Genesis and Genesis 2 and Carrara 8.5 Questions

AntaraAntara Posts: 444
edited December 1969 in Carrara Discussion

I am sure it's been asked, but the forum search is either broken, or I am not searching for the right terms, because I keep getting no results...

So, the whole point of Carrara 8.5 is to make Genesis (and Genesis 2?) usable, correct?

Here are a few questions I have about it:

1) - Do HD morphs work in Carrara? (Are there hoops to jump to make them work, or is it just not possible at all?)
2) - Is it possible to create new morphs for the figures using Carrara
2a) - for Genesis
2b) - for Genesis 2
2c) - How is it done? Is it added the usual way as for generation 4, for example (new morph target in existing morph are, etc.). That did not seem to work for me, but maybe there is a step I skipped? Would it be possible to load the obj, morph, save as new morph and lead it as a target instead?
3) - Is the DAZ import as buggy as ever, or has it been fixed, and there is just some sort of special procedure to go about it? (I can't get it to work, though) If it can be done, then what is the exact sequence of steps to do it? Also, is it possible to do setup in DS and then transfer it all to Carrara to add Carrara-specific elements, use Carrara shaders and renderer?
4) - what are the known Genesis (and Genesis 2) issues in Carrara and are there workarounds for them? There used to be a bug report database, but it's no longer public, so there is no way to see what's to expect.
5) I also seem to remember some comprehensive threads about general Carrara topics, but they are no longer at the forum top, do they still exist somewhere? Does anyone have direct links? (search does not work for me at all it seems)

Sorry for what must be repetitive questions. If you have links to topics where these are covered, I'd be very grateful for those.
Thank you!

Comments

  • AntaraAntara Posts: 444
    edited December 1969

    Thank you for the links, rk!

    Any insights on creating new morphs for Genesis figures?

    About known issues: I know for a fact that that list is incomplete, so I was hoping that somewhere there is a fuller list, maybe one specific to Genesis issues.

  • DartanbeckDartanbeck Posts: 13,976
    edited December 1969

    DAZ 3D has some great instructions regarding morph creation on Genesis here, and here are some early videos back when they were first releasing a beta of Genesis (then called "Unimesh"), but they can be helpful in doing this stuff.
    All of these, however, are geared towards using DAZ Studio Pro so that it ends up actually being part of Genesis as a system, not just a personal use sort of thing.

    Morph Loader Pro
    How to import obj morphs using Morph Loader Pro

    Content Creation Tools Playlist
    Making conforming clothes, adding correction morphs for FBM (full Body Morphs) and JCM (Joint Controlled Morphs)

    And Carrara works great for modeling this stuff.

  • AntaraAntara Posts: 444
    edited December 1969

    Thank you, Dartanbeck! You are most helpful, as always!
    This answers a bunch of my questions, but it turns out, I have more:

    In DS Genesis can switch between UV sets. Is it possible to do in Carrara? (Beta didn't have this option, but does the release version have it?) And if not, then which character do I need to load (and how exactly) in order to get the UV compatibility I intend to use? Is there a table of this somewhere?

    Thank you again!

  • rk66rk66 Posts: 313
    edited December 1969
  • AntaraAntara Posts: 444
    edited December 1969

    Thank you for the link, rk!

    However, now I am confused... So if I use the dufs, it will automatically switch the UV set?

  • DartanbeckDartanbeck Posts: 13,976
    edited December 1969

    We don't (at least not yet) have the ability to swap UVs in Carrara. So we have to load in the figure or character of the figure that has the appropriate UVs set already.

    So the popular way to set up characters is to create them in DAZ Studio and save them as a new Character asset in the library, so that you have access to them in Carrara 8.5

    The other option is to load into Carrara the appropriate character file, and morph that one.

    For example, I have tweaked some of the maps for Girl 6 that I like to use. But if I load in Genesis 2 Female and apply the textures I've made for G6, they don't map correctly.

    So what I have to do is to load in The Girl 6 right from the start. That way I'm using the right UV mapping.

