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DAZ Productions, Inc.
224 S 200 W, Suite #250
Salt Lake City, UT 84101
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© 2024 Daz Productions Inc. All Rights Reserved.
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You're lecturing people on how to do their job, how would you react if someone walked into your workplace and started doing that to you based on incomplete knowledge?
There's plenty of non-DAZ compatible stuff around, there's a whole lot of Poser Dynamic stuff I'd really like to use (I can probably import it and rig it using the Clothing Creation utility, but that's new since DS4 and I've been around since DS2 if not DS1)
Yes, but you could also do it using the Figure Setup Tools, and those have been around for a long time. It just isn't worth it most of the time.
Kendall
There's plenty of non-DAZ compatible stuff around, there's a whole lot of Poser Dynamic stuff I'd really like to use (I can probably import it and rig it using the Clothing Creation utility, but that's new since DS4 and I've been around since DS2 if not DS1)
Yup there is mostly older products I already own.
22 pages set at 50 items per page of stuff in my account.
I'm not bashful in buying things i like i can use.
most of the products i bought when daz have there march madness sales or other promo offers.
I totaled up my credit card statement for this month. Yikes !!!
I'm wondering, is this a good place for PAs to pair up? One makes the original product for their preferred generation, then hands it off to the other for a pro-level conversion (yes, for Mil4 to Genesis Autofits's gotten lots better, but still), then they both release their products at the same time (with a bundle for the bundle-lovers, that'd be nice). The Genesis-loving PA doesn't have to take the Mil4-work risk, the Mil4-forever PA doesn't have to touch Genesis, both tap their respective markets without cutting into each other's profits, and neither gets hit with "but why not for mine?" complaints.
Not sure what the most equitable monetary arrangement would be for that, but (from my non-PA perspective, of course) I'd think it'd work out great for everybody! And even better for the texture-product PAs, since they'll get customers from both the Genesis and Mil4 pools for the same product.
You're lecturing people on how to do their job, how would you react if someone walked into your workplace and started doing that to you based on incomplete knowledge?
who is lecturing?. I thought this was a discussion forum. I am discussing the needs of the poser user . and how to maybe solve some of this conflict of product compatibility issue.
How is that lecturing? I don't understand your comment here?
some people do get very upset (touchy) when you talk about something else other than Daz or needing something to work other than in Genesis. that was my point. How is that lecturing again?
I'm wondering, is this a good place for PAs to pair up? One makes the original product for their preferred generation, then hands it off to the other for a pro-level conversion (yes, for Mil4 to Genesis Autofits's gotten lots better, but still), then they both release their products at the same time (with a bundle for the bundle-lovers, that'd be nice). The Genesis-loving PA doesn't have to take the Mil4-work risk, the Mil4-forever PA doesn't have to touch Genesis, both tap their respective markets without cutting into each other's profits, and neither gets hit with "but why not for mine?" complaints.
Not sure what the most equitable monetary arrangement would be for that, but (from my non-PA perspective, of course) I'd think it'd work out great for everybody! And even better for the texture-product PAs, since they'll get customers from both the Genesis and Mil4 pools.
I like your thinking :)
Please try to remember the terms of the Daz3d TOS, specifically the part that reads
Criticism should be directed towards the subject or topic at hand, rather than an individual.
Thankyou
" I still made more money than I did last year with Gen4 items."
Yes that tends to happen when you charge more for something you have put less time in to.
Personally I have been priced out of using genesis. And fail to understand why something that is easier to do and takes less time should cost half again as much.
Half the difficulty, done in half the time, at twice the price is always a good formula to make money.
More over with the genesis fit to system why make clothes specifically for it? Just make them for the gen4 figures and let the app do it's job. But I can understand why not, more profit from making items for genesis; less work, less time, higher price means more profit.
How do you get people to switch from mil4 to genesis? Quit making items for mil 4. If DAZ had continued to support the mil4 figures there would still be a lot of poser folk shopping here.
Edit: Also check for characters in here as well:
http://www.daz3d.com/shop/forbiddenwhispers?p=2
Seems some of the characters are missing from search like Ryuu for M4/Genesis, Abigail for V4/Genesis and Nigel for M4/Genesis.
I own a ton of your stuff. nothing new you came out with though. Great stuff.
As has been pointed out there are still poser usable items being released here along side genesis items, just because you can use all items is your own fault for limited the apps you use. Any user that decides to stick with one app is going to limit their options, plain and simple. There is a whole world of options other than poser and DS to can use 3d figures and create renders and animations, it's your choice as to what you can use. I use both poser and DS and find that genesis (and DS4 pro) cuts my workflow time in half. I feel that if not having genesis compatible with poser makes users expand their mindset and creative options, that is a good thing.
