3Delight Laboratory Thread: tips, questions, experiments

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  • mjc1016mjc1016 Posts: 15,001
    edited December 2015

    This is the Modern Living Apartment Bedroom...with an UE2 bounce and Envlight2, with your 'simple sun' HDR, kettuworld 'space' and the background image from the 'parkinglot' HDR set on an envsphere justfor something to look at, of course).  One of the nice features of MLAB is that it has a 'blackout' box that basically seals it.  The only openings in the box are for the windows...

     

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    Post edited by mjc1016 on
  • wowiewowie Posts: 2,029

    Well, I've found out that UE2's max trace distance needs to be adjusted, depending on the sun's position. If the sun is quite low (long shadows), the shadows cast by objects might get clipped. I actually had to use something like 500 with that Hyperfocal HDRI.

  • wowiewowie Posts: 2,029
    edited December 2015

    Just finished reading this:

    https://www.fxguide.com/featured/renderman-under-the-new-varnish/

    I really like this quote:

    Christos Obretenov. "In particular with textures, RIS path tracer’s camera rays directly sample each shading point, as opposed to the grids sampling with ShadingRate in REYES, so you get much sharper textures in RIS: in REYES you would have to take the ShadingRate down to 0.25 to get that 'equivalent' quality (In RIS ShadingRate only applies to Displacements now)."

    Guess that's positive confirmation to that discussion in the old thread about shading rate in REYES and the raytrace hider. Didn't notice the part about displacements though, since i generally don't use displacements that heavily.

    Plus there's a render with color values from a Macbeth chart.

    Macbeth chart render by Liam Whitehouse.

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  • dracorndracorn Posts: 2,333

    METALLIC HAIR - Is it possible to create metallic hair in 3Delight? 

    • I used Gemologica on the skin, lips and eyes. 
    • Lights: Advanced Ambient Light: 70%
    • Hair: Desideria.  Used settings from Gemologica gold skin.
    • Changed Diffuse, with Specular Color lighter, Specular STR 80%
    • Glossy 70%
    • Reflect STR 20%  I even added Gemologica's Reflection jpg to the Reflection.

    The hair does look pretty good, but not metallic.  First Pic.

    Can't use Gemologica gold on the hair, because I lose the strands and transparency.  Second Pic.

    By the way, thanks to comments by ZarconDeeGrissom and Rogerbee in April - using Progressive Render shortened the time to 3 minutes (was 10).

     

     

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  • mjc1016mjc1016 Posts: 15,001

    You should be able to add the transparency maps back in for the hair, if you've used the Gemologica presets.

  • mjc1016 said:

    This is the Modern Living Apartment Bedroom...with an UE2 bounce and Envlight2, with your 'simple sun' HDR, kettuworld 'space' and the background image from the 'parkinglot' HDR set on an envsphere justfor something to look at, of course). 

     

    Very nice window shadows =)

    ----------------

    Another CC0 light map... With the main light coming from the opposite side. This time the sun is smaller, and the sky itself is darker. Probably too dark - so, it's either a supermoon night or a planet without atmosphere.

    http://www.mediafire.com/download/0c1j2hqhb6krz27/pinsun.exr

    -------------

    wowie said:

    Well, I've found out that UE2's max trace distance needs to be adjusted, depending on the sun's position. If the sun is quite low (long shadows), the shadows cast by objects might get clipped. I actually had to use something like 500 with that Hyperfocal HDRI.

    Yup, it's one of the reasons DelightGI defaults to a "crazy" high trace distance.

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  • dracorndracorn Posts: 2,333
    mjc1016 said:

    You should be able to add the transparency maps back in for the hair, if you've used the Gemologica presets.

    I added the transparency maps back in - there was a significant improvement, but not quite as metallic as I would like.  Wonder if that's the nature of the trans maps.

    I also add Advanced Distant Light to bring in some highlights and that's an improvement over the Ambient lights alone.  I imagine it will improve with proper lighting.

    First Pic: Before

    Second Pic: After

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    Morgana Full shader, trans maps.jpg
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  • Here's what I got from Amaya hair by using Mjc's metal preset Gold02 from here - http://www.sharecg.com/v/83017/gallery/7/Material-and-Shader/Metals - and the following adjustments:

    1) Transparency maps and bump maps put back in;

    2) Disabled refraction - for transparency maps to actually work (otherwise it should remain);

    3) Changed reflection to envmapped, added a map (from Openfootage.NET) and set reflection blur to 0;

    4) Specular glossiness changed to 95%.