    But from there, I can turn off the Girl 6 morphs, and the textures stay put, where they belong. But the UV set still works well with my character, due to the shapes that I end up using are quite similar to those of G6.

    So with Genesis 1, we have all of those monsters and people... just keep in mind that you need to load in the character that contains the textures that you want to use first, and then start working with shapes, and you'll be fine.

    I haven't actually designed any of my characters in DS first. I made them all within Carrara.

    For Genesis 1:
    Basic Female = UVs for V4
    Basic Male = UVs for M4
    Basic Kid = UVs for Kids4

    Aside from those, just load in the character V5 for use with textures made for V5, etc.,
    Hope this helps you out... it becomes much easier to understand, and get used to, the more you do it.

  • AntaraAntara Posts: 444
    edited December 1969

    Thank you, I got it now. More or less.

    How cross-changeable are the UV's for all the Genesis characters?

    Do V5 textures have the same UV's as M5?

    If not, do M5, D5, J5(Teen) and F5 have the same UV set? What about V5, Girl5, S5, J5 (Teen)?

  • DartanbeckDartanbeck Posts: 13,976
    edited December 1969

    That I don't know... but I doubt that any of them are so similar as to work like that. You'd likely get issues.

  • AntaraAntara Posts: 444
    edited April 2014

    Do you know whom I could ask to find this out?

    ...But it would be nice to have a Carrara-specific compatibility matrix in the documentation. Like we have for DS...

    Also, do you know what is the UV-character pairing for Genesis 2?

    And is there a way to have Genesis 2 work with V4/M4 maps in Carrara?

    Post edited by Antara on
  • DartanbeckDartanbeck Posts: 13,976
    edited December 1969

    DAZ_Spooky might know... but he's even busier than we are, so it's hard to get an answer out of him ;)

  • 3DAGE3DAGE Posts: 3,275
    edited December 1969

    HI Antara :)

    The answer to all your questions is inside DS

    Load a Figure,. then go to the Shading tab, and see what UV sets you have available for that figure. (see pic)

    You can select the UV set you want,. Add the textures you want,.. then save that as a DUF file and load it into Carrara,
    Or,..
    take a mental note of what figure you had, what UV set it used, and what textures you want to apply,... and load all of that in carrara.

    ;)

    DSUV_sets.jpg
    1680 x 1050 - 264K
  • AntaraAntara Posts: 444
    edited December 1969

    Thank you, 3DAGE!

    (And I am glad to see you active here!) :)

    The thing is that my normal workflow is a bit different: I like mixing textures to achieve the desired effect. For example, inside Carrara I often use texture from one character for the color, texture from a different one for the bump, from a third one for the highlights, from the fourth as spectacular map, yet from a fifth one for the glow and sometimes yet a different one for the translucency. I also often mix multiple textures for each channel using the mixer or layering options and some pre-made mixing maps, which I created for generation 4 figures.

    So when I ask about UV compatibility, it's mostly with this workflow in mind. I can create my mixer maps for the new UVs, but I need to know which generation 5 & 6 maps can or cannot be mixed. And if I cannot mix most of the map within a generation, then getting different characters is not a worthwhile investment for me - I just need to settle on one DAZ character per generation and only get characters UV-mapped for that one.

    Does anyone know which UV's does Genesis 2 Male base map to? (M5 since G2F base is V5? its own or the ones from Gen4?)

    Thank you again for your help!

  • Wendy_CarraraWendy_Carrara Posts: 18,220
    edited April 2014

    I treat Daz studio as my genesis and genesis 2 character customizer and clother plugin for carrara
    I set up scenes and animate them in carrara but never save them there, just the empty scenes and maybe NLA clips for them as carrara not so good with saving them.
    is fine DS makes a good plugin!

    Post edited by Wendy_Carrara on
  • 3DAGE3DAGE Posts: 3,275
    edited December 1969

    Thanks Antara :)

    Interesting work-flow.

    I'd think that M5 will map best with it's own texture sets, since they are created using the M5 Uv's
    It can handle UV's from other figures, but the UV's or textures you use, depends on the figure you load to work with.

