Subsurface Toolbox

marblemarble Posts: 4,920
edited December 1969 in The Commons

HI. I bought this and am disappointed to see, after installation, that there is no documentation with it. How do I use it? I was hoping to use it with the Age of Armour Toon Shaders I bought but I haven't a clue where to start. Does it relate directly to the PDF that comes with the basic Subsurface Shader Base and does that explain enough to use all related products? I notice though, that the vendors are different.

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Comments

  • Richard HaseltineRichard Haseltine Posts: 65,931
    edited December 1969

    Judging by the promos it's a set of partial poses, and some combos, that set several parameters without disturbing others - so you mix and match the different types of preset, starting from scratch or modifying an existing preset applied to start with.

  • Kevin SandersonKevin Sanderson Posts: 1,536
    edited December 1969

    Age of Armour and DT have been working together on the shaders that have been coming out. William (AoA) mentioned that Jeffrey (DT) was testing some for him and they have products done together in the store. These may be the presets, or work the same as the presets, referred to in AoA's docs.

  • Melissa ConwayMelissa Conway Posts: 565
    edited December 1969

    I've been using AoA's subsurface shader base since it was released, and the biggest obstacle towards getting the results I'm after has been having to essentially guess about the different settings. Each test render takes time, and it's really been hit or miss (mostly miss). The Subsurface Toolbox has icons that SHOW you what the result will be for any given setting. I'm playing with it now and am thrilled with the ease of use in comparison to not having a clue what I'm doing. Hope that helps...

  • scorpioscorpio Posts: 7,556
    edited December 1969

    I've been using AoA's subsurface shader base since it was released, and the biggest obstacle towards getting the results I'm after has been having to essentially guess about the different settings. Each test render takes time, and it's really been hit or miss (mostly miss). The Subsurface Toolbox has icons that SHOW you what the result will be for any given setting. I'm playing with it now and am thrilled with the ease of use in comparison to not having a clue what I'm doing. Hope that helps...

    Thank you that's useful to know.

  • DimensionTheoryDimensionTheory Posts: 431
    edited December 1969

    I'm sorry for confusion! Melissa summed it up pretty well, these are just partial presets for the existing shader by AoA that you can use as a learning tool or to make quick adjustments. Most of the documentation would relate to the shader it's self, and Age of Armour has that very well documented already. This product is basically visual feedback for working with that shader, with thumbnails showing you what your slider changes are doing before you hit render. If you have any question about how they work please let me know.

    Designed to be an all-around utility set, this pack will get you started using the new subsurface shader from Age of Armour. Simple and complex SSS presets will teach you how to adjust the effect in different ways, while velvet and specular presets show off other new features in the shader. Use bump presets to explore it's link to Specular Noise, and load Group ID presets to help keep your scene organized.

    While testing and playing with the SSS shader, one of the most time consuming things was figuring out how exactly it works, what each slider actually does and how that effect contributes to lighting etc. The purpose of this product is to keep customers from having to go through all that trial and error, or from manually adjusting values themselves. Each of the thumbnails here will give you a clear indication of what it's going to add to your surface. You can mix and match any of the presets here to make one complex surface, or just load a single one if you want a little SSS effect.

    The Skin A and Skin B complex presets are very useful for example, because they both add the SSS properties of skin to your surface while preserving color. So you can combine them with the basic presets to add color and make purple skin, blue skin etc.

    When applying the SSS shader to a character though you may notice it doing unfavorable things to your specularity depending on how it was setup. That's where the specular presets in this set come in, giving you a variety of options to add over specularity and get results closer to what you want without fuss.

  • SzarkSzark Posts: 10,633
    edited December 1969

    Great set of presets and a real time saver thanks DT, nice work.

    Just one question why 1.44 IOR for skin considering most train of thought by sceintists suggest 1.39 - 1.41? Ok not that it matters to me but I am interested in your thoughts on this.

  • DimensionTheoryDimensionTheory Posts: 431
    edited December 1969

    Thank you, Szark! I'm glad you like them.

    Do you have any sources with info about human skin having IOR values that low? Most the stuff I came across seemed to have it down at 1.44 or in that range. I imagine it's something that's dependent on the amount of melanin in the skin, so values could vary based on skin color.

    It's something with a lot of confusion and artistic interpretation though, which also depends on how the renderer works. I made sure the values I used were from research papers or IOR charts not specific to any software so they should be pretty accurate. If you're aware of other values though I'd like to know about them.

  • SzarkSzark Posts: 10,633
    edited December 1969

    Yeah I do like them, love the grouping presets too, good thinking batman. :) I think these additions to this new SSS shader will help many learn more about the settings and what they can do...probably more than AOA's most excellent PDF.