    5) Bump strength adjusted (in this case, 25% strength).

    Lighting: AdvAmbient set to diffuse only (because that should be the default) and an AdvDistant light, both with colours and strengths adjusted.

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  • ZarconDeeGrissomZarconDeeGrissom Posts: 5,412
    edited December 2015

    Sorry for my absence, I've been rather busy in Hex on another project.

    Very nice looking project Kettu, and I'm not sure I totally follow that. I start to have doubts when I see settings over 100% for most things.

    UE2, well, most of the maps I have are black on the lower half, and at the very least light will 'diffuse' off the wails and reflect off the floor, so I'm not all that concerned by that horizon offset thing, just the negative vertical to a rather large margin of error, lol. I was looking at a vertical offset from the daz camera of something like 45 degrees down in the the chamber becoming 20 degrees down in the render slices, that is a tad bit to much, lol.

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    Post edited by ZarconDeeGrissom on
  • dracorndracorn Posts: 2,333
    edited December 2015

    Here's what I got from Amaya hair by using Mjc's metal preset Gold02 from here - http://www.sharecg.com/v/83017/gallery/7/Material-and-Shader/Metals - and the following adjustments:

    1) Transparency maps and bump maps put back in;

    2) Disabled refraction - for transparency maps to actually work (otherwise it should remain);

    3) Changed reflection to envmapped, added a map (from Openfootage.NET) and set reflection blur to 0;

    4) Specular glossiness changed to 95%.

    5) Bump strength adjusted (in this case, 25% strength).

    Lighting: AdvAmbient set to diffuse only (because that should be the default) and an AdvDistant light, both with colours and strengths adjusted.

    Thanks for your suggestions.  I wanted to keep the Gemologica preset, and found that settings you listed above simply weren't available - whether it was the preset or Desideria hair.  So I started playing with the surface settings and lights.  I need to learn the Advanced Lights, because I ran into noise when I played with those settings.  After bringing in a point light, the highlights of the hair came out.  Here are my final settings:

    FINAL for Desidaria Hair:
    Lighting Model: Glossy Metallic
    Diffuse Color: 190  133  48  /  Diffuse Strength 100%
    Glossiness 5%
    Specular Color 255  222  155 [MAP], Spec STR 75%
    [Map was on Opacity STR not Bump]
    Reflection Color 255  182  65 [Reflection map from Gemologica]
    Reflection STR 25%
    No Refraction
    Advanced Ambient Light 50% default settings
    Advanced Distant Light 60% default settings
    A point light near the hair brought out the highlights

    ** Using Progressive Rendering, it rendered in slightly over a minute.

    17 Final.jpg
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    Post edited by dracorn on
  • wowiewowie Posts: 2,029
    dracorn said:

    Thanks for your suggestions.  I wanted to keep the Gemologica preset, and found that settings you listed above simply weren't available - whether it was the preset or Desideria hair.

    The presets were presets for UberSurface, a shader bundled with DAZ Studio Default Lights and Shaders package. From your settings, I'm assuming you're still using DAZ Studio default shaders (mainly from the presence of lighting model).

  • Thank you Zarcon, and if by "over 100" you mean the 500 we're talking about, then it's not percent, it's centimeters. So it can be as high as necessary.

  • Mustakettu85Mustakettu85 Posts: 2,933
    edited December 2015

    So, this is an experiment with a bunch of older content from the DAZ store and Wowie's light/surface presets... I had to replace JPEG with the original PNG because the forum re-compressed my JPEG in a rather ugly way =(((

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  • mjc1016mjc1016 Posts: 15,001

    In this case, 100 would only be 1 meter.

    And 5 meters isn't very much,

  • wowiewowie Posts: 2,029
    edited December 2015

    So, this is an experiment with a bunch of older content from the DAZ store and Wowie's light/surface presets... I had to replace JPEG with the original PNG because the forum re-compressed my JPEG in a rather ugly way =(((

    3Delight RULEZ!!!! laugh

    After looking at how Image Engine uses Nuke, I'm pretty convinced they didn't use it to fix problems with renders. The dinosaurus models were all 'just' renders with 3delight and Maya.

    Btw, any thoughts on the RIS LM shader? I think the implementation is better than the Arnold shader, since they've went and add thickness to the coat. The only thing I'm not really sure of is the caustics.

