way for smoothing weight map about many bones (snake) at once? (solved!)

kitakoredazkitakoredaz Posts: 3,526
edited March 2015 in Daz Studio Discussion

Hi, I know, we can rig in daz studio for triax or general weight figure in daz studio.

but if hope to rig for long snake, (it has 50 or 100 bones), and smooooooth transition,,(rotation)
Should I need to smooth weight map for each bone section?

I know, if the "snake obj" have vertex group (face group)
I can use Figure set up tool, then auto generate bones with correct axis,
then color weight for all bones by selection group.
and I know there is options for adjust weight color for selected faces.

But is there easy quick way, to color smooth weight for simple figure (like a snake)?
it just need uniformaly smooth weight (each bone length are almost equal )

Or I may need to smooth each bone weight and section, one by one ,,,
select one bone, decide one rotation, then select face group , narrow selection,
smooth weight etc, , up to all bone099?:

Post edited by kitakoredaz on

Comments

  • mjc1016mjc1016 Posts: 15,001
    edited December 1969

    My first question would be...does it really NEED that many bones?

  • kitakoredazkitakoredaz Posts: 3,526
    edited December 1969

    Yes yes, good question. :)
    I really tell you all detail why I need for , if you know the answer.:)

    But I dont need to ask how many bonesfor the snake or tube or octopas or erectric codes or my ear phone codes.

    I just serch and want to know more easy quick way for daz studio weight map, about these case, if it have already.

    chain is ok no problem. these structure need not smooth weight for joint parts.

    I can make easy these type meshes with bone structure in blender or other aprication , (though I don t know, other aprication well )
    then hope to export it daz studio. I tested with collada export, but seems not work.

    I do not think FBX can export bones to daz studio correctly (from blender).
    then If there is no simply quick way,I may plan more low counts rings.
    but not hope color weight smooth about all section, one by one. (it seems almost same step.. )

    if there is auto generator, or smooth weight for all section at once, I may buy it.
    (and I think, it can be ,, I may better to send request ,daz?)
    then do you know the easy way?

  • mjc1016mjc1016 Posts: 15,001
    edited December 1969

    The last time I rigged anything like a snake, I couldn't find an easy way of doing everything at once...it was one at a time. That's why I asked if it needed all the bones.

    I wish there was a way to get the rigged mesh from Blender into DAZ, reliably.

    There was a set of import/export scripts that worked to create Poser format (cr2/pp2) rigged figures, but they haven't been updated in quite a while and don't work in the more recent builds of Blender (2.49 is the last one I know they worked in). But then you are still going to have to convert it over to a weight mapped figure...

  • MythmakerMythmaker Posts: 606
    edited March 2015


    Should I need to smooth weight map for each bone section?

    I was thinking about that too. It feels kinda crazy to go through tedious repetitions, if you just want to do pretty simple rig with an average smooth for all joints. Maybe "Normalize weight" is for that? Haha so I hope.

    I also remain confused by TriAx vs Legacy weight-mapping...even after going through many tutorials and bought Dreamlight's rigging tutorial last week, which didn't answer some key basic questions, like...

    Can we rig conforming clothing using general weight map for Genesis? Or does everything to be auto-fitted to Genesis has to be TriAx?

    On that note, I may as well also ask weight mapping related questions here instead of starting another thread...

    I want to dress and animate Genesis in Carrara. Does DS Rigidity map or Follow Node transfer over to Carrara?

    I'm trying to make a Genesis conforming clothing item consisting of separate subgroup of meshes, using a single figure/ skeleton. But can't find any workflow info on importing obj/ fbx with subgroups for rigging to Genesis. The idea is to keep the meshes separate for different Carrara modifiers. Possible to rig a grouped object in DS or I'm just being silly?

    Thanks for any help...

    Post edited by Mythmaker on
  • SickleYieldSickleYield Posts: 7,327
    edited March 2015

    Very easy actually! And I feel nothing ever has "too many" bones (as you can see by my store). There is only the right amount to bend smoothly, or not the right amount.

    Select all of the bones you want smoothed in the scene tab (right-click on the parent of the chain and select children should do it, otherwise lots of ctrl click or shift click). You'll usually need to start below the root node because the root node is for parenting and has no weight maps.

    With the node weight map brush tool on (alt shift w is the default, or you can access it from Tools), right-click in the 3d window and choose Geometry Selection-Select All.

    Now go to the Tool Settings tab. If you don't have one you can get one in Windows-Panes(Tabs)--Tool, or right-click in the tabs area where you want it and a dialog will appear.