Thanks Kendall for the link.
Though I already own the v4 products on this store.:)
Ivy,
You may want to do a bit more research. SickleYield and several other PA's have stated, in the past, how much more work supporting Gen4 characters are than Genesis. They've also discussed how little returns they get G4 vs Gn.
Kendall
I do understand the time in development vs sale rational
I have read their post and i can understand it does take extra time to produce for dual programs. and the cost efectiveness of the product may not meet expectations.
but a dollar is a dollar and a sale is a sale.
I work for a ISP company, do you think my company stop selling dial up just because everyone has gone to high speed DLS.
My company still sells Dial up for the chance they still might make a buck off the service, which takes a little more effort to set up then DSL where you plug in a router and your done,
whether or not if it is worth the vender to make for both programs or not i guess would be their choice. I was just making a suggestion on maybe increasing NEW Items that poser users can buy and use.
which might help curb some of this bickering between daz and poser users
I personally don;t care if i can use or not gen5 products.
Like I said poser users don't want to work any harder using a Daz product than a Daz vender does to make it. So I guess it would be a matter of preference of the vender or poser user what they want to buy or sell. But a buck is a buck.
However, if your company is spending $50 US /per landline for dialup users (which is lowball for a business line), and let's say that you have 4 dialup users that pay $10/month. Your company is losing money by having just *1* dialup line. I can guarantee you that that won't last long.
A buck coming in is not the same as making a buck. If it costs $2 to bring in $1, that's not going happen for very long. Generally, one needs to make $3 for every $2 in order to be viable. And that doesn't account for Taxes. Add taxes to the mix, then the ratio goes to $3 for every $1. Simple College Freshman Business econ 101.
Kendall
As has been pointed out there are still poser usable items being released here along side genesis items, just because you can use all items is your own fault for limited the apps you use. Any user that decides to stick with one app is going to limit their options, plain and simple. There is a whole world of options other than poser and DS to can use 3d figures and create renders and animations, it's your choice as to what you can use. I use both poser and DS and find that genesis (and DS4 pro) cuts my workflow time in half. I feel that if not having genesis compatible with poser makes users expand their mindset and creative options, that is a good thing.
Yes I agree there are a lot of props and environment models for both poser and genesis
Clothing not so much I know i shop this site all the time looking .
I never said I didn't like the looks of the gen5 clothing.. But I'm not going to make any more effort in using it than the vender is going to creating it.
I don;t understand why not just produce for gen4 to begin with and as Stan suggest make the auto-fit tool do the work for the genesis user. Or is that like to much effort for the genesis user.
see where i am going here? It is a catch22 for sure. But Daz4 is free. we paid for poser
I fyou were a poser user you would properly have the same thoughts about genesis as i and many others poser users do..
I'm not telling anyone how to run or what to make .. But as a consumer I can make suggestions . whether or not the vender what to listen to the consumer is their choice.
However, if your company is spending $50 US /per landline for dialup users (which is lowball for a business line), and let's say that you have 4 dialup users that pay $10/month. Your company is losing money by having just *1* dialup line. I can guarantee you that that won't last long.
A buck coming in is not the same as making a buck. If it costs $2 to bring in $1, that's not going happen for very long. Generally, one needs to make $3 for every $2 in order to be viable. And that doesn't account for Taxes. Add taxes to the mix, then the ratio goes to $3 for every $1. Simple College Freshman Business econ 101.
Kendall
Last company I worked for (major company) our normal margin on a contract quote was 10%, which means in real terms that a £1,000,000 per year contract gross actually netted £100,000 pa before tax.
Last company I worked for (major company) our normal margin on a contract quote was 10%, which means in real terms that a £1,000,000 per year contract gross actually netted £100,000 pa before tax.
I should have clarified that I was using direct costs (materials)/sale and not adding employee/infrastructure. Indeed, after adding in Utilities, Employee Salaries, etc a 3:1 comes out many times to sub 1 returns. I didn't want to get into the deep econ for a thread here.
Kendall
However, if your company is spending $50 US /per landline for dialup users (which is lowball for a business line), and let's say that you have 4 dialup users that pay $10/month. Your company is losing money by having just *1* dialup line. I can guarantee you that that won't last long.
A buck coming in is not the same as making a buck. If it costs $2 to bring in $1, that's not going happen for very long. Generally, one needs to make $3 for every $2 in order to be viable. And that doesn't account for Taxes. Add taxes to the mix, then the ratio goes to $3 for every $1. Simple College Freshman Business econ 101.
