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Summer is a morph for V7...not clothing.
There are two basic ways to make a character...start with the base or start with an already existing character. In this case, Summer was based on V7. Which should mean that she is also using the V7 UV set...but that's a whole different kettle of fish.
I made the same mistake looking at the promos, and put her under Cloths in my notes (invintory).
FWSA Adaline on the left, and R.S. Summer on the right. Basic G3F underwear, and Krayon Hair for G3F.
The outfit came with G3F essentials. The figures and hair were in the V7 Pro Pack. Hmmm.
I have a lot of hair styles from "goldtassel" for G2F, and this has never happened on G2F. I have many G2F figures from Fred, Sabby, Raziel, and Silver, and none of them have ever had problem remotely this bad. These are five PA's that I'm really sure know this 3D stuff far better then I ever will, so I'm sure it has got to be something else.
P.S. oh, how did I get the bra to not have such horrid poke threw, by using the 'AdjustFit' dial to put it in mid air around a few inches away from the figure. Clearly the figure shape is not being transferred to the cloths and hair (skull-cap).
Now to be fair, I can understand how someone in a hurry could have easily missed this. Just looking at the view field (that has a lower subdivision then in a render), the issue is not that bad with stuff that is in the V7 pro pack.
The Blue wireframe mesh, is a second G3F with V7 dialed in to the same amount of the figure G3F it is overlapping. The cloths and hair is fitted to FWSA Adaline on the left, and R.S. Summer right (Orange mesh). Clearly the shaping of the orange wireframe is completely ignored by the cloths that are fitted to it.
The outfit is Post Apocalyptic Outfit for G3F, and the hair is Leyton Hair for G3F / Krayon Hair for G3F. All part of the V7 Pro Pack.
I have submitted a ticket regarding the broken G3F "Autofollow ON" mechanism.
197774: G3F cloths and G3F hair don't fit G3F figures.
Symptoms. Massive poke-threw around the hip and chest for outfits, and spotty scalp with hair. Other areas of the G3F figure may be susceptible to this, and because of the nature of this issue, mesh smoothing is rendered infective as a work-around.
Affected figures. FWSA AdalineHD, FWSA Bonnie, Raz.Sil. Summer. Des. Carmilla. Possibly other G3F figures I don't have the funds left to get.
Affected outfits. Everything close to the chest or hip. Bandeau Bikini for G3F, Hongyus Bikini For V7, Post Apocalyptic Outfit for G3F, All of G3F Essentials stuff. Bounce outfit for G3F, etc, etc.
Affected Hair, Krayon Hair for G3F, Leyton Hair for G3F. Possibly other G3F hair styles I don't have the funds left to get.
(EDIT 25Jul2015 14:54utc) Des. Carmilla is absolutely in the affected figures list now. It dose appear the G3F has a Pandemic outbreak in progress, and the only two figures that are immune to this outbreak is EJ Tatijana and, EJ_Valeria.
Tech is caught up in all the minor details of individual outfits and individual figures, and are blind to the bigger picture. Auto-follow is broken on G3F, and only the figures that have specific JCMs made for them are working (as the JCMs are replacing the broken Auto-follow). Daz3D has been informed about the problem, and the issue is blatantly obvious in all the test renders I've done.
There is nothing more I can do to fix this issue, and the rest is beyond my control.
SHEPPARD: Know what the problem is? Too much information.There's only so much information you need to make a decision. Anything after that complicates it.
Reproducing this. If you have the V7 pro pack, this is so simple to reproduce.
1, Open Daz Studio.
2, Go to the smart tab, and select the 'Figures' category.
3, Scroll down, and double-click the 'Summer' figure icon.
*It may be easier to type 'Sum' into the search thing to narrow down the list of figures in the smart tab. Don’t forget to remove the text from the search thing after you've loaded Summer into the scene.
4, Make sure Summer is selected in the scene tab, and then select 'wardrobe' in the smart tab.
5, select swimwear or underwear sub-category in the smart tab under the 'wardrobe' category.
6, select a random swimwear or underwear outfit, and double-click it to load it onto the figure.
7, try not to fall back in the chair as the TOS violating poke-threw appears on your screen.