    Click on X Rotation, the first option, to highlight it. Go back to the 3d window. Right-click and choose Weight Editing--Smooth Selected.

    Now the Smooth dialog pops up. How much you need to smooth varies from project to project and you might have to try a couple of times to get the right setting (it won't be retained unless you save the figure to library, so you can delete and reload if it's not right on first test).

    When you click accept it will smooth across all selected bones and faces. This can take a bit with a larger number of bones. (The Mother Beast from Singers of Chzor took about ten minutes per rotation! But that was an extreme case with 2000+ bones.)

    When it's finished, repeat for the Y and Z rotations.

    Now, BEFORE YOU POSE IT AT ALL, right-click and choose memorize-memorize figure rigging. DO NOT move any bones before you do this.

    Now you can test it for smooth bending across groups, and save to library if you are ready. Remember that you can select, pose and test smaller groups of bones very easily using these techniques:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sCcRR0mHZkw

    Post edited by SickleYield on
  • kitakoredazkitakoredaz Posts: 3,526
    edited December 1969

    >mjc1016
    Hi, yes I must need at least more than 20 bones. (though I simply write large number to make my question clear)
    (because some user may say, you can manually smooth weight with selection part etc)

    Actually there are many case, which I hope to set smooth weight for simple structure but made by many rigs.

    And as same as you, when I make some chains and chain weapons set, there seems not easy way
    to smooth each selection part at once.
    If I change it to ther rope etc,, (fill weight by selection set is useful, but it can not controll smooth band area)

    I learned If I make figure with many rigs at first, it is easy to divide and make new short figures from it.
    but if I make figure with some rigs at first, t is difficult to change it more long with relavant count rigs.
    roll:

    did you play with merge figure etc already? if you set "fit to" bones correctly,
    you can copy one rigs figure (mady be 10 bones) , change bones name, and merge them.
    it can generate new long figure with 20 bones.

    (but the joint area mesh not merge actually, I need to remove double verts in other aprication.
    and set node name for "fit to" node , arrange positons is not so simple process.
    so that I do not think "merge figure" is good way for such purpose.
    it is good to change only head part rigs, and generate new figure from same base rigs.

    >Mythmaker
    Hi. yes yes.
    I have thought same thing and wait daz team offer new weight map tools (or vendor plug in for weigth map)
    unfortunately (and I think you know it ^^;) normalize weight simply change all weight count to 1.0
    eg about vertex 1, which assigend for three bones (bone1 bone2 bone3)
    the sums olf weight set to 1.

    usually you may better check this option when you color triax weight.

    As for me, I am ds only user, and when I start ds, daz offer DSON (jason format) files with triax weight figure,
    then I do not hope to make figure with legacy weight mapping.(though about many case, it is more simple, I think)
    (not hope to save figure as cr2, though I tested iwith simple case , I do not hope to use it)

    And there seems new mix option with general weight and triax weight,
    but it simply confused me too ^^; I do not know, the general weight figure can save as figure.dsf in data.
    maybe It can work..

    when I tested mix and general weight I ,did not think it is stable with weight map tools options.
    I may tested them again.

    But usually, when I need general weight, fill weight by selection set.
    and simply copy and paste wight for y ,z , scale.

    if you hope to animate genesis in carrara,You must better to ask it in carrara forum^^
    (because, there are not many ds user who really understand both aprication rig system)

    but I think, carara can not transfer rigidity map,buldge map. thought it can color triax weight already for three axis.
    about rigidity Follow Node ,I think there is more smart way in carara?
    (but we can not export follow node to carrara as duf) scene etc

    then,,

    consisting of separate subgroup of meshes, using a single figure/ skeleton. But can’t find any workflow info on importing obj/ fbx with subgroups for rigging to Genesis. Can it even be done?

    it is deped on which aprication you use to export .
    the sub -grooup means, the obj consits from individual objs? then objs made some groups?
    or sub group measn, face group (vertex group) in one ob?

    if it is blender,
    there is option to export obj as obj groups .but when I import it , I have never seen ds keep object group name.
    Ds load objs as one obj with individual obj named vertex groups .

    usually I set vertex group for each obj (even though I need only one vertex group for each obj) at first.
    then join it as one obj. it can keep each vertex group. after that I gather or delete to adjust vertex group
    as same as obj groups which I planed for each section.

    after that, I export it for ds. (yes it is really important to rig and weight easy:roll:)

    then to make clothing for genesis etc ,, if you show more deatil there are already many professional user
    for your case I believe ^^

  • kitakoredazkitakoredaz Posts: 3,526
    edited December 1969

    >SickleYield

    really @@;?
    I did not think I can color or smooth weight at once with selected bones before.
    it is updated ? or ds can smooth weight for selected node at once as same as before,
    I only do not try it and may keep foolish untill I die?%-P

    anyway,, I must try it.. thank you much.