    Oh I agree with you on that no one can say human skin is a single IOR due to thickness and as you say melanin, As for sources I could try and dig them out but this is acumalated knowledge and learning over a 4 year period. I have read papers stating 1.44, one being a British paper so they must be right. :) But generally I have seen more 1.41 than anything else. I was really just interested why you chosse that figure and wasn't suggesting it was wrong. :) Hell I have even seen some papers suggesting 1.53 which I find hard to believe.

    As for artistic interpretation and render engine, yep again I agree. If it looks good then who cares what the settings are. ;) I did get hung up for a while thinking real world but now go with what looks right or good.

    I have also read teeth well the enamel, has an IOR of 1.62 - 1.70 but mainly 1.62 and the Cornea 1.54 whereas the lens is 1.34 which you used for the cornea but again we are dealing with 3D that has no lens mat zone. :) That is why I didn't mention that one. :)

    Oh and another question is Fresnal controled by Reflection IOR in the shader as I don't see any Fresnal settings.

    Overall though I am very happy with what you and AOA and made here. I haven't had a chance to play yet and I am looking forward to diving in. But from what I have seen on the forums they look good.

    Have you tried using you Interjection SSS strength maps with this shader yet?

  • DimensionTheoryDimensionTheory Posts: 431
    edited December 1969

    Fresnel effects for reflection would be the reflection IOR, but velvet has it's own and that would be the falloff value. I believe those are the only two things that have fresnel effects in this shader. Reflection wasn't included in these as it would have required many more presets to cover blurring, strength, fresnel and quality. Considering all these things have been around in other shaders like UberSurface, I felt they were likely well understood and my attention was better directed towards what makes this shader new and special.

    I have played with my interjection maps and this shader, there's certainly a lot of fun to be had with localizing the effects. This shader has features that could be taken advantage of much better than the Interjection maps do though, things like vein maps which I tried with M5 will work great with the right attention to detail :)

    I'll be posting renders here and there of scenes I put together using Subsurface Toolbox. This first one I did today, with everything using AoA's subsurface shader aside from the tear, which uses one of my EYEris presets. SSS and shadow color are great tools for flower petals.

    V5.jpg
    1000 x 1300 - 168K
  • SzarkSzark Posts: 10,633
    edited May 2013

    Sorry DT you misunderstand me I wasn't moaning about the lack of Presets just asking the question of how Fresnel was handled in the Shader as Uber Surfrace 2 has a separate Fresnel channel so I had to guess and with reading the PDF I assumed Fresnal effects were handled by Reflection IOR which for me makes more sense than Uber Surface 2's settings. :)

    Very nice render too.

    PS i think I understand why SSS strength maps won't be needed with this shader.

    Post edited by Szark on
  • LocusSolusLocusSolus Posts: 59
    edited May 2013

    [...] SSS and shadow color are great tools for flower petals.

    Indeed ! I'm going to check out my cart this week-End, and I have already planned to reinstall all my Lisa-Botanica (aroud 30 items) as well. I'm very excited to see how much this shader will transfigurate this great DAZ's gardens collection.


    PS i think I understand why SSS strength maps won't be needed with this shader.

    :) That looks being a privilege which you'd be kind to share with us, LoL.
    I admit that I've read everything a little bit in diagonal, and won't miss to go deeper this week-end.

    Thanks a lot Szark, for all these usefull precisions. (specially on IOR).

    Post edited by LocusSolus on
  • DimensionTheoryDimensionTheory Posts: 431
    edited May 2013

    I thought that the reflection thing should be cleared up anyway and didn't think you were moaning so it's no worry, and thank you for the comments :)

    Here is another render of the same character using some different presets (stronger SSS on the skin)

    V5B.jpg
    1000 x 1300 - 156K
    Post edited by DimensionTheory on
  • SzarkSzark Posts: 10,633
    edited December 1969

    Oh Man want a morning I had, just reread what I wrote and boy no wonder I am confused. I seriously must apologise for some errors I made. That is what yoiu get with 36 hours of no sleep.

    Correction time, just went and dug out my notes.

    Cornea IOR 1.38 could use 1.34 given the nature of the Vitreous material but I like what 1.38 gave me
    Teeth Enamal IOR 1.62
    Finger and Toe Nails IOR 1.54.

    I bet DT was shouting at me saying...welll I wont repeat it here. LOL

    LocusSolus, DT correct me If I am wrong please but the way I see it is that Pre SSS will do the job of SSS Strength maps for us.