Some outfits don't show the affect as bad in the view-field until a spot-render or regular render is done.
Do you know of another morph to test it with, perhaps a freebie? The only morphs I have are V7, Bethany 7, and Metamorphosis.
Snip-it of some text, that I was just typing to someone.
Until the 3rd of this month, I only had six G3F figures excluding V7. Two of them only used the basic G3F shaping dials, and v7 body shape, and as a result cloths fit them fine (the EmmaAndJordi G3F figures). The other four (FWSA AdalineHD, FWSA Bonnie, Raz.Sil. Summer. Des. Carmilla.) use custom (z-brush or whatever) shapes, and the 4 of them all have cloth-fitting issues.
I have yet to try this with any one else, as said, until the 3rd, I only had V7. I'm doing an inventory and installing Eva7 and newer stuff now (it will take some time).
(end of snip-it)
Oh, some things become loose with Anna. Not exactly as bad as having poke-threw, still something is off.
http://www.sharecg.com/v/81317/gallery/21/DAZ-Studio/Anna
I suspect the majority of Z-brushing was on the reduce size for her (pushing the mesh inward), rather then making the surfaces expand outward (pulling the mesh outward).
Is the problem that these morphs have autofollow turned off, or that autofollow is turned on and not being applied correctly?
That one for the one figure body shape dial that I looked at that with. If the figure is made of smaller individual attributes, I'm not able to see those 'Hidden' dials. I found a dial for Summer body under hidden FBM things (when it was on Summer), and when I spun it, the shape was nothing like summer. the body size was there, tho smaller details were missing (just looking at the shape of the cloths vs the figure). It was quite odd, and on the edge of what I understand as far as how figure shape stuff works.
Basically the areas that you see gaping gaps or massive poke threw in my renders, was the areas that the 'Summer FBM' thing did nothing to the shape of the cloths. (summer is on the right, that is with that FBM dial at 100%)
For what it's worth, I have the same issue with Summer and clothing, which I only just discovered because I hadn't used her as yet.
When you put Basic Wear on her, Summer has pokethrough on her chest. Altering the value of smoothing and collision actually just makes it worse. The issue is also present with Adaline, but to a much lesser degree. Also, looking at the main body dial for Summer, in my copy, Autofollow is on; whether or not it's working is another issue, and not one I'm able to address, because I can't tell what to look for. (EDIT: Summer has three visible dials - one main controller that automatically dials in the head and body, one for the head, one for the body. Autofollow is OFF for the main controller; clicking the box and saying OK does nothing visible. Autofollow is ON for the body-only slider; again, clicking the setting to turn it off and saying OK to save for the scene does nothing.)
Bethany also has the same issue with Basic Wear, but that makes a sort of sense; Basic Wear predates her.
Another issue specific to Basic Wear is that it ships with smoothing off by default. Easy enough to fix, of course, but that's a strange decision.
EDIT 2: I have the same issue, in a very mild way, with the right side of Post Apocalyptic Top. It DOES have Smoothing ON by default. Weirdly, if I turn Collision Iterations to 0 (zero), the pokethrough goes away, which is makes less than no sense.
The problem, for me, seems to be clothing-specific. The new Corset Dress corset works perfectly on all three of them.
In the hopefully attached image, from left to right: Summer, Adaline, Bethany.
That's because the mesh smoothing on them, as going to the V7 value (shape), and ignoring the hip-ridge (width I guess) along with other attributes of the non-daz figure shape. A few posts up, I threw another G3F with just V7 dialed in overlapping Adaline and Summer. The cloths are fitted to the 'Orange' wireframe (Adaline and Summer), yet they fit the shape of the V7 blue wireframe perfectly. That simple test proved it to me, something is wrong with Auto-follow on G3F.
The answer I got from tech, is "Use the adjustment dials in the outfits to fix that". Ah yea, that's not a fix for the problem, That's just more grief to use something I paid for, lol.
For some reason, I'm not having issues with the lower body, only the chest, and only some items. I'm not seeing the hair issue you pointed out at all.