    If you load Genesis male base, (in DS) and look at the Surfaces tab,.. it's default UV is M4

    If you load the Michael 5,. then it's Default UV is M5

    if you wanted to work with M5, but use M4 texture maps to make your own character, then you can change the UV's in DS, and save that (new figure) to the library.

    By loading the figure you want to work with in DS, and going to the surfaces tab, you can quickly see what's available, and change it's Uv's to suit the textures you want to work with.

    :)

  • rk66rk66 Posts: 313
    edited April 2014

    Hi,
    here a little tool, UV Setter for Genesis 2:

    http://www.sharecg.com/v/73633/view/21/DAZ-Studio/UVSetterGen2-Revised

    rk.

    Post edited by rk66 on
  • AntaraAntara Posts: 444
    edited December 1969

    I treat Daz studio as my genesis and genesis 2 character customizer and clother plugin for carrara
    I set up scenes and animate them in carrara but never save them there, just the empty scenes and maybe NLA clips for them as carrara not so good with saving them.
    is fine DS makes a good plugin!

    What do you mean by "never save them [in Carrara]"? Is the saving process messed up in Carrara? it seemed to work for my simple scene. Is there anything I should know/avoid?

    I'll have to re-learn DS :). I haven't used it except for Dynamic clothing in years. By the way, does Dynamic Clothing work in 64-bit? I see it there, but the documentation says it's not supported. Are there some bugs or limitations in 64-bit and that's why it's not officially supported?

    3DAGE said:
    Thanks Antara :)

    Interesting work-flow.

    I'd think that M5 will map best with it's own texture sets, since they are created using the M5 Uv's
    It can handle UV's from other figures, but the UV's or textures you use, depends on the figure you load to work with.
    If you load Genesis male base, (in DS) and look at the Surfaces tab,.. it's default UV is M4
    If you load the Michael 5,. then it's Default UV is M5
    if you wanted to work with M5, but use M4 texture maps to make your own character, then you can change the UV's in DS, and save that (new figure) to the library.

    By loading the figure you want to work with in DS, and going to the surfaces tab, you can quickly see what's available, and change it's Uv's to suit the textures you want to work with.
    :)

    Thanks :)

    I think understand the mapping with Genesis 1. And I guess the UV's are a bit different for all the characters, so they will not combine seamlessly from one character to another. This might be in inconvenience for me. For example: I like the normal maps which come with David 5. But I don't much like the skin maps for him. I like the Vein bump maps which come with Freak 5, but not the normal maps which come with it... But D5 and F5 UV sets are a bit different. I like the skin maps I have for M5 best, but I don't have good normal maps for them... and M5 and D5 don't really combine well at all. Especially in the face and nails, although the torso and limbs are almost identical. So this means that selecting a UV set in DS still wouldn't let me do what I'd like to be able to do which would be to combine D5 normals with M5 skin and F5 veins :). But it also means that I need to choose what is most important for me (say D5 normal maps) and then only get the characters which work with D5 to get the suitable skin, veins and other maps...

    Do you know what Genesis 2 Male base (before Michale 6 or any other character) maps to by default?

    Hi,
    here a little tool, UV Setter for Genesis 2:

    http://www.sharecg.com/v/73633/view/21/DAZ-Studio/UVSetterGen2-Revised

    rk.

    Thank you! Is this the same as selecting the UV set in the surface tab or does it do something else too?

  • DartanbeckDartanbeck Posts: 13,976
    edited December 1969

    Inconvenience? Perhaps.
    But it seems kind of like to want to buy cheerios and have it come with the flavors of Captain Crunch, Raisin Bran, and Special K, depending on what your mood when you pour the bowl! LOL

    Sorry... that was horrible.

    But the fact that DAZ 3D is so scrupulous about UV Maps on the products they sell is a huge convenience to the 3d world. They even give us free access to the templates.