    Pre SSS uses the diffuse color and texture in the subsurface calculation. This generally gives a softer looking
    diffuse. Under this method the diffuse strength may be increased or decreased. At a high diffuse strength the
    surface may look more solid and the effects of subsurface scattering may not be as noticeable. At very low
    settings, some of the detail of textures, like lip color, moles or freckles will "wash out" and the model will appear
    more like soft wax.
  • DimensionTheoryDimensionTheory Posts: 431
    edited May 2013

    Lol I didn't feel any need to shout, there's a lot of confusion about IOR in general so I've got nothing against suggesting different values. Honestly though I don't think many if any would notice the difference in rendering between an IOR of 1.40 and 1.41 (most of my IOR thumbnails look the same even to me which is why I added the numbers). :P

    The difference between pre and post SSS doesn't affect the need for SSS strength maps, it's more to do with the relationship between diffuse and SSS color. Pre-SSS basically turns your surface into SSS (using your diffuse in the SSS calculation) while Post-SSS adds the SSS effect on top (calculates SSS separately and overlays), if that makes sense. It helps a lot with the differences between really translucent materials like the gummy shaders and more opaque or solid surfaces like skin or wood etc.

    Most reasoning behind what I said about the SSS strength maps comes from how well the new shader localizes effects on it's own. It seems to be much more aware of thickness than UberSurface, so it automatically produces stronger effects on thin bits like ears better. This isn't to say that strength maps aren't useful anymore, just less needed to produce realistic results. They'll be best off in full color now since SSS color pulls from maps directly, rather than needing to multiply them with a solid color.

    Post edited by DimensionTheory on
  • SzarkSzark Posts: 10,633
    edited May 2013

    Lol I didn't feel any need to shout, there's a lot of confusion about IOR in general so I've got nothing against suggesting different values. Honestly though I don't think many if any would notice the difference in rendering between an IOR of 1.40 and 1.41 (most of my IOR thumbnails look the same even to me which is why I added the numbers). :P

    Yeah I was half joking. Granted that small differences won't, in a render when it comes to IOR won't be that noticeable but I will go back to what I said earlier that my questions came from wanting to really understand how and why certain figures came about. Thanks for taking the time and patience in answering DT.

    Recently due another knid person around here and on DA educated me on and SSS Shading Rates and transluceny and confirmed a few things about SSS Scale . All the time we have been using a scale of 1.00 - 1.70 and I had this feeling is was not quite right with the unit of measurement in Daz Studio being a CM. So 1 is 1 cm and skin is way thinner than that even all the skin layers together. So I came to the conclusion that a value of 0.10 - 0.20 SSS Scale would be better. But I never considered the SSS shading Rate which I had set far too high. As soon as I dropped the SSS shading rate down to 1.00 -2.00 the banding disappeared.


    The difference between pre and post SSS doesn't affect the need for SSS strength maps, it's more to do with the relationship between diffuse and SSS color. Pre basically turns your surface into SSS (using your diffuse in the SSS calculation) while Post-SSS adds the SSS effect on top (calculates SSS separately and overlays), if that makes sense. It helps a lot with the differences between really translucent materials like the gummy shader and more opaque or solid surfaces like skin or wood etc.
    Ok cool I think I get this now but using Pre SSS still says to me that if it uses the diffuse colour in the SSS calculations and SSS is alreeady burnt in to the texture map works just likea strenght map would after a fashion.


    Most reasoning behind what I said about the SSS strength maps comes from how well the new shader localizes effects on it's own. It seems to be much more aware of thickness than UberSurface, so it automatically produces stronger effects on thin bits light ears better. This isn't to say that strength maps aren't useful anymore, just less needed to produce realistic results. They'll be best off in full color now since SSS color pulls from maps directly, rather than needing to multiply them with a solid color.So the shader is using the thickness of the whole mesh, back and front and not the skin of the mesh? If that is the case then I am now enlightened and everything has fallen in to place. If not I am going to lie down in a darkened room. :)

    Sorry if this conversation should be in the Shader Base thread but it is getting busy over there. ;)

    Post edited by Szark on
  • DimensionTheoryDimensionTheory Posts: 431
    edited December 1969

    I don't mind answering questions where I'm able and you're fine asking them here, I know there's a lot to sort through in the other thread and I'm sure AoA could use some rest lol.

    Shading Scale is something I'd recommend not getting into habit using the same values on, it's really something that depends on what you're doing and it opens the door to some fun things when you exaggerate it. AoA spent the time making sure the values in his shader lined up with how the effect is meant to work according to 3Delight documentation, the default value for Shading Scale was set to .10 for the reasons you mentioned in order to make it render accurately on things in DAZ Studio. I say it depends on what you're doing because your render may call for a Genesis scaled to 1000% for a giant or 10% for a fairy.