    Post edited by wowie on
  • wowie said:
    After looking at how Image Engine uses Nuke, I'm pretty convinced they didn't use it to fix problems with renders. The dinosaurus models were all 'just' renders with 3delight and Maya.

    Most commercial work, especially for film, is - by all accounts - heavily postworked whatever engien is used.

  • wowiewowie Posts: 2,029

    Most commercial work, especially for film, is - by all accounts - heavily postworked whatever engien is used.

    Postworked as in terms of color grading, adding chromatic aberration, lens matching etc, yes. From that last live section with the Foundry, I didn't see any touchups on the raw render (in terms of shading). Like that one shot where they discuss the muscle tension on one of the raptor's (I think it was Blue) legs. They actually altered the lighting so that gets shown a bit better. One exception I see in terms of shading, they did bring out Blue's stripes a bit.

    Image Engine visual effects supervisor Martyn Culpitt. "They gave us textures and models, and we made shaders and made sure our lookdev matched theirs. On this and on Turtles we switched over to full raytracing in 3Delight for rendering. It’s a very close tool to RenderMan which means we can work very closely to ILM, as all our AOVs and the way the stuff is broken out is very similar."

    If I remember correctly, they still needed to fix specular with District 9.

  • wowie said:

    3Delight RULEZ!!!! laugh

    After looking at how Image Engine uses Nuke, I'm pretty convinced they didn't use it to fix problems with renders. The dinosaurus models were all 'just' renders with 3delight and Maya.

    Btw, any thoughts on the RIS LM shader? I think the implementation is better than the Arnold shader, since they've went and add thickness to the coat. The only thing I'm not really sure of is the caustics.

     

    'Course it does =D

    I think Image Engine also have 3Delight hooked up to Nuke to render particle FX in (for 'pure' FX over live footage), in addition to their Maya rendering setup. Maybe not for the Jurassic Park project, but they used it for something else that way IIRC.

    The LM seemed to me to be a yet another implementation of the 'Exploring layered BRDF potential' paper, which is quite robust. It's also the basis for the coating in the Maya 3DL Material and the varnish (and velvet) in my RadiumFabric.

  • wowie said:
    One exception I see in terms of shading, they did bring out Blue's stripes a bit.

    Wouldn't it be colour-grading, too?

  • wowiewowie Posts: 2,029
    edited December 2015

    Wouldn't it be colour-grading, too?

    Well, they specifically focus on it, so I hesitated calling it color grading. Mainly because I generally think of color grading as something that is applied to the entire scene. In that session, somebody asked about their SSS workflow and Joao Sita answered they did a bit of tweaks here and there, but I don't think it's a major 'fix it' cause it looks wrong. Like the stripes and the muscle movement, they probably just want to make it more pronounced, yet still blends logically with the entire scene.

    I like the jungle scene most, mainly cause they actually went and render an entire jungle for that. smiley But the Gallimimus shots were also good, in a very subtle way. And it is the longest scene they've work with. I think he said they spent a year on that and that's the final scene finished. Funny, I haven't actually finished watching the movie. laugh

    http://image-engine.com/film/jurassic-world/

    22K frames in two days, works out to around 7 to 8 frames per minute? I wonder how big the render farms they used.

    Post edited by wowie on
  • Yeah, tweaks are ubiquitous. I'm sure the live footage also gets tweaked a lot. 

    Is the movie any good by itself? I confess all the previous ones left me cold... although yes, all the FX were great for the time.

  • wowiewowie Posts: 2,029
    edited December 2015

    Is the movie any good by itself? I confess all the previous ones left me cold... although yes, all the FX were great for the time.

    Depends on your tastes.

    Timeline wise, it's a bit of an awkward progression. With the first movie, the idea of making a Jurassic part was a big no. The second one,Hammond turns all conservationist. Both movies are nowhere near Crichton's plotline from the books. In Crichton's books, Hammond died in the first one. Second one was interesting for me due to the elaboration of research and observation of the dinosaurs (the book, not the film). The third film was an odd one, but continues the timeline by basically keeping the islands in quarantine. Then we suddenly have a full park in this one.

    I'd say it's a little bit like Transformers - I basically just see it to see the robots fight each other and don't really mind the other elements. Well, at least I give Chris Pratt some praise, he does way more decent job than Shia Lebouf.

    Of course, you're talking to someone who really, really loves 2001 Space Odyssey And not just for the space trip. :D

    Post edited by wowie on
  • Mustakettu85Mustakettu85 Posts: 2,933
    edited December 2015
    wowie said:

    I'd say it's a little bit like Transformers - I basically just see it to see the robots fight each other and don't really mind the other elements. Well, at least I give Chris Pratt some praise, he does way more decent job than Shia Lebouf.

