IRay and a bunch of new map types in Xtreme Merchant Resources Set 01
Fuzzy_Troll
Posts: 12
Hello,
I just purchased "Xtreme Merchant Resources Set 01" and in it are the usuial maps but (i asume) because of iray there are a bunch of new texture maps and i dont know where they go on Daz Studio.
I have searched the forums and web and cant find any information pertaining to most of them. I thought someone here could help me. I have never tried to do my own settings before I have always used presets and adjusted them.
Here are a list of the maps i dont know where to put
Epidermal
Height
metallic
Roughness
SSS Weight
Subdermal
DM
Here are some i KINDA know where to put and have found some info about
Bump
Glossieness
Normal
Specular
and of course color/texture
I would be so happy to at least know where to put all these maps in the shader setup for Genesis 3 so that i can get the best use of them all.
I do thank you for all your time and consideration.
http://www.daz3d.com/xtreme-merchant-resources-set-01
Edit: changed link to direct Daz store link
Daz 3D is part of 
Connect
DAZ Productions, Inc.
224 S 200 W, Suite #250
Salt Lake City, UT 84101
Licensing Agreement | Terms of Service | Privacy Policy | EULA
© 2024 Daz Productions Inc. All Rights Reserved.
Comments
I figured the subdermal to be SSS, and the SSS weight to be a sort of mask; using them like that however gives some amazingly weird affects. Personally, some basic info would be good.
It's a decent package, and worth the discounted price; but the one thing missing imo, is the lack of eyebrow colour options...
That makes it much less of a resource.
As it stands, I wouldn't purchase 02, 03 etc; I'll get http://www.daz3d.com/merchant-base-skin-essentials-for-genesis-3-female-s, it costs slightly more but is more complete; wish I'd bought it on offer. :)
I was wondering is eather of the creaters (Fly028Design Nathy) have there own web site or some way of contacting them so that i might ask one of them for assistance?
Does anyone know?
Thanks.
I'm in the same boat. I'm a little disappointed that there is absolutely no useful documentation on the product and if something isn't forthcoming, then I'm likely to ask for a refund.
The lack of even a short readme by Daz PAs has become fairly endemic. I've had this argument with a few of them, including some who then spent more time "explaining" their position than it would have taken to write up a simple text file explaining rudimentary use of the product you just paid for.
This is a merchant resource not a tutorial on creating products or a finished character. Products like this are sold to save the hours and hours used to create a character texture from a patchwork of photographs. Merchant resource are far more complete than they use to be and you don't have to be AS careful with them as we use to. None the less, you should be able to make adjustments to the texture to make it your own if you plan to sell the character. You also need to check for unadjusted flaws that may need correcting. I think most of them are reasonably seam free now but you shouldn't have an expecation of perfection and should always check all of them. They are sold with the expectation that the end user will be able to sort out how to prepare everything for the final character.
I actually bought this one because it looks to be the best of the lot so far and it is clearly aimed at Iray characters. I'll be interested to see what happens with these somewhat unique translucence maps and sss colored maps. They are not like the ones I'm use to and it should be interesting to see the effect they have.
All of that said if you look at the type of map it is then you should be able to sort out where they go. The texture is the outer skin layer or the base in Iray, the epidermal will I think be the translucence map and the subdermal will go in the slot for SSS color. Most of the others should be easy to sort out based on the more traditional maps that we have as hold over from pre PBR characters. I suspect that this will be the most advanced merchant resource we see for a bit.
True, but I presume PAs like to sell product; a little more information might get a lot more sales. Look how little time it took you to type where what type went.
Merchant resources are not meant for the average user, they are for more advance users who know what to do with them.
Since there's no "metallic" layer in human skin, just as an example, there should be some minimum indication on where the less common maps go, and the associated settings they should have. Even an advanced user will have no point of reference on what to do with a "metallic" layer.
And, since there are no shader nodes that make reference to actual skin layers (epidermal, subderma), some *minimum* indication of where to plug these in, and associated settings, would be helpful. The product was obviously designed using specific nodes in mind, so why not mention them? Merchant resources are intended to save time, but if a product requires hours of experimentation just to overcome a lack of basic documentation, it's not a good value.
