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Hmmm, this is very interesting. I'm also pretty unimpressed with Iray. Its no Octane, thats for sure.
Can anyone tell me if its even possible in Iray to adequately light the interior of a geometric room set with windows using just the Iray sun and dome outside, without having to up the ISO to such levels that it looks like the sun has gone supernova? From my experiments its not possible.
My jury is still out on what I personally think of iray. I like PBR, but its also counterproductive to my general style. So we will see how that pans out.
I will say, however, that since my packs are so sizable, at this point if I do iray materials, they will be sold as add-ons. Actually, an add-on seems to make the most sense to me overall..... as long as there is fitting "chunk" to the set.
Let me state my position as a PA.
I made Poser-compatible products for 14 years, right up until September, when I released Everyday Drinks. Iray was in full swing, and I was faced with a choice - continue to support Poser and its materials, or support 3DL and Iray materials. It's not economically viable for me to produce packs at $9.95 (of which I get half, minus taxes, etc), and support 2 different softwares and 3 sets of materials, so I decided to stop supporting Poser. When I was doing the Drinks pack, I realised early on that I could never acheive the same results in 3DL as I could in Iray, so I released it as Iray only - and it says on the product page " Iray materials only - 3Delight materials not included". I didn't exclude 3DL because I couldn't be bothered. I'd already done the 3DL materials and tested them. I just didn't think the results were good enough. Glass is pretty spectacular in Iray, so the bar was set high.
My next pack, which will be released in a few weeks, is for both 3DL and Iray, and the product description says "Includes Iray-Ready + 3Delight-Ready Props". It has 2 separate folders of props - one with 3DL materials and one with Iray materials. In other words, you can load the props for the render engine you use, and if you only use one or the other, you can delete the folder you don't need. I plan to do all future packs in this way - folders for both 3DL and Iray, with all props ready to load and render, rather than applying materials depending on which renderer you use.
I do think customers should know what they're buying, but I can't speak for other PAs. As someone pointed out earlier, not all PAs read the forums, so they may not even be aware that it's an issue. A blanket rule requiring PAs to state compatibilty on the product page would have to come from DAZ.
mac
I can see doing that if the set or clothing is substantial, as long as the pricing isn't like I'd be buying a completely new product. With many vendors including Iray materials in their products, vendors who don't would have to be realistic on the pricing.(love your stuff!) Hopefully buyers will understand the effort it takes to do separate materials, and not take that for granted.
With all the shaders for Iray coming out, some parts of a scene can be changed over to whatever people want in Iray anyway. I'm glad to see 3DL materials continuing in products, it's nice for artists to have options.
DAZ does recommend to the PA's to include both Iray and 3dl materials for characters, with supporting renders to show each....and many of the active PA's do try to follow this directive. Daz cannot force them to do so, but it is recommended.
I know all my character sets (since iray came out) have had options for both, and have included renders of each version as well. Though I have to add...it is hard to include 3dl renders, because the iray ones look so amazing, that the 3dl renders tend to look much more flat by comparison. It is funny, I used to love how my characters looked in 3dl, and I am still building my materials the same way as before. It is just with a good iray setup, you can get so much more realism in your material settings that it brings the game up to a whole new level.
Rawn
I'd heard that they were fattening!
Once I found physically based materials, it was hard to return to the traditonal way of rendering. :-)
It's not just IRay, although IRay is absolutely wonderful. It's the physically based materials that I like -- and how much fun it is to generate the maps.
On the other hand, I still admire other people's work with 3Delight and the Firefly renderer.
And I apply ctl DZdefault to all of them
choose keep maps
for Octane render or export to other apps
If the promo says just "Rendered in Daz Studio" it's 3Delight, if it says "Rendered in Daz Studio Iray" it's Iray, that's not a guess, it's rule with promos at the Daz store.
I do thank you for this... This is all I think 99% of the people really want, and I really think most people here understand not all PA's read the forums, but enough reps from Daz do, and at least I'm hoping one of then see this.
If this is the "Rule", it's a very poorly worded "Rule". There are just too many Addons to Daz Studios for me to read "Daz Studio" and say 3Delight. It should say 3Delight and not be cryptic. But more importantly, just because something is rendered in Iray for the Promos doesn't mean to me that it "Iray Only"... adding the line "Includes Iray-Ready + 3Delight-Ready Props" or "Iray Only" or "3Delight Only" to the product description is all most want.
Well, the big problem is going to be years and years of products that came out before Iray, that did not specifically say 3Delight, because there was no other Daz Studio option. The exception being for things for LuxRender/Luxus and those were generally really well labeled. I suppose it is possible to go back and label everything in the store pre-Iray as 3Delight, but it wouldn't happen soon. Pretty much the promo labeling rule is all we have that could be implemented quickly.
I do agree though that if a product says it supports more than one render engine, it should have at least one promo showing each one. Many/most active PAs already do this as it is a selling point for a wider target audience.
I've got over 5000 crayons. I'm not giving them up. Violet-blue is the tastiest.
What are you talking about, the best tasting one is "Peach"... At least until they come out with "Cookies and Cream"
This is another reason why the original release date ought to be included in the main blurb text. If a product is identified as having come out in 2014 then we'd know that it predates Iray and that if there is a set of Iray materials, it's an add-on.
It would help identify what generation of figure was current when it was released as well. Although it probably wouldn't be that helpful for identifying what base figures it predated unless someone was really paying attention.
If you get the Sir Robin add on textures these are for both iRay and 3DL. The add-on textures look really good, and are less than 2 dollars.
