The issue with dynamic clothing is that even for a static figure you need a pre-animation to make the drape sit properly on the figure since dynamics don't follow the figure by default. With Poser you can set a starting point for the drape simply by fitting it to the figure and posing them. Any subtleties such as twisting can be made to work very easily and with minimal fuss. You also need time to calculate the drape frames.

    Another issue is that the default dynamics plugin is horrible. I don't mean just poor, I mean actually horrible. Dynamics causes far too many crashes with Daz Studio, especially when saving figures which have had drapes applied. The drapes themselves, as you have no control over them, often have serious poke-through issues where the clothing intersects with the skin underneath. For that reason alone, I found myself having to do more work to repair these issues than I would have by using conforming clothes.

    No doubt the paid version of the plugin puts these issues to pasture, but as a starting point for dynamic clothing in Daz Studio, the free plugin doesn't inspire confidence. It's hard to justify buying the full plugin when you're not even certain those issues are fixed.

    I bought the plug in for Studio unfortunately there is not a hella lot of dynamic clothing for Studio and some of the stuff I did get was not the great.. As others have said the problem is the market for it is small mainly because of the exorbitant cost of the software to create for Studio.

    Post edited by Ghosty12 on
  • JimmyC_2009JimmyC_2009 Posts: 8,891
    edited December 1969

    .. As others have said the problem is the market for it is small mainly because of the exorbitant cost of the software to create for Studio.


    The basic plugin comes free with DAZ Studio, but it is true, that you cannot make your own clothing.

    There are 16 pages of free clothing on the Optitex site for DAZ Studio : http://www.optitex-dynamiccloth.com/FreebieDownload01.php
  • BarubaryBarubary Posts: 1,148
    edited December 1969

    No doubt the paid version of the plugin puts these issues to pasture, but as a starting point for dynamic clothing in Daz Studio, the free plugin doesn't inspire confidence. It's hard to justify buying the full plugin when you're not even certain those issues are fixed.

    I wouldn't necessarily say so. I do have the paid plugin and besides the horrible bugs dynamics seem to introduce to the scene, you just get a lot of other confusing settings that in my experience only help very getting clothes to drape properly.

    Dynamics are a horrible pain to use, but if you get through the headaches they will cause you, you can get some pretty nice effects.

  • SimonWMSimonWM Posts: 901
    edited April 2014

    As a merchant I started selling conforming clothes for DAZ. My first product ever was a set of conforming clothes for the Freak 3. But to me there is no comparison with how dynamic clothes look compared with conforming so when I had the opportunity to work with Martin developing dynamic clothes I never look back.

    Unlike Poser dynamics the dynamic engine in DAZ Studio by Optitex is a hybrid since it requires the cloth to be rigged to the figure so it follows it. You DO NOT need to do an animation in order for it to work. It will conform to the character's pose just like conforming clothes. Unlike conforming clothes this is a fast rig where there is a lot of pokethru. That will get resolved once you start the simulation. In order for this conforming to work you need to have the clothing be rigged to your figure. The generation 4 figures have a different bone structure than Genesis 1 & 2. This breaks the conforming features of dynamic clothes created for M4 & V4 on Genesis 1 & 2 so you need the clothes to be re-rigged to Genesis 1 & 2 in order to have the conforming/dynamic feature that makes the experience superior to Poser dynamic clothes.

    As for controlling the simulation in an advanced way the basic version is fine for someone who only wants to experiment with it and doesn’t do any “real” work with it. If you want to have better control and be able to manipulate the simulation making the clothes do certain things then you need the advanced features of the plugin. You have to spend some time with it and use it until you develop a feel of how it works, is not like conforming clothes where you just pose the character and the clothes follow and you spin some morphs to adjust. Conforming clothes works ok on a certain range of poses, there are certain poses where the illusion is totally broken by conforming clothes and it looks like a piece of cardboard that you are forcing around the body. That is something that doesn’t happens with dynamic clothes and for certain projects it is indispensable.

    There are a couple people working on a more open dynamic engine for DAZ Studio so you may see an alternative to Optitex soon though. As far as I know they will be backwards compatible with the dynamic clothes we have in the store now.

    Also as far as bugs there is only one that I'm aware of and I use dynamic clothes extensively. It occurs when saving a scene with dynamic clothes that have more than one style (geometry switching). What you should do in order to avoid any conflicts when re-opening a scene with dynamic clothes that have more than one style is to always freeze your simulation before saving it, that way you can be sure you will keep your drape. If you don't freeze the simulation you will get unexpected results when reopening such scene. This bug has been there since Studio version 3, I filled many bug reports about it but for some reason DAZ has never been able to fix it.