Also, that wouldn't work, if the issue is that certain clothing isn't following the additional morph but is instead only following Victoria 7. You can't easily adjust to a shape the clothing may not take into account.
A question: apart from Basic Wear and Post Apocalyptic top, is all of the stuff you've been trying from after the V7 initial release? I'm not seeing this issue any any of the DAZ produced clothing that I got after the initial V7 release; only the stuff that came out with V7. Unfortunately, I don't have any swimsuits or anything else like that to try. And I'm not seeing it in anything I got elsewhere. Valkyrie dress, which is part of the Bethany bundles, works fine on all three of them.
Also, I checked the hidden morphs that get pushed into the clothing. Autofollow is on for all of them (including the head morph that I have no idea what it's doing in clothes); I tried dialing the hidden morphs out, and the clothing deformed even more, so Autofollow is definitely working. Whether or not it's working correctly, I can't say.
Oddly, if I start dialing out the FBMVictoria7 hidden morph in the Postapocalyptic top, it starts fitting to Summer better, even though the percentage of V7 pushed into the top matches the percentage of V7 dialed in for Summer. Very very strange.
Oh, and Basic Wear and Postapocalyptic top fit perfectly on Eva, but that makes a kind of sense, since she has the least curvy body of all of them.
The bottom of the 'basic wear' is loose fitting, and much more forgiving then other stuff. Yes basically everything I tried from the first few weeks of the G3F/V7 launch. After that like now, I have no play funds left to get more. The list of affected clothe is extensive. With some it's just a spec here or there because of it being lose fitting. Others like that Hongyus Bikini For V7, there is no room for auto-follow to be off even a nanometer.
Agreed, "Breast size" adjustment in some clothes, is not an adequate replacement for something akin to the G2F "Breasts natural" or "Breast diameter" things, lol. You can make the cloths there bigger or smaller, just not match the shape, lol.
I'm currently making an inventory of all the stuff I purchased the past few days. Then I'll install the stuff from the third (including Eva7 pro). Bethany 7 pro is in the Que (I'm still making the list of stuff for her, and saving promo images from the store for them).
Okay, I see it with Bethany and Basic Wear. If the Smoothing Iterations is set to 1 it works fine, but higher than that you get poke-through. Can you try it with other shapes/clothing and see if setting Smoothing Iterations to 1 works for those?
Summer is so far off from V7's shape, smothing dose nothing for her, not even at 60.
Bouncy outfit vs FWSA Adaline at Smothing Iterations of 1. There is still that gap at the top, where V7 is a tad bit 'larger' then Adaline there... then I spin around, and, wow. Looks like she slid quite a bit down the road on that area, looks painful, lol.
This is only a guess.
Both G3F and Victoria 7 got updates not long after they came out. I'm pretty certain that there's at least one update to G3F I remember getting that isn't listed on her Readme page at http://docs.daz3d.com/doku.php/public/read_me/index/21630/start because I remember asking what it was for, and nobody being really sure.
My guess is that maybe parts of this issue were present in both the figure and the clothing. When they fixed ... whatever they fixed in G3F, it may be that they fixed it in the figure, and in the tools vendors use to make clothes (or else the fix in the figure was enough to take care of things going forward), but not in the clothing that was issued before. So it still has whatever was wrong with it, but newer clothing doesn't have the same problem.
I didn't buy much V7/G3F clothing early on, because I don't need much in the way of swimwear or fantasy stuff. What I have gotten was more recent, and I'm not seeing this issue in any more recent stuff. I'm also not seeing it in any G3F stuff that I bought elsewhere, or in freebies from elsewhere, which ... I have no idea how to interpret. I'm also not seeing it in anything that I converted from G2F to G3F, but I only started doing that with anything in the past couple weeks, after G3F had been updated a few times.
I'll see about getting some more recent underwear sets or some such, maybe, and see if the issue is still there. It may be specific types of clothing, or maybe just limited to specific items or a specific time period.
EDIT: I have OOT's Paradise underwear for G2F. I upconverted it to G3F, put it on Summer, and ... nothing. It fits her just as it should, no pokethough. The only thing I can think is that, as I mentioned, the issue was fixed in the figure and newer stuff, but not older stuff.