    We have always had to find ways to get different textures on our models. Some of us edit ones that come with the product, others buy many various character presets that come with textures, etc.,

    Genesis being able to swap UVs is actually pretty huge. Changing the shapes of Genesis doesn't change the UV Mapping either - so you CAN use any of the Genesis textures on any of the shapes. The reason for the UV Map swapping is for keeping texture stretch to a minimum. Optimizing the shapes. Since DAZ found out that they could do this for, say, the Troll, they decided to do it for characters as well - which is actually a lot more of a blessing from them than a curse. With clothes on, most of the time we won't even notice the minimal texture stretching that we might get from one human to the next. So... yeah... you could use a Michael 4 texture on a Genesis 1 female character, like Victoria 5, for example. You only need to begin with the appropriate figure that contains the right UVs. In this case, Basic Male. Then apply the Michael 4 textures of choice, and shape the figure to Vicky 5.

    If you need to change shapes and textures within an animation is incredibly powerful using this system, since Genesis 1 has so many UV Map settings for it. Animation files should be kept somewhat short. Do the transformation in shape and textures in one complete animation for the realism of it all. But then the next time you film the character, it can originate from the Genesis that has the actual UV mapping that you've now switched to.

    For many years we've been toiling over our character's appearances. Making, converting, buying new textures. This is not a Genesis issue. Genesis actually helps us.

  • rk66rk66 Posts: 313
    edited December 1969
  • Wendy_CarraraWendy_Carrara Posts: 18,220
    edited December 1969

    you can save them but carrara saves all the morph data etc complete you are looking at 4GB files in some cases
    that might not load
    a .duf from studio is very small referencing all the data textures etc at load.

  • AntaraAntara Posts: 444
    edited December 1969

    Inconvenience? Perhaps.
    But it seems kind of like to want to buy cheerios and have it come with the flavors of Captain Crunch, Raisin Bran, and Special K, depending on what your mood when you pour the bowl! LOL

    Sorry... that was horrible.

    But the fact that DAZ 3D is so scrupulous about UV Maps on the products they sell is a huge convenience to the 3d world. They even give us free access to the templates.

    We have always had to find ways to get different textures on our models. Some of us edit ones that come with the product, others buy many various character presets that come with textures, etc.,

    Genesis being able to swap UVs is actually pretty huge. Changing the shapes of Genesis doesn't change the UV Mapping either - so you CAN use any of the Genesis textures on any of the shapes. The reason for the UV Map swapping is for keeping texture stretch to a minimum. Optimizing the shapes. Since DAZ found out that they could do this for, say, the Troll, they decided to do it for characters as well - which is actually a lot more of a blessing from them than a curse. With clothes on, most of the time we won't even notice the minimal texture stretching that we might get from one human to the next. So... yeah... you could use a Michael 4 texture on a Genesis 1 female character, like Victoria 5, for example. You only need to begin with the appropriate figure that contains the right UVs. In this case, Basic Male. Then apply the Michael 4 textures of choice, and shape the figure to Vicky 5.

    If you need to change shapes and textures within an animation is incredibly powerful using this system, since Genesis 1 has so many UV Map settings for it. Animation files should be kept somewhat short. Do the transformation in shape and textures in one complete animation for the realism of it all. But then the next time you film the character, it can originate from the Genesis that has the actual UV mapping that you've now switched to.

    For many years we've been toiling over our character's appearances. Making, converting, buying new textures. This is not a Genesis issue. Genesis actually helps us.

    Your defence of Genesis is misplaced here. I am not suggesting that being able to work with multiple UV sets in one figure is in any way a bad thing. In fact, the very idea that I can use all of the new Genesis morphs with either the Genesis maps OR my huge library of Gen4 maps is a huge advantage I am well aware of.

    I do, however, wish that at least some of the core Gen5 characters would share UV sets. I can see the logic of wanting the Freak be on a separate UV, but I don't quite see the validation of M5 and D5 having different UVs. Especially after comparing them one on top the other - it's pretty much the same UVs with only slight relative coordinate shifts for the face, nails and ears - but enough to make the textures incompatible and a PITA to manually fix. And the inconvenience I speak of is mostly due to the fact that as of now there aren't many characters created for these UV sets. For example, I am very impressed with D5 normal maps, as I mentioned. They really are exceptionally good. And the reason I want to use the character. But there are only a handful of characters UV-mapped for D5 (total!)... not much of a variety... Now, if D5 were more similar to M5 in the UV set, it wouldn't be an issue (OR if M5 came with a similar quality normal maps). The inconvenience I mentioned is not about the technology of Genesis - that's pretty darn amazing! - it's about the available content.