Kendall
I do understand what your saying Kendall
for the record we sell more wireless DSL than anything. But we do still sell dial-up data lines ,and yes they properly do loose money on the service to some degree . But i think the company still sells dial-up as service to its customer so they still have a sale , instead of the customer going else where for the same service, and loosing a possible sale when the customer upgrades to DSL.
so until poser and daz can come back together in using the same content like it had before genesis
there is always going to be this conflict. and all i am doing is making a suggestion as a consumer on how to maybe satisfy all users. I'm not demanding, nor am I belittle any one that i uses Daz4. I like Daz3a because I can still interchange with my poser much easier than i could when i was using genesis and daz 4
I don't want to do any more work in using a product than someone does in making a product is my point whether or not they want to act upon this suggestion is really no loss to me.
I'll use a example here. I love the look of the peasant clothing for genesis But i not buying it because it is just way to much work to use it in poser, especially for what I want to use it for in animation.
That is not BASHING the Daz user .. I'm telling anyone to stop making genesis product. my comment are not even attacks on genesis. I just choose not to use it because of the extras work i have to do to use it in poser
My comments simply a consumer of dual program products suggestion.
But some of the responses are rather shocking that they think I am attacking their beloved Genesis.
So I am done this discussion to avoid a any father conflict for those who do not understand what is to be a poser user looking for compatible products .
Unless you are a really large company you can't afford to provide service or products at a loss just to keep customers away from competitors. Suggesting someone should do that to appease someone who has stated they are not interested in being a customer of the current business model makes no sense.
Business make business decisions, and consumers should be understand that.
When I see these debates regarding Genesis and Gen4 I wonder why no one ever says the Gen4 market is about 6 years old and very saturated. You surely can find something comparable to anything released on Genesis if you look for it for Gen4. You have tens of thousands of Gen4 items to look at so it's not that vendors haven't catered to the market for a long time.
Some people want Genesis content and vendors are appealing to a fresher market and are hopefully being profitable at it. There is such an insane amount of competition in the Gen4 market I don't understand why people can't find something they are looking for with all the options of clothing available on all the various stores.
Sorry Male-M3dia, that was meant more for DAZ then you, I don't know what you are charging, I quit shopping at DAZ when I could no longer install content.
Unfortunately, what seems logical isn't necessarily how things really work. Putting aside the question of how much effort it takes to make a Gen 4 version of an item with the same features as a Genesis version, I have heard that some vendors are finding that putting out dual versions DOESN'T increase sales. There has been so much rancor here that some vendors find dual versions do worse than Ge 4 onlt or Genesis only items. Vendors who, 2 years ago, sold far more copies of a Gen 4 item here than at Rendo, found that 6 months ago (before the new store), that they seemed to do better selling the Genesis-only version here and the Gen 4-only version at Rendo. My guess is that it avoids direct comparison, so the feature set and pricing don't have to be identical, and they avoid the rancor by splitting the partisans into two separate forums.
Now, this doesn't mean that this is the way it works for every vendor or product, but I have heard that multiple vendors have found this illogical pattern to be the case.
Not having identical features is valid reason for me not to buy a V4/GN bundle. I don't want to use V4 anymore so I don't want to pay for Gen4 content. For example there's a good looking set of morphs in the Modern Muses Tamesis package for Genesis/V4 . However when I saw it only had one head for Genesis and about four for V4 I lost interest immediately. Sure I could transfer them over but I've already done that for my legacy characters and don't buy more morphs for the last generation. If Genesis had the same number of heads then I would have gotten the package.
Also when vendors do heads for V4 and Genesis if they look largely different I don't see the point in bundling them together or even naming them the same. There was a toon character i saw today that I thought was good to look at but the Genesis version looked far uglier/different than the V4/A4 version. What's the point of that, you won't get my money that way. I don't want to pay for the V4 work, because I don't want to support continued development :) I'll let all those who demand more V4 do that, and inevitably they will beat me, but at least I know I am making the statement I want to make (with my wallet).
Saying something is incompatible doesn't necessarily mean any one cares much if they become compatible. If Studio users are not asking for it I seriously doubt DAZ will even look into it and so far there has been no outcry to have it happen.
With all due respect, I was answering the question about why some non-DAZ figures are incompatible with Studio. I think my answer was valid. If you want the figures to work in Studio, ask DAZ about it. If not, then don't complain if newly created figures don't work in Studio.
I can't/don't use Studio anyway, so honestly, I could give a rat's behind if they ever do.
And yet, the reverse doesn't seem to be true.
It wasn't a question, it was a statement that if DAZ introduce a figure to Studio that is unusable in Poser then they are the bad guys, but if anyone introduces a new figure to Poser that is unusable in Studio they are praised for their innovation.