I do remember some of them updates, as the timing of a few was about the same time other odd pose tied to figure dial glitches was discovered. Move the Anna dial to a different category in the shaping tab fixed that, tho what was linking random poses to her is still not known, lol. There is a whole thread on that, filled with allot of confusion and unknowns, lol.
Just keep this list in mind, I know all these outfits do not work with the listed figures, without considerable fussing around with dials and in some cases quite a few D-form things.
Affected figures. FWSA AdalineHD, FWSA Bonnie, Raz.Sil. Summer. Des. Carmilla. Possibly other G3F figures.
Affected outfits. Bandeau Bikini for G3F, Hongyus Bikini For V7, Post Apocalyptic Outfit for G3F, All of G3F Essentials stuff. Bounce outfit for G3F, OOT "V Strap Suit" for G3F (renderosity). Possibly others.
Whatever is going on is weirdly inconsistent, though. You mention Adaline and Summer, and "all of G3F Essentials stuff", which includes Dark Storm, a fantasy outfit thing. I tested Dark Storm on Adaline, Bethany, and Summer, and had no issues. Unfortunately, I don't have any of the other characters you're talking about, or any of those outfits except Postapocalyptic -- which has pokethrough with the top with every character, but nobody has problems with the shorts. (Apparently, after the apocalypse, we'll all be wearing wee tiny shorts. Who knew? but that's not important right now.)
I even tested on Adrienne and Kimiko from Renderosity, which are custom sculpts throughout head and most of the body -- they don't use V7 at all and very few of the G3F morphs -- so you'd expect issues. With the Basic Wear top, Kimiko is fine (and relatively small-busted) while Adrienne has very mild pokethrough, but it can't be made to go away easily. (Whatever is going on with Basic Wear is just odd. It loads with smoothing present but off, and if you turn on smoothing, simply doing that OR reducing OR increasing smoothing and/or collision iterations makes pokethrough worse, which makes less than no sense. Though ... it would explain why it loads with smoothing off, which may indicate that they knew something was up with it, but ran out of time to find it and fix it before launch, so they turned smoothing off and hoped for the best. They launched G3F during a major sale, which always buries Sales and Tech Support in tickets, and a new generation figure doubled down on that, and probably before they could dig out from that, along came Eva which ramps up tickets again, and before they could dig out from that, along came Bethany -- and her shape is so different from everyone else in her generation that I'd expect issues. I hope we're done with figure launches for the month -- though I wouldn't expect it -- so that maybe they can catch up a little.)
Apart from the "not seeing the forest for the trees" thing (been there, doing that with Support on something else, myself), it's going to be difficult for them to track because people have different characters and clothing, apart from the Essentials. The Essentials stuff, I would be willing to bet, launched with a known issue, but the varying nature of people's collections is going to make it difficult to track.
agreed vwrangler, everything I have had that I tested so far, was from the first few days of G3F/V7. I just didn't want to say it in such a bad sounding way, in the hopes of a fix being in the works. It dose appear that there was many problems around launch time, and it did feel like it was all rushed out the door.
I'm about to find out if Eva7 pro bundle stuff is just as bad, or hopefully not so bad. Especially on the non-daz Eva7 figures (as they probably don't have JCMs specifically made for them in outfits). And as such, if 'Auto follow' is still broken, it should also happen with them. I now have a new swimsuit and set of underwear to test on all the former figures as well. Sounds like a really big memory hogging figure line up test in the works, lol.
As for the flood of updates to G3F around launch. I was not able to notice anything till the third of last month when I got V7 pro. So I was equaly scratching my head as to what they were (most of the stuff mentioned in the wright-up for them went over my head). It is quite possible, that the JCM/FBM things made by the PAs prior to the updates, were broken by the updates. It was one of the reasons I was hoping this could be addressed before to much stuff had left the barn.
P.S. in a PM with 'Cris', it was demonstrated that mesh smoothing thing fixed the issue with Basic underwear on bethany7, tho other stuff had no issues (most stuff loose fitting on the underside of the breasts). very odd indeed. Fixmypcmike mentioned smoothing iterations of one, 'cris' demonstrated that set to twenty. I have yet to install the stuff from the 4th (including Bethany 7 pro). Demonstrated by two parties (pluses a third in the Bethany7 thread), I will consider that combination confirmed.