    No need to go on a crusade here :).

  • AntaraAntara Posts: 444
    edited December 1969

    rk66 said:
    Hi,
    here is the post:

    http://www.daz3d.com/forums/discussion/33957/

    rk.

    Thank you, rk!

    you can save them but carrara saves all the morph data etc complete you are looking at 4GB files in some cases
    that might not load
    a .duf from studio is very small referencing all the data textures etc at load.

    This is interesting, because the basic scene I saved (so far just playing with the core Genesis figure and some morphs/textures for it) was actually less in overall size than my similar scenes with V4. (150-250MB, depending on textures, vs ~500MB average for textured V4).

    Does the issue happen when clothes and animations are added? And if you setup in Carrara, but don't save there, then what are you saving it as?

  • DartanbeckDartanbeck Posts: 13,976
    edited December 1969

    Antara said:

    No need to go on a crusade here :).

    LOL
    I didn't mean it to sound like I was! Ha...
    I just get wordy...

    I can totally see what you mean now, though. Wanting to use normal maps, but those are made for a different UV...
    I can see that being a bit of a bummer. You're just gonna have to take some nudies of yourself and make some D5 texture maps for the community! ;)
    Sorry to sound so vigilant! >:(

  • AntaraAntara Posts: 444
    edited December 1969

    You're just gonna have to take some nudies of yourself and make some D5 texture maps for the community! ;)

    Not gonna help - wrong gender! :)

    But more seriously though, this is one of the things I'd like to be able to search by. One issue - there isn't even David 5 category for the figure matching in the store. Since these characters have distinct UV sets, it would be nice to have the categories list them all, so we'd be able to easily find the characters properly UV'ed for what we need to do.

    And the other issue is that the search in the store does not search "what's included" section of the product information, so there is no way to search for characters which DO have normal maps (or vein maps) included, for example... Try searching for it and you'll see that only a few products which mention "normal maps" in the product description blurb show up.

  • Erik HeyninckErik Heyninck Posts: 0
    edited December 1969

    You say that: "But the fact that DAZ 3D is so scrupulous about UV Maps on the products they sell is a huge convenience to the 3d world. They even give us free access to the templates. "

    Where can I find these templates? All I have are dsf files which I cannot open in Photoshop.

  • AntaraAntara Posts: 444
    edited December 1969

    I have template downloads for the Genesis 2 characters (In my Product History). I do not see templates for Genesis 1, though. So I just went into Runtaime/Textures/DAZ/Characters and opened them up there. Also, I believe Carrara can export UV layouts if you need to generate them. Select "Actor", go to the modelling room, select UV mode and then you can display the UV's shading domain by shading domain and export the view. You can then open them up in Photoshop and combine the ones that need to be combined (like lips, nostrils and face). Having them in separate layers will also give you clear seam delineations for the domains.

  • Erik HeyninckErik Heyninck Posts: 0
    edited December 1969

    You are right. I found the templates in the My Account/Product Library.

    The method to export them from Carrara is in fact even more interesting. I didn't know that.

    Thanks!

  • DartanbeckDartanbeck Posts: 13,976
    edited December 1969

    Sorry... away from my computer.
    For the images you can edit in PhotoShop, go to your DAZ Library folder
    Open Runtime > Textures
    The DAZ figures originals are under DAZ > Characters

  • DartanbeckDartanbeck Posts: 13,976
    edited December 1969

    Wow... no David 5 category... that's a bummer. You should contact customer support about that... maybe they'll fix it?

  • DartanbeckDartanbeck Posts: 13,976
    edited December 1969

    Antara said:
    You're just gonna have to take some nudies of yourself and make some D5 texture maps for the community! ;)

    Not gonna help - wrong gender! :)Okay... right. No help. Sorry.

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