    So to go back to the original question, to me fewer people use dynamic clothes because there are more conforming clothes available and it takes more time to master. Anyone can get conforming clothes to work instantly but dynamic clothes require a bit of thinking and tinkering with the controls before you can get excellent results. Having said that there are certain type projects you might need conforming clothes and vice-versa.

    Post edited by SimonWM on
  • icprncssicprncss Posts: 3,647
    edited December 1969

    Cloth dynamics has a learning curve. Whether it is done in DS, Poser or Maya. Depending upon the cloth plugin, various factors have to be taken into account. What you can accomplish with each one takes time to master. There is no simple one click solution. Which is why many users tend to use conformers.

  • zigraphixzigraphix Posts: 2,813
    edited December 1969

    I prefer less form-fitting clothes for many of my images, and it's difficult to get some clothing types to work well in conforming versions. I have a large number of kimono sets, for example, and they all have issues I have to work around.

    I like the idea of the Optitex system, because the clothes are conforming and pose with the figure until you run the drape simulation, making it very easy to set up and adjust a scene. Unfortunately, OptiTex dynamics have limitations in how far from the body the mesh can extend to be converted to this system, which rules out long kimono sleeves. Those have to be handled in a fully animated simulation from T pose.

    I still hope for a system that will provide the benefits of poseable clothes with the ability to drape all or part of the clothing, adjust, and re-drape, on any mesh, including one that has taken morphs from the underlying figure, while still allowing additional adjustments. But I think it will be a while coming.

  • SimonWMSimonWM Posts: 901
    edited April 2014

    The most advanced systems have "live simulations" like Marvelous Designer and I assume Optitex, where you are able to grab your clothes with the mouse and adjust it around your character in realtime while it reacts to the shape it is over with friction and gravity. Poser Pro 2014 introduced a "live" mode for cloth but it won't work with their dynamic clothes engine which defeats the purpose.

    Post edited by SimonWM on
  • Herald of FireHerald of Fire Posts: 3,489
    edited December 1969

    SimonWM said:
    Unlike Poser dynamics the dynamic engine in DAZ Studio by Optitex is a hybrid since it requires the cloth to be rigged to the figure so it follows it. You DO NOT need to do an animation in order for it to work. It will conform to the character's pose just like conforming clothes. Hmm, my experience says otherwise but then I don't buy alot of dynamic clothing as a result. For a start, all of the free dynamics on the optitex site do not conform whatsoever to the figure and you need to drape the whole thing from a T-pose in order to get it to sit properly, hence why you need an animation for them to work. Perhaps some work differently to others, but so far every dynamic cloth I've used in DS has behaved this way. Conversely, and perhaps ironically, the Poser cloth room will allow me to turn most conforming clothing into dynamics meaning I can indeed start from a base pose before running the drape.

    SimonWM said:
    Unlike conforming clothes this is a fast rig where there is a lot of pokethru. That will get resolved once you start the simulation.I created an animation using a dynamic dress in DS and it was constantly speckled with poke throughs. And this was indeed using the correct figure for the item. With Poser dynamics you can specify how far it needs to be before it calculates collisions and how big the offset is, effectively preventing poke-through before it starts. I believe this is also in the advanced options of the dynamics plugin for DS, but as I don't own the plugin it's hard to comment on how the two differ.

    As for controlling the simulation in an advanced way the basic version is fine for someone who only wants to experiment with it and doesn’t do any “real” work with it. If you want to have better control and be able to manipulate the simulation making the clothes do certain things then you need the advanced features of the plugin.

    I see it as a bit of a catch. On the one hand you don't have many reasons to buy the advanced plugin since there aren't many dynamic outfits available. On the other hand, there aren't many dynamic outfits because the dynamic clothing plugin we do get puts us off the idea... and also because its exorbitantly expensive to make them. I think that's why many people are happier to use conforming clothing, and why I'll stick to Poser's cloth room if I ever need a drape.

    Also as far as bugs there is only one that I'm aware of and I use dynamic clothes extensively. It occurs when saving a scene with dynamic clothes that have more than one style (geometry switching). What you should do in order to avoid any conflicts when re-opening a scene with dynamic clothes that have more than one style is to always freeze your simulation before saving it, that way you can be sure you will keep your drape. Unfortunately, it seems that 'freezing' a drape is a feature locked to the advanced plugin. The only options basic users get are 'Drape' and 'Clear'. It makes using Dynamics an absolute chore when you can no longer load a previous save because it crashes Daz Studio every time. Also, if I'm to understand the readme correctly, it's saved effectively as morph data, so if you were working on an animation wouldn't you still be required to rerun the entire drape from the start to get it back to the same level?