    (yes yes yes,, I know you offer many figures which I really hope to buy ^^;
    )

    I often think, it may be better just to buy sickleyard items, then modify it if I need .

    but sometimes I really want to make them by my self only from scratch then try them, with my favorite blender .
    though I can not achieve good qualtiy as same as your vendors.
    you know,,render scene which use items made by myself feel happy ^^

  • SickleYieldSickleYield Posts: 7,327
    edited December 1969

    Making your own things is always best, then you get just what you want. ;)

    Blender can export vertex groups, but you have to have the Polygroups option checked in the export dialog. And then DS can only use them if you rig from the Figure Setup tab.

  • HellboyHellboy Posts: 1,246
    edited December 1969

    Very easy actually! And I feel nothing ever has "too many" bones (as you can see by my store). There is only the right amount to bend smoothly, or not the right amount.

    Select all of the bones you want smoothed in the scene tab (right-click on the parent of the chain and select children should do it, otherwise lots of ctrl click or shift click). You'll usually need to start below the root node because the root node is for parenting and has no weight maps.

    With the node weight map brush tool on (alt shift w is the default, or you can access it from Tools), right-click in the 3d window and choose Geometry Selection-Select All.

    Now go to the Tool Settings tab. If you don't have one you can get one in Windows-Panes(Tabs)--Tool, or right-click in the tabs area where you want it and a dialog will appear.

    Click on X Rotation, the first option, to highlight it. Go back to the 3d window. Right-click and choose Weight Editing--Smooth Selected.

    Now the Smooth dialog pops up. How much you need to smooth varies from project to project and you might have to try a couple of times to get the right setting (it won't be retained unless you save the figure to library, so you can delete and reload if it's not right on first test).

    When you click accept it will smooth across all selected bones and faces. This can take a bit with a larger number of bones. (The Mother Beast from Singers of Chzor took about ten minutes per rotation! But that was an extreme case with 2000+ bones.)

    When it's finished, repeat for the Y and Z rotations.

    Now, BEFORE YOU POSE IT AT ALL, right-click and choose memorize-memorize figure rigging. DO NOT move any bones before you do this.

    Now you can test it for smooth bending across groups, and save to library if you are ready. Remember that you can select, pose and test smaller groups of bones very easily using these techniques:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sCcRR0mHZkw


    This is awesome info!! Thanks!!!

  • SickleYieldSickleYield Posts: 7,327
    edited December 1969

    Hellboy said:
    Very easy actually! And I feel nothing ever has "too many" bones (as you can see by my store). There is only the right amount to bend smoothly, or not the right amount.

    Select all of the bones you want smoothed in the scene tab (right-click on the parent of the chain and select children should do it, otherwise lots of ctrl click or shift click). You'll usually need to start below the root node because the root node is for parenting and has no weight maps.

    With the node weight map brush tool on (alt shift w is the default, or you can access it from Tools), right-click in the 3d window and choose Geometry Selection-Select All.

    Now go to the Tool Settings tab. If you don't have one you can get one in Windows-Panes(Tabs)--Tool, or right-click in the tabs area where you want it and a dialog will appear.

    Click on X Rotation, the first option, to highlight it. Go back to the 3d window. Right-click and choose Weight Editing--Smooth Selected.

    Now the Smooth dialog pops up. How much you need to smooth varies from project to project and you might have to try a couple of times to get the right setting (it won't be retained unless you save the figure to library, so you can delete and reload if it's not right on first test).

    When you click accept it will smooth across all selected bones and faces. This can take a bit with a larger number of bones. (The Mother Beast from Singers of Chzor took about ten minutes per rotation! But that was an extreme case with 2000+ bones.)

    When it's finished, repeat for the Y and Z rotations.

    Now, BEFORE YOU POSE IT AT ALL, right-click and choose memorize-memorize figure rigging. DO NOT move any bones before you do this.

    Now you can test it for smooth bending across groups, and save to library if you are ready. Remember that you can select, pose and test smaller groups of bones very easily using these techniques:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sCcRR0mHZkw


    This is awesome info!! Thanks!!!

    You're welcome! I've posted all this on these forums before, when I was first learning the methods, but nobody really noticed and it fell down the list. I still plan to do a tutorial for it sometime on my blog or YouTube (when my voice comes back).