Oh I totally agree. I wouldnt price it the price of a full set, coz a diff amount of work goes into the models and such. For a texture add-on, I price those way cheaper. Iray add-ons would probably be in line with them price-wise (and prolly even less, coz Im not "remaking textures" Im just doing mats)
But most ppl who include both... are probably padding accordingly, depending on the complexity, of course (to be clear, that doesnt mean everyone does, just that I can see how people would do so - if the set is really big especially) One of the reasons it makes more sense to me to do an add on, is that, rather than pad the base and force ppl to spend extra to get something they may not use, this gives everyone the fair base price and the option to buy the iray add on for ppl who do want to use iray. That being said, if I did something smallish - like Nox Aeterna for exmple, which only has 2 full mats.... I might include the iray straight off the bat... coz its just not sizable enuff to do a whole new add-on.
But yah, I won't abandon 3DL. To me, those are the default textures... and even in some cases, work superiorly to what iray can do (like the glowing stuff in Lady D, for example) Also... Iray, for many, is a toy... one which some may opt against (like in my case - I tend to render stuff more ethereal as opposed to realistic) or some ppl can't even use coz of lack of hardware, etc. I won't cut my customer base that way.
IRay a toy? No, please, don't say that.
PBR is my 3D oxygen.
IRay a toy? No, please, don't say that.
PBR is my 3D oxygen.
LOL Would it help if I said a fun toy?
Srsly tho... Ive noticed for every person that loves it, squeezes it and names it George, theres a person who is less than enthusiastic. I doubt Ill ever solely render out of it, myself.... coz like I said, it doesnt suit my style. But I will def play with it from time to time.
Well, I'm with you Ignis. Your renders in 3delight are a joy to behold. I'm not on the IRAY bandwagon myself either.
I like how easy lights are in Iray, emitting surfaces and translucence. All the cool 3DL things that make lighting easy seem to also just... blow out render times again.
Also, Iray Uber's ability to tile each channel independently is amazing. (Do any of the 3DL shaders do that?)
yes with the right bricks and nodes, you can get a tiling facility in store or via a tutorial on shadermixer
This is exactly what I want. I'm not telling vendord what to make i just need to know what its compatible with. I am not opposed to using 3delight and Iray, I plan on learning both as I go along since I seem to have come along at a time when that makes a bit of sense. But its really hard when composing a scene and everything is coming along just right and I do the first test render and half my textures are gone because they dont work with that render engine. Then i have to figure out which textures those were and try and find replacement. Huge waste of my already minimal time I get to play with this stuff. Two folders is fantastic, and makes it very easy to organize for easy use. I have a category for shaders then sub categories for iray 3delight and both. The dual folder ones go in both. Easy to find and work with. so thank you!
Edited to add - I don't expect vendors to go back and relable their previous products either (although if they really want to.... lol). I can usually figure out that its 3delight if its not a newer product without it being spelled out. But for new stuff I think saying what it is, is a rather major selling point for me.
Most of the time it's not a big deal to fix the shader to work but there are exceptions - namely metalic surfaces. In Iray anything that's highly metalic (like 0.85 metalicity or higher) needs to be almost white diffuse color or it comes out looking like shiny black. In 3Delight metals have to be medium toned for raytraced reflections and almost black for mapped reflection. So if you have an item that has metal areas textured on it they'll likely be dark if it was made for 3DL and look black in Iray, or very light if made for Iray and turn out very washed out in 3DL. I get around it by making a medium grey on white extra texture that I plug into the diffuse strength channel for 3DL so I don't have to put two full texture maps into the product, saves a lot of file size.
Yes, that helps a smidgen. :-)
Loves it and squeezes it and names it George. LOL. Now that's bonding.
From a PA's POV, here's a practical example of what can be involved with 2 sets of materials.
I had already finished the main (Iray) promo for my next product, and I decided it would be the best one to duplicate in 3DL. So I reloaded the scene and had a look. The background is from Room Creator Exteriors, and has about 8 figures with multiple materials. Then there's the props from the new pack - about 25 in this particular promo, many with 2-3 materials. I quickly realised it would be easier to reload everything from the original 3DL figs and props, rather than tinker with the materials. (I looked at the materials list and estimated there were over 150 to be converted).
So I reloaded all the figures and spent almost an hour reposing them all and tweaking materials, (I had made quite a few changes in the first promo materials, and it wasn't easy to remember them all). Then I copied the props one by one, and reloaded/pasted them into position. Then I had to deal with the lights, which was the hardest part. In the end, I got fairly close to the original Iray promo, but it took me most of the morning to get there.
Now, I'm not complaining about doing it, and I'm sure in promos with a single figure, it's nowhere near as difficult. But the fact remains that it's not just a question of loading up the scene and changing the renderer. So I can understand that some PAs might be reluctant to tackle it if it's a complex scene. So many tiny things differ between render engines, and you have to really know what you're doing to make a scene work in both.
mac
I do all my renders in 3Delight because of my old machine and the much shorter rendertimes and BTW someone here in the forums has written that a render he did in Iray destroyed his machine. So nope...Just 3Delight for me. BTW I also don`t use SSS so why should I use Iray?
I don't mind so much about the promo renders but at least the desciption should be explicit.
I have already refrained from buying items because the text says only
"DAZ Studio Material Presets (.DUF) "
which tells me nothing.
I don't mind tweaking materials but changing from IRAY UberSurface to DzDefault shader doesn't even set the Normal Maps correctly and I have to re-apply them manually afterwards. I don't pay for something that leaves so much work for me. So if I don't get confirmation that there are 3DLight materials as well here in the forums or from the description otherwise I won't buy.
I don't deliberately use SSS either. If it's in the texture settings already, I guess I do, but otherwise I don't fiddle with that setting. :-)
How'd IRay destroy a computer? Did someone overclock? I'm not exactly sure what that means, but I hear it might not be good for the computer.