    Shading Rate depends on a few things as well. For high quality renders of a Genesis figure I usually bring it down to 1, if I'm doing a render that doesn't require high settings I'm able to set it around 8 or 16. So it's dependent on the quality of your render settings (Shading Rate specifically), it's also altered by Shading Scale in that you can usually get away with higher Shading Rates with higher scale without noticing banding. Low Index of Refraction will appear to make the banding worse, because it localizes the brightness of SSS (which ends up localized to the banding).

    Subsurface scattering effects in general rely on the thickness of surfaces to produce it's differences in color, this is what makes ears appear brighter than the rest of the face. The thinner the surface is the more light should be coming through and scattering into the object. UberSurface relies on thickness though differently than this new shader does, so I made the Interjection maps to accommodate this and accentuate the effect. My Interjection maps are basically thickness maps with some added brightness for fleshy'fatty parts, all of which seems to be handled better with the new shader.

  • SzarkSzark Posts: 10,633
    edited December 1969

    Sweet yes tkanks DT. That now all makes sense. I never thought Uber Surface worked as I thought it should LOL when it came to the thickness of the mesh as a whole, this cinfirms that. I still like Uber Surface 2 though. ;) Yeah it is all sinking in and falling into place with your help thank you.

    I think I am hung up on SSS for skin as it is a personal challenge of mine but yes free the mind and play with all sorts of surfaces and objects. All the promo images show this very nicely and I must say quite inspiring.

  • kyoto kidkyoto kid Posts: 33,994
    edited December 1969

    I don't mind answering questions where I'm able and you're fine asking them here, I know there's a lot to sort through in the other thread and I'm sure AoA could use some rest lol.

    Shading Scale is something I'd recommend not getting into habit using the same values on, it's really something that depends on what you're doing and it opens the door to some fun things when you exaggerate it. AoA spent the time making sure the values in his shader lined up with how the effect is meant to work according to 3Delight documentation, the default value for Shading Scale was set to .10 for the reasons you mentioned in order to make it render accurately on things in DAZ Studio. I say it depends on what you're doing because your render may call for a Genesis scaled to 1000% for a giant or 10% for a fairy.

    Shading Rate depends on a few things as well. For high quality renders of a Genesis figure I usually bring it down to 1, if I'm doing a render that doesn't require high settings I'm able to set it around 8 or 16. So it's dependent on the quality of your render settings (Shading Rate specifically), it's also altered by Shading Scale in that you can usually get away with higher Shading Rates with higher scale without noticing banding. Low Index of Refraction will appear to make the banding worse, because it localizes the brightness of SSS (which ends up localized to the banding).

    Subsurface scattering effects in general rely on the thickness of surfaces to produce it's differences in color, this is what makes ears appear brighter than the rest of the face. The thinner the surface is the more light should be coming through and scattering into the object. UberSurface relies on thickness though differently than this new shader does, so I made the Interjection maps to accommodate this and accentuate the effect. My Interjection maps are basically thickness maps with some added brightness for fleshy'fatty parts, all of which seems to be handled better with the new shader.


    ...so the shading rate adjustment is for the SSS shader found in the Surfaced Tab, not the one in the Render Settings, correct?

    Just picked this up and want to make sure I have my terms correct as this is totally new territory for me.

  • SzarkSzark Posts: 10,633
    edited December 1969

    Yes SSS Shading Rate is in the Surfaces Pane Correct.

  • kyoto kidkyoto kid Posts: 33,994
    edited December 1969

    ...thank you. From what I have seen, I'm excited. I know it will take time to really "get under the fingers" so to say (used to be a classical keyboardist of the musical variety), but I do have more time on my hands these days.

  • omradiocomomradiocom Posts: 66
    edited December 1969

    As a long time Bryce user, I've been wanting more and more shaders. These sets help.

    What might be great for those of us still working through intermediate stages of understanding lighting...YouTube tutorials. Brief, to the point, and examples. "So, lets say you wan this to look like" and do variations. Explain what the spectacular, ambient, SSS etc do. Then, as we follow the steps, we'll be inclined to improvise with including textures.

    For instance, I've been experimenting with using a cosmic image as a Subsurface image and the like. I'm used to doing this with ambient and diffuse. But it would be really nice to see examples from the makers.
    The PDF that came with the initial set and the presets I purchased for gummy/plastic have been a good start.

    Thanks for increasing the range of this program package.

  • Joe CotterJoe Cotter Posts: 3,234
    edited December 1969

    ... SSS and shadow color are great tools for