    Of course, you're talking to someone who really, really loves 2001 Space Odyssey And not just for the space trip. :D

     

    I see, thanks =)

    2001 is... trippy overall.

    Post edited by Mustakettu85 on
  • mjc1016mjc1016 Posts: 15,001

    Just because we can, doesn't mean we should.

    So far, the Universe is winning.

    Those are the two main 'themes' in the movie...plus lots of fun rendered dino action.  I just kept waiting for one of the trees to shout 'I am Groot!'...but, well, it was a different movie, after all.

    Now had Stanley Kubrick gotten a hold of these books that would have greatly improved the movies...but this one wasn't a horrible experience.  Unlike 3...just what was that? 

  • mjc1016 said:

    Just because we can, doesn't mean we should.

    So far, the Universe is winning.

    As in, dinos eat everyone up? I like that =D
  • wowiewowie Posts: 2,029
    edited December 2015
    mjc1016 said:

    Just because we can, doesn't mean we should.

    So far, the Universe is winning.

    Those are the two main 'themes' in the movie...plus lots of fun rendered dino action.  I just kept waiting for one of the trees to shout 'I am Groot!'...but, well, it was a different movie, after all.

    Now had Stanley Kubrick gotten a hold of these books that would have greatly improved the movies...but this one wasn't a horrible experience.  Unlike 3...just what was that? 

    I bought the 2001 Space Oddysey  special anniversary edition when I first saw it. laugh

    And I just love this quote of his, which pretty much sums it all.

    "The most terrifying fact about the universe is not that it is hostile but that it is indifferent; but if we can come to terms with this indifference and accept the challenges of life within the boundaries of death — however mutable man may be able to make them — our existence as a species can have genuine meaning and fulfillment. However vast the darkness, we must supply our own light."

    Post edited by wowie on
  • Douglas Adams and Michael Moorcock wrote similar things, too.

  • Messing with this year's DAZ Christmas freebies... Horo's sky HDR is nice, but very dark. Hyperfocal's noncommercial HDR sample looks just about right at gain 1, and with Horo's "Fork", gain should be upped to 5.

    RT SSS doesn't like "busy" maps in the DelightGI light anyway (neither Horo's, nor Hyperfocal's) - you can see the coloured noise on her skin in both renders, all over the place in the IBL-only "Fork" render and in the shadows in the "Alien room with area lights" one. With the simple maps I posted a while ago, there is nothing of this sort. I have an idea for changing the shader code that could theoretically improve the situation; we'll see in 2016 =)

    I'm also attaching a PNG of the watermark I threw together... use various blending modes with it for the best effect.

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  • wowiewowie Posts: 2,029

    Messing with this year's DAZ Christmas freebies... Horo's sky HDR is nice, but very dark. Hyperfocal's noncommercial HDR sample looks just about right at gain 1, and with Horo's "Fork", gain should be upped to 5.

    RT SSS doesn't like "busy" maps in the DelightGI light anyway (neither Horo's, nor Hyperfocal's) - you can see the coloured noise on her skin in both renders, all over the place in the IBL-only "Fork" render and in the shadows in the "Alien room with area lights" one. With the simple maps I posted a while ago, there is nothing of this sort. I have an idea for changing the shader code that could theoretically improve the situation; we'll see in 2016 =)

    I'm also attaching a PNG of the watermark I threw together... use various blending modes with it for the best effect.

    The noise is quite heavy. smiley

    Maybe adding 'Contrast' and 'Saturation' control like UE? As for noise, well raising the samples and MIS generally is the way to go.

    I noticed you're using the new 3delight logo, I liked the older ones though - the one you see with the various disributions (for Max, Maya and Softimage).

  • I'm not sure messing with the map contrast/saturation wouldn't throw MIS off completely.

    What I want to do is move environment/IDL sampling for the subsurface rays (specifically and only for them; no SSS displays no noise like that) inside the shader using a dedicated trace() as opposed to it being in the light and then sampled by the generic bsdf() in the shader. Shouldn't add overhead (the light won't be executed in that loop). Trace() makes full use of MIS and can be controlled better, while bsdf() seems to be prone to various noises and apparently only responds to general pixel samples. Let's hope it works the intended way.

    I just borrowed the logo off their website. Where exactly do I find the older one in the plugin packages?

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