I have been experimenting with the new unknown maps and so far G3F eather winds up lobster red or porcelon white. and i havent figured out what the ones labeled like this Face01_DM_1001 go at all and still trying to figure out the epidermal and subdermal I tried the suggestion "Khory" gave but it didnt work. I figured out Height and metallic
(although the metallic seems to be just all black and I dont think its usefull for skin)
When a map as the word Weight on it what is that refering to?
P.S. I have been looking up and doing all kinds of tutorials on IRay textureing and so far none of them say anything about these extra maps and none tell you how to actualy make anything just how to modify old presets.
First of all why is my name in quotes? I've been using it for nearly 20 years and I'm not sure how I feel about that.
Since the only thing on the DM map you asked about is eyebrows the logical guess would be displacement map. It is the only part of the face that generaly is consdered to need that sort of height. If your using the normal map it is unlikely you would use the displacement as well.
"Merchant resources are intended to save time, but if a product requires hours of experimentation just to overcome a lack of basic documentation, it's not a good value."
Actually it is a huge value compared to what use to come in a character texture resource and very few merchant resource come with something similar to a tutorial that you folks seem to expect. Most will tell you where you can or can not use it but they all pretty much assume that your going to know how to do much of what is necessary to create a character. I think the first one I ever bought came with just the skin and eye textures. Anything else you were expected to be able to create properly yourself. At some point people started selling "seamless" textures which meant that there were not large white gaps along the edge. You still had to clean the seams to make sure that they all matched up properly though. Now things like bump and specularity maps are pretty standard but in many cases the maps are created by gray scaling the texture then inverting it so that the eyebrows are white. That is an awful way to create them by the way as the only things that are going to behave correctly is the eyebrows.
If your serious about using any merchant resource you need to expect to:
Looking at this set the maps are pretty good from the get go. I'd still expect to do adjustments past adding makeup but in general its not in bad shape to use as is. How the final character looks is also strongly driven by settings not just the maps. Every map set is different so in theory every character should have slightly different settings. In other words using someone elses settings for skin may not get you the best results for this skin and you need to try different settings to fine tune how it looks in a render. Fuzzy_Troll indicates an issue with too pale or to red. Redness and sallowness (yellow) can be bled out with the sss reflectance tint. I also am unsure about using the colored sss map without being able to use the sss strength map that goes with it. I suspect that the ideal solution would be to add a slot for an image in SSS amount in order to take advantage of that map but that means mucking about in the mdl shader itself.
"P.S. I have been looking up and doing all kinds of tutorials on IRay textureing and so far none of them say anything about these extra maps and none tell you how to actualy make anything just how to modify old presets."
You need to be looking at how different programs set up for PBR surfaces with humans. People are still getting use to a set up where the base skin texture is not really the driving force behind how the skin turns out in a render. PBR behaves more like real skin and so you have to think about how real skin is and why. Skin has several layers for example. The oily/dead skin outer layer, the epidermis, dermis and then you get into the sss layer of fats and um..meat. Light is unlikely to bounce past that depth and will not bounce around in the bone. Most of the body is not "thin" enough for tranclucens to have much effect. In a perfect world there would be a map that would block most translucence except for places like ears and fingers. But the only way to have that function perfectly would also involve having a solid core for the fingers etc. How all of that looks and reacts to lights is also dramaticaly influenced by the way the light is reflected and broken up by the rought/smooth areas of the body. Also different programs used to generate maps are also potentialy going to create maps that we may or may not choose to use in Studio with Iray the Iray uber shader was created to facilitate ease of conversion and use by the average person.
http://www.3dtotal.com/tutorial/silo/head_modeling_spock_character/character_head_modeling_spock_03.php Shows some alternate maps to the tradional ones we used before Iray.
Well...I am not sure why i put quotation marks around your name I must have been thinking of another part of the post and did it by accedent. I'm in no way new to texturing in the past i have even created my own. I never said i wanted a huge explination of everything in the resource pack. I just wanted to know where those went because they wern't named in a way that i could figure it out, and they arn't the usuial maps i am use to. As for the tutorial you posted doesnt even utilize any of the maps i am asking about, it is an interesting one. I can and plan on modifying the resources myself.
Have a good day!
I did go looking for a guide, wasn't surprised to not find one.