    Dynamics are great, that's something I won't argue with. However, the clumsy implementation in Daz Studio puts a lot of people off the idea of using them. It's arguable I'd change my tune if I used the advanced plugin, but given the expense of it and then being vendor-locked to Optitex only it's a hard purchase to justify for me.

  • RenpatsuRenpatsu Posts: 828
    edited April 2014

    Hmm, my experience says otherwise but then I don't buy alot of dynamic clothing as a result. For a start, all of the free dynamics on the optitex site do not conform whatsoever to the figure and you need to drape the whole thing from a T-pose in order to get it to sit properly, hence why you need an animation for them to work. ...

    Not my experience, I'd say around 98/99% even of the free clothing is conforming, same goes for the paid ones. Due to that I am able to do the majority of drapings without animation and only reserve animations for advanced handling. Even if a dynamic clothing item is not rigged for a specific figure you can usually get away to apply a pose to the dynamic cloth rig or pose manually. Furthermore, you can actually use smoothing modifier in conjunction with dynamics to some extent in DAZ Studio.

    Post edited by Renpatsu on
  • icprncssicprncss Posts: 3,647
    edited December 1969

    zigraphix said:
    I prefer less form-fitting clothes for many of my images, and it's difficult to get some clothing types to work well in conforming versions. I have a large number of kimono sets, for example, and they all have issues I have to work around.

    I like the idea of the Optitex system, because the clothes are conforming and pose with the figure until you run the drape simulation, making it very easy to set up and adjust a scene. Unfortunately, OptiTex dynamics have limitations in how far from the body the mesh can extend to be converted to this system, which rules out long kimono sleeves. Those have to be handled in a fully animated simulation from T pose.

    I still hope for a system that will provide the benefits of poseable clothes with the ability to drape all or part of the clothing, adjust, and re-drape, on any mesh, including one that has taken morphs from the underlying figure, while still allowing additional adjustments. But I think it will be a while coming.

    Hybrid clothing is nothing new. I've been clothifying the skirt of the Morphing Fantasy Dress since the days of Poser 5. eFrontiers created and sold an entire line of hybrid clothing for the P6 figures when they owned Poser. The only drawback was you were limited to the figure it was designed for due to the conforming part of the outfit.

    Not only will a system that has all options rolled into one neat little package be a long time coming, I would hazard a guess that it would be pretty resource intensive as well.

  • Coon RaCoon Ra Posts: 200
    edited December 1969

    RAMWolff said:
    Something that was promised a couple of years back and never came about. Alex and Ken are working on a dynamics engine for this purpose as well as making LAMH more dynamic.... Can't wait!

    I'd say closer to decade, not couple years.
  • robkelkrobkelk Posts: 3,259
    edited December 1969

    I use DS for spot illustrations in PowerPoint slides, user documentation, and similar things. It's bad enough that I have to spend minutes waiting for a render; I certainly can't afford to wait hours for one. Hence, no dynamic anything gets used in my images.

  • SimonWMSimonWM Posts: 901
    edited April 2014

    Hmm, my experience says otherwise but then I don't buy alot of dynamic clothing as a result. For a start, all of the free dynamics on the optitex site do not conform whatsoever to the figure and you need to drape the whole thing from a T-pose in order to get it to sit properly, hence why you need an animation for them to work. Perhaps some work differently to others, but so far every dynamic cloth I've used in DS has behaved this way. Conversely, and perhaps ironically, the Poser cloth room will allow me to turn most conforming clothing into dynamics meaning I can indeed start from a base pose before running the drape.

    If you use the clothes on the wrong figure that will indeed happen. Generation 4 freebees which are most or all the ones in the Optitex site will only work with generation 4 as conformers.


    I created an animation using a dynamic dress in DS and it was constantly speckled with poke throughs. And this was indeed using the correct figure for the item. With Poser dynamics you can specify how far it needs to be before it calculates collisions and how big the offset is, effectively preventing poke-through before it starts. I believe this is also in the advanced options of the dynamics plugin for DS, but as I don't own the plugin it's hard to comment on how the two differ.

    You need the advanced plugin to help with animations. Sequential, concurrent, time step and iterations will help with what you want to do.

    ]Unfortunately, it seems that 'freezing' a drape is a feature locked to the advanced plugin. The only options basic users get are 'Drape' and 'Clear'. It makes using Dynamics an absolute chore when you can no longer load a previous save because it crashes Daz Studio every time. Also, if I'm to understand the readme correctly, it's saved effectively as morph data, so if you were working on an animation wouldn't you still be required to rerun the entire drape from the start to get it back to the same level?

    You are using freebees that were meant to be used with an older version of DAZ Studio and another version of the figures using the free version of the software and expecting it to work with an advanced feature such an animation. With less than half the toolbox and dated resources inside the latest version of Studio your chances for success are not the best.

    Post edited by SimonWM on
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