For the poke through, have you tried adding the push modifier and setting it to .01-.1? That usually works for me on most items. I don't have any of the sets you are having issues with to test. I use some more "extreme" shapes, and this was very common with Genesis 1, especially when the clothing topology was way different than the undelying Genesis figure (and mesh density in the affected area was low). Topology and/or mesh density may be the issue with the items you are having problems with, especially given that you are have more problems with HD figures. Have you tried increasing collision iterations and subd for the clothing?
Just a few thoughts that are propably wrong on all counts
The problems your experiencing with the Basic Wear looks like it is indeed caused by the topology (and possibly rigidity groups) of the basic wear.
Here is the wire frame for G3F with V7 at 100%
Now compare the topology and polygon density to the Basic Wear top below ....
Below is the results after setting Breast Shape 1 to 50% on G3F - There is enough difference in the topology/density between the two that there aren't enough polygons in the right places to follow the deformation properly.
DustRider, those are very good points, that I haven't looked at. the lack of mesh density, plus the lack of sub-d used to make the auto-generated morphs. On the sides, top, and underside of the breasts, and on the sides of the hips?
Something I'll need to look at. I have three things going at the same time this second, so it will be a bit, before I get Studio fired up on this comp (and hopefully the forum on a Pi2, somehow. Another topic, for another forum, it at least works, that's a good start).
You all do realize that Basic Wear isn't really a G3F item? It's 'converted'...the mesh and UVs are the same as the V4 version...it can use the same materials.
If they're going to put Basic Wear out as a G3F essential, it ought to actually fit G3F shapes without pokethrough or deformation; activating Smoothing should not make those issues worse. It's not unreasonable to expect that.
On top of that, Postapocalyptic is NOT, as far as I know, an upconverted V4 item, and it shows the same issues. Zarcon is experiencing the issues with other clothing besides that, although I haven't really seen it elsewhere; we also have very few characters and very few clothing items in common.
It's just easier to see in Basic Wear because there's just enough coverage to see what's happening and where.
I am starting to feel like this is just a long string of bad, and I'm only testing more stuff that proves nothing beyond what I've already showen with the first four non-daz figures last month. Still, has any thing changed, apparently not with the Monokini included in the Eva7 Pro bundle. With FWSA Adaline, Big gaping gaps around the chest, and on the side of the hips (exactly where Adaline is smaller then V7). Further more, none of the supplied or autogenerated morph dials address this all that well. Still, I have more stuff to look at, including where the mesh lines are in the 'newer' outfits.
(EDIT 06Aug2015) as Soudelor bears down on southeast Asia, I will express my deepest conscern for all involved over there. I decided to pull myself away from vids skipping and stuttering on this decrepit Pi2 with Ubuntu-mate, to do some quick test renders I said I would do yesterday. Nothing special except for the Basic wear (I turned mesh smoothing on as described by others, it's just as bad with smoothing off).
This is "FWSA Dayna HD for Eva 7" included in the Eva7 Pro bundle. Left to right, Bandeau Bikini for G3F, Hongyu's Bikini for V7, Basic wear for G3F, Bounce Outfit for G3F, Monokini for G3F. (The Monokini far right is also included in the Eva7 pro bundle) This is not looking good.
vwrangler, agreed, especially if the stuff is all included in the same 'Pro Bundle', that I do expect to "Just Work" without grief. How else do they make the promo images for the 'Pro Bundles', somebody, somewhere, had to notice something was not working. Enough of that 'rant' from me, I could go on for pages on that with G3F figures, Back to the testing.
The one time I didn't check before just tossing on the "TOS protection", is the one time it's not needed.
I haven't a clue what DES (DemonicaEvilius and Silver) did correct this time with "Fiora for Eva 7",...it works! I now have three non-daz G3F figures I can use.
The body shape appears to be a custom shape, that dose not use any other dials except the Eva7 dial, plus some custom attributes (Z-brushed or hidden G3F shaping presets I don't know). ALL five of the outfits fit perfectly, except the bouncy outfit is a tad loose across the top (it is an older outfit).