  • mjc1016mjc1016 Posts: 15,001
    edited December 1969

    You're welcome! I've posted all this on these forums before, when I was first learning the methods, but nobody really noticed and it fell down the list. I still plan to do a tutorial for it sometime on my blog or YouTube (when my voice comes back).

    Cut/...paste...print...glue to wall above monitor...

  • MythmakerMythmaker Posts: 606
    edited March 2015


    >Mythmaker
    Hi. yes yes.
    I have thought same thing and wait daz team offer new weight map tools (or vendor plug in for weigth map)

    More efficient weight map tool will be nice. I saw a Poser 2014 video, looks like they can paint all the different weights (bone, rigidity, soft body physics) all at once! So convenient and intuitive!

    I think the "global smooth" thing we like to have is just another one click thing, like global fill weight anyway. If we have Macros in DS then it will be the first custom button I make. Copy paste weight is the second button.

    But yes, the more I learn about rigging the more I find weight mapping is unnecessary fiddly in DS so a more streamlined plugin would be nice. Maybe SickleYield can design it! :)


    unfortunately (and I think you know it ^^;) normalize weight simply change all weight count to 1.0
    eg about vertex 1, which assigend for three bones (bone1 bone2 bone3)
    the sums olf weight set to 1.

    usually you may better check this option when you color triax weight.

    Okay I didn't know this. But now I know, kind of. Eventually I will connect more dots in this labyrinth. And vertices too. lol.

    Normalize sounds like "average-out" haha, like in audio mixing.

    As for me, I am ds only user, and when I start ds, daz offer DSON (jason format) files with triax weight figure,
    then I do not hope to make figure with legacy weight mapping.(though about many case, it is more simple, I think)
    (not hope to save figure as cr2, though I tested iwith simple case , I do not hope to use it)

    And there seems new mix option with general weight and triax weight,
    but it simply confused me too ^^; I do not know, the general weight figure can save as figure.dsf in data.
    maybe It can work..

    I left around DS 4.5, came back at 4.7, so lots of new/ changed features in DS rigging. And as usual so much noise to sieve through to find real info. Thanks for being kind and helpful like ever. I keep bumping into DS veterans and CG experts getting confused by DS rigging language. Now I feel less like an idiot. :)


    but I think, carara can not transfer rigidity map,buldge map. thought it can color triax weight already for three axis.
    about rigidity Follow Node ,I think there is more smart way in carara?
    (but we can not export follow node to carrara as duf) scene etc

    Good to know that, even if it's somewhat disappointing too. Guess now I can spare my brain energy and forget about bulge or rigid whatnot. TriAx is notorious for export to other apps anyway. If I can auto-fit Legacy/ General weight clothing onto Genesis in Carrara, I will go yeepee hurray.


    then,,
    consisting of separate subgroup of meshes, using a single figure/ skeleton. But can’t find any workflow info on importing obj/ fbx with subgroups for rigging to Genesis. Can it even be done?

    it is deped on which aprication you use to export .

    Wow thanks for the indepth feedback.

    Sorry I wasn't clear enough. I just want to *rig a custom bodysuit model while retaining the separateness of its multiple polymeshes*.
    The purpose: when I autofit the bodysuit to Genesis in Carrara, I can have one main vertex object with many mesh siblings. I'm learning soft body physics in Carrara, need to apply different modifier to each "sibling" mesh.

    It's probably not possible anyway. I can't find any tutorials that teach you how to rig a parent obj containing multiple sibling objs in DS. Even Genesis is a single vertex object with no group parent or siblings.

    I won't hijack your thread any further, will try the Carrara area. Thanks again for your kindness.

    Post edited by Mythmaker on
  • kitakoredazkitakoredaz Posts: 3,526
    edited December 1969

    Hi thanks all :-)

    It actually saved my time many.
    I will not hesitate to increase rig coutns for such purops anymore..

    sickleyard many many thanks.

    to be honest,, I believed you must know the way clear (and hoped if you come this topic,,@@;,)
    because you actually offered such items already.

    I did not think you smooth weight one by one for each node.

    when I use weight map tool, it show curernt last selected bone name in tool.
    even though I select multiple node.

    then I thought , I could not smooth multiple selected node weightl at once
    and never tested it ^^;

    Mythmaker
    thanks many info.
    other question help me lot in same topic. I have tested ds tools many already.
    but think there should be option which I have not understand clear like this smoot weight ^^;
    unfortunately I have not played many with carrara. if carrara physics simulation more better than blender,
    I may try . :)

  • SickleYieldSickleYield Posts: 7,327
    edited December 1969

    You are very welcome!

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