And yet, the reverse doesn't seem to be true.
not entirely accurate..
customers have asked on both sides of the equation..
daz were asked about supporting the new poser figures and rigging and the answer was along the lines of - it wasn't the direction they where going to take - at the time they where developing Daz Studio 4 and Genesis
so it isn't all that different from the reason given by Smith Micro as to why they wouldn't currently support Genesis when customers asked if they would support the new daz figure
I'm referring specifically to what EClark said:
I was wondering if he also tells Poser users to ask SM if they want Genesis in Poser, and if they don't care about Genesis in Poser they shouldn't complain.
I'm not saying, BTW, that I agree with him, just wondering if he says the same thing in the reciprocal situation. I haven't seen him saying it on these forums, but perhaps he does on other forums.
I'm referring specifically to what EClark said:
I was wondering if he also tells Poser users to ask SM if they want Genesis in Poser, and if they don't care about Genesis in Poser they shouldn't complain.
I'm not saying, BTW, that I agree with him, just wondering if he says the same thing in the reciprocal situation. I haven't seen him saying it on these forums, but perhaps he does on other forums.
oooo, you where asking if EClark tells the moaners on other sites to just put up or shut up, and i thought you where asking if customers moan at smith micro as much as they moan at daz. i've seen lots of very colourful discussion aimed at both companies lol
I'm only here for a minute...lol
I have to defend the vendors a little bit. I am not a vendor anywhere, but I have made a couple of freebies... and believe me... making something so that others can use it easily is ALOT of work... no matter which program you are making it for. If I want to change up the Supersuit for myself, for example, I just have to make the textures I need and drop them into their appropriate channels for my scene. If I want to share them so others can use them....Aye, Aye, Aye.... sooooo much more work!! Now, when I had to do it TWICE for two completely different programs... my head was fried...LOL
You just don't know til you try to do it yourself..
I LOVE all the vendors who take the time to make us stuff... and don't blame any of them if they just want to create for one program or another...
I don't distingush between Gen 4 and Genesis. At least not strongly. I've probably bought 10 Gen-4 textures since joining Prime over at Rendo a few weeks ago (admittedly it's easier to justify when you're only paying $3.50 instead of $15). Genesis compatibility is a strong plus, but I can also get Genesis compatibility in about 30 seconds with Gen-X (okay, waiting for the Gen-X 4.5 update at the moment, but that's temporary). If there's a Genesis only version I'll go for that, but if there are Gen-4 textures that draw my attention, then why not? One of the attractions of Genesis is that legacy content doesn't become obsolete, and that includes legacy content you don't own yet - I even just bought some Gen-3 outfits, first in years, because I know I can use them on Genesis.
Yes I know your stance on this you are quite vocal. And I agree with your thoughts when it is related to people who are decided whether or not to give Genesis a try.
I think transferring legacy morphs over to Genesis or converting clothing is a great way to keep most of the content you already invested in useful.
However my stance is I don't go out of my way to buy items designed for V4 anymore. I could make a character from scratch if I liked, but I'm paying for the convenience of having one already completed in the format I want. And when you are transferring character morphs, or converting clothes not are you only spending more time on it(which Im paying someone else to do), it doesn't always work perfectly or you lose some functionality. While non-dress clothes may work 80% of the time, there is that 20% that is frustrating. While shapes tend to work, I don't want to also spend time transferring over every variation that may come in the package, so I am losing out on some of the stuff I paid for. I've also had shapes not work at all for one reason or another and I haven't taken the time to figure them out. Also for some reason even when using the transfer utility on clothes(still 4.0 here) morphs may not work on clothes and hair anymore. They may show up, but sliding dials does nothing. Not common but it does happen, and when it happens on something you really want to use its painful.
I am not going to spend money on things I can't get the full benefit of. And I'm not going to spend a ton of time finding out what works and what doesn't. I don't mind Gen4 freebies though :)
I'd much rather support Genesis development and if I'm giving people money for V4 items then I'm not making the right statement.
Oh and on the topic of textures, I agree with you there. I mostly use V4 textures on Genesis and recently I did buy 2 genesis characters that are using V4 textures from rendo. I've never had a problem with V4 textures on Genesis so that is probably the exception to my rule. I also bought Neives V4 (sp?) from Daz because I really wanted a blue skinned character and while I have Sirena V5 there is something really nice about Neives I couldn't resist. While I did convert one of her head shapes since it was part of the package, I didn't convert the other head choice or her bodies over. No complaints here because I got the bundle for 7 bucks which included hair, some clothes, a few skins and some shapes.
And I think all gen3 clothing I've bought thinking I could use on genesis never works out. So I've been burnt there too many times. Even with smoothing off or very low the items have too many issues.