Regardless of whether I know where all these maps go - i am thrilled beyond pieces that someone actually included subdermal, spec, bump, and normal maps in a Skin MR. And these aren't just desaturated/filtered versions of diffuse. Some effort went into this product. I have tons of MRs and this is by far the most 'complete kit'.
It might take some time to sort out whats useful and how which maps interact in what channels, but its not a punishment to learn something new.
I've got an AoA Shader going right now just using diffuse,normal,specular,subdermal,& SSS strength and it looks really good so far. Haven't tried the glossiness maps yet.
I would love to know how you set it up and where you plugged in the Subdermal and sss strength i looked under sss and none of the things there have a place for an image I so want to learn how to best utilize this amazeing package.
It's still a WIP but I got stunning results with the following settings: (map name / channel / str )
regular diffuse in diffuse (50%)
roughness in bump (55% -0.05/.05)
glossiness in specular strength channel #1 (100%) ( specular maps were ugly looking... idk) Specular 2 - no maps - 20% (advise against this, need mask for brows, minimally )
normal 100%
subdermal in SSS color (white)
SSSWeight in SSS Strength (50%)
Also want to note that I used layered image editor for face and added the _DM ( displacement map ) as a mask for removing specular and SSS effects from brows on the face surface.
Great to know! off i go to play around. can't wait to get the most out of this great product!
Thanks Vex3d!
After thinking on it for a while i decided instead of going streight to iray i would set up the stuff i knew then convert it to an iray. So taking what i read from Vex3d i set it all up. liked how it looked then converted it to an Iray setup then plugged in the maps specific to iray. this is how it came out (i messed up the eyes somewhere). This is on default Genesis 3 Female.
They are meant to make maps not to be directly plugged into a shader.
Some of them are made to be plugged directly into a shader, some don't seem to have a place in DazStudio.
Rendered on Base resolution because my rig is slower than a turtle stuck in cold molasses.
left: My final version of shaders for Xtreme maps ( used maps are still 100% unaltered )
right: 3delight V7 materials and shaders
Vex3d very lovely! I find it amazeing how we used the same product but both our renders are so diffrent. yours look so tan and mine is so fare.
Almost... the SSS layers, where the majority of absorption and scattering takes place, are in fact the epidermis and the dermis. The layer of fats, aka subcutis or hypodermis, is more responsible for reflecting light back to where it came from, the skin surface, due to it's high refraction index of around 1.7.
The way light passes through skin, is by first approaching the sebum layer (oily film). Due to the difference between the low refraction index of air (about 1.0003) and it's of around 1.5, about 4% to 7% is reflected back, and the remainder enters the stratum corneum (a layer made up by dead skin cells), where it's being absorbed and scattered for the first time by degraded melanosomes (pigment cells). From there it travels to the relatively bloodless epidermis, where it's absorbed and scattered even more by the there resident melanin pigments. After that it "meets" the bloody dermis, where it is being absorbed and scattered by blood's hemoglobin. Then it encounters the fat "bouncer" subcutis, which tells it "to p... off" (inappropriate dress?) and then it's dermis, epidermis, stratum corneum and sebum again. Skin's somewhat like a high-class VIP dance club and a mass of ordinary people keen to get in. Poor light got so far and gone through so much, and then it's not allowed to enter.
Agree, either sss reflectance tint... or try another red color for the translucency. I'm currently going with a RGB 180, 65, 65, which is more closer to the "real-life" color of an arterial/veneral blood-mix and has some green and blue color values in it to tune the red. If skin's too pale, than raise the Translucency Weight a bit. If you want pale, lower it. 0.2 / 0.3 is waht I use on pale people.
I don't own this product (yet), and though I don't know how this map looks like, but this colored sss map sounds really interesting. I could only guess, but to me it sounds like, that this is maybe meant to be used in the "Transmitted Color" slot.
Transmitted Color isn't really a color that's straight visible in the final render, it's in fact sort of a variable within the equation to calculate the absorption coefficient: In an easy term, this the probability of an energy loss for our little photon and a change in it's wavelength. And this changed wavelength is what we finally see in the render. Well, sort of.
Since skin has a different thickness and composition and melanin concentration, depending on it's location on the body, gender, age, (day of the month, phase of the moon, and if the Giants won the Superbowl... kidding!
) and the heritance (caucasian, asian, african), the absorption coefficent varies much. If this map would try to simulate that, it really would be a cool and clever thing, and all one needs to know would be the correct value for the Transmitted Measurement Distance it's been made for. I guess that thing sadly isn't on one of the promo pictures?
The problem with this is, 3Delight and Iray handle things too much differently, It's like apples and bananas. The only thing they have in common is, that both are fruit... and then the problems begin. Iray needs completely different material values and also actually differently made up textures. IMO the best way to make up materials for Iray properly, is to unforget the way things were done for 3Delight, and better learn from scratch how things work in a PBR like Iray.
Here's what I know and guess -> (?) , where those things belong to ("PBR Specular/Glossiness" Mix):
Nails Transparency Map -> Geometry / Cutout = Cutout Opacity
Texture Map -> Base / Diffuse / Reflection = Base Color
Bump Map -> Base / Bump = Base Bump
Epidermal Map -> Base / Diffuse / Translucency = Translucency Weight (?)
Glossiness Map -> Base / Glossy / Reflection = Glossy Specular
-> Top Coat / General = Top Coat Glossiness
Height Map -> Top Coat / Bump = Top Coat Bump
or -> Geometry / Displacement = Displacement Strength (?)
Metallic Map -> Base / Diffuse / Reflection = Metallicity
Normal Map -> Base / Bump = Normal Map
Roughness Map -> Base / Glossy / Reflection = Glossiness
Specular Map -> Base / Glossy / Reflection = Glossy Color
-> Top Coat / General = Top Coat Color
SSS Weight Map -> Volume / Transmission = Transmitted Color (?)
Sub-dermal Map -> Base / Diffuse / Translucency = Translucency Color (?)
If the Sub-dermal Map is that grayscale Texture Map in the promos, it's most likely the "mask" for the Translucency Color slot. If this map set is even made up with a three-layer-shader solution in mind, yet to be published, the Epidermal Map could also be thought for the layer that will take the "Metallic Flakes" layers place.
Great Advice Arnold C. I will definatly try out your suggestions. I cant wait to see how it turns out ^_^
Thank you
" Almost..."
Super explanation! I was thinking that past the fat and meaty bits it was going to be pretty much fully blocked by bone like translucence is in the hand. It sounds like it is pretty much bounced out before that.
One thing I really like about this set is that it does come with some maps that I've not seen used before. If nothing else putting them in slots to see what happens has told me a fair bit about what really is going on with this or that setting. I'm not sure I would have thought to try some alternate mapping other wise.
Great post, Arnold! Good information. Thanks you.
You're welcome Fuzzy, and thank you, Khory.
Yes, I was surprised, too, what we're really made of and how skin interacts with light and what happens not so deep down there.
Uh, I sadly forgot to name the sources I mostly got those information from (if some of you are maybe interested in further reading):
Zorica GAJINOV, Milan MATIĆ, Sonja PRĆIĆ, Verica ĐURAN: "Optical properties of the human skin", Serbian Journal of Dermatology and Venereology 2010; 2 (4): 131-136, DOI: 10.2478/v10249-011-0029-5
Takanori Igarashi, Ko Nishino, and Shree K. Nayar: "The Appearance of Human Skin", Technical Report: CUCS-024-05, Department of Computer Science, Columbia University.
Both are publically available and IMO even for a non-native english reader like me easy to understand. Well, except the weird math formulas here and there... but there aren't that much. And before you ask: yep, I started reading this stuff shortly after the Iradium Beta was released... and that cursed MDL Handbook and Manual
But even in my youth I was interested in scientific stuff, although I wish I had to put more attention to the lectures in school when it came to "optics". 
Yes, some of those map I haven't seen before, too. And one thing that still confuses me a bit, is that PBR Specular Maps have to go into the Glossy Color slot and PBR Glossmaps into the Glossy Specular slot. I argue, that those who invented physically based rendering only wanted to drive us nuts.
BTW, am I right that you're identical with this Khory? If so, I want to say a thank you for your creations. The M4/Genesis 19th Centurey Uniform is great, and the Maiden Fair Gown still on of my favourites, although I have some problems, since I only keep V4 only for morph transfer purposes, to get Vicky 6 instead into that. She tends to resist somewhat. 
What I like most on your dresses, is that you seem to refuse to let your inspiration come out of a... well, let's name it "adult shop stuff catalogue". That's seldom. 
Thank you, Cris. I hope that to understand how things work in reality will help to improve the results we'll get out of that new renderer. As I see in your sig you belong to the forum staff. May I ask you for a favour? I have a posting over at "Nuts N Bolts" which seems to get overrun by all the other postings there and may not have been noticed yet. The thing behind that is, that I currently working on a method to calculate and set the values for skin based on real-world measurements. It's almost done, all what remains would be to know in which way the logarhythm for the Transmitted Color is calculated. Currently I have two approaches, a simple one with the average of the RGB's summed up, and a complex one, where the absorption coefficients are calculated for each color seperately. The question about the Measurement Distance is almost already answered. If the values for the new Generation 7 shaders are even loosely based on real-world data, then they are still in meters of world space, as annotated in the MDL documentation. The scattering coefficient for that shader is very close to what I get out of my calculations (even if a tad high for a medium pigmented skin), but the absorption one is a bit, at the average about six times, lower than even for a low pigmented skin. I already gathered a set of data for each a low, medium and high pigmented skin, and I think it could be helpful to have a seperate set of data for each skin tone, than always using one and the same.
It would be really nice and helpful if someone with knowledge may could have a look at it. If the information would include some confidential buisiness secret, I'd totally understand that.
Thank you
"BTW, am I right that you're identical with this Khory? If so, I want to say a thank you for your creations. The M4/Genesis 19th Centurey Uniform is great, and the Maiden Fair Gown still on of my favourites, although I have some problems, since I only keep V4 only for morph transfer purposes, to get Vicky 6 instead into that. She tends to resist somewhat."
That would be me. I can't take much credit for the uniform as all I did was the texture on those. I've always been proud of the maiden fair gown. I pulled all the references to give to Martin to design from and I have a love for the sort of art that dress lends itself to. The trick with the older clothing is scaling the figure to fit the clothes. If I remember that means making V6 slightly larger so that she fits the clothing better. You also want to move her arms slightly so that they are more inside the dress. I know changing the girl to fit the dress is slightly odd but it is the path of least resistance for me. My inspiration is almost always old school sexy rather than new school sexy. That doesn't mean that I like the idea of skimping on sexuality as far as women's clothing go. I just think that the movie looks from the 30's are as sexy (short satin tap pants and halter tops anyone?) as some of todays clothing.
Math.. why do they keep putting math in my art? If its not light and color behavior its skin bouncing light in it.. and procedural materials? Anyone who ever thought art should be an easy A really never understood what art is.
Sexy? Yup, but that's because I find women sexy; dress her in a bin bag and she's still sexy; clothes, makeup and other meand used to emphasise or alter don't do anything on a figure of the wrong basic shape: ergo female. I like both skinny and voluptuous, as long as they aren't fat.
and Agree, my thanks to Arnold C to writing this; I still feel basic info - where to plug the textures - is the job of the PA. People learn by experimentation, but a guide on where to start is a good thing for those of us less experienced. After all, deciding if I will buy future products, not just in this line, but from the vendor may be influenced by their reaction to posts and customer (yes customer) feedback.
What would a mesh, even a good one, be without a good texture?
You have all right to be. Simple, but elegant the same time; the Ruby Velvet is my all time favorite, for it's color and pattern. That's how I'd imagine King Arthur's Guinevere or Tristan's Isolde.
Thanks a lot for the advice, I'll try that. Changing the girl to fit the dress is really an odd concept... which I wouldn't try at home.
30's look sounds great, I like that. Not on me though... that would look too ridiculous. But on the right person... always.
You watch the girl as she plans her wedding, and the day gets nearer; she seems pretty damned dertermined to fit in a dress way too small for her. So yeh, she changes the girl (herself) to fit the dress. :D
Even young girls, young women and men get in on the act.
You laugh.
I witnessed more than once when "a girl tried to change herself to fit in a dress". 
Not to be able to eat what you want when you want wouldn't be a deal that big, but at week ten there will come the vagaries...
Sure, "Mexico" could be a way out.