I will note, that if the solution was to stay within a mold of sorts, just to not have auto-follow break, then that is "quite tragic". If it was something else that dose not limit the custom body shape possibilities, then I can't say it without sounding 'religious', thank god, lol.
Again, Left to right, Bandeau Bikini for G3F, Hongyu's Bikini for V7, Basic wear for G3F, Bounce Outfit for G3F, Monokini for G3F.
(EDIT) Hair works just as well on her. Left to right.
Krayon Hair for G3F, Chace Hair for G3F, Leyton Hair for G3F, Icie Hair for G3F, and Skyler Character (hair) for G3F.
They just pushed out updates to G3F Head Morphs (which shouldn't have anything to do with this) and G3F Starter Essentials. Wonder if this will fix the issue?
EDIT: Well, the update shouldn't fix this, even though they redo the entire package every time. According to the product readme:
2015-08-10 - Added an MCM for Eyes Iris Size when dialed in the negative. Fixed Brow- and Nose-Compression morphs to reference HD deltas files.
Which explains why both the Head Morphs and the Starter Essentials were updated; fixing facial files in G3F herself means that they have to tweak the head morphs, most likely. (And, indeed, the Head Morphs product readme has a note that says "pupils dilate fix". The G3F Body Morphs list no updates, and I don't remember seeing any for them, so this issue hasn't been addressed that way, if it's a figure issue.)
Zarcon, what happens when you autofit or transfer a bikini or some such from G2F to G3F and put it on one of the figures you're having issues with? It'll likely look like shrink wrap, of course, but beyond that, do you see any issues? I haven't, myself, which may indicate that the clone is in better shape than G3F herself. Which is weird, but this whole thing is weird.
...In fact ... I wonder what happens if we try autofitting/transferring the G2F version of Basic Wear to G3F?
For clothing issues, this just came out:
http://www.daz3d.com/wear-them-all-autofitting-clones-and-clothing-smoothers-for-genesis-3-female-s
Don't know how much help it'll be, but it's something...
CHEERS!
Rogerbee, that looks very good, and I do recall similar for G2F/M as well. And to partially answer vwrangler as well. With 'Auto-fit' the biggest issue is with the reassignment of mesh weight to the new 'bones' (that completely replace all former bones set up for the garment or hair). Ponytails and special skirts loose all the bones for posing them. And more so for cloths, any adjustments made by the PAs for areas around joints (as to where the bone crossover point is on the weight-maps) is completely wiped out. So even if it sits correctly on G3F in a 'T' pose, it still doesn’t move correctly when the figure is posed.
So yes, things like them 'Clothing smoothers' can be a big help getting things from another generation to fit properly. The issue is far more compounded then just that, and should not have any bearing for stuff made to be on the generation your working with, lol.
Vwrangler, I have yet to install those updates, so I can do a before and after set of test renders. Tho as you point out, the updates didn't directly address the issue. Particular aspects of a figure shape, simply are not transfused to the cloths. Things like the area under the breasts, the area on the 'Upper slope' of them as well. The width of the pelvis bone above the legs (hip ridge width), and the width of the thigh, to name a few.
Also the fact that the 'Auto generated morphs' are not done at a higher 'Sub division' level, probably doesn’t help much at all.
Rogerbee, and vwrangler. I think vwrangler at least partially agrees with my point of view, that when I get a Pro Pack, that comes with non-daz figures, cloths, and hair. I kind of expect that stuff to just work, without fussing with adjustments. It's enough that simply expanding-all on an outfit just to get rid of poke-threw, is not changing the shape of the garment to the figure it is on. The result is a garment that is not portraying the true shape of the figure it is on, rather the shape you see in the render is that of some one else, lol.
To put it another way (as embarrassing as it will probably be for me, lol), for example. I like Summer's and Adaline's Physique. When I attempted to dress them up for a render to post on the forum, the only way to get rid of the poke threw, was to make the cloths larger. The end result was not at all what Summer and Adaline looked like, and was instead just larger versions of V7 with a different face (that just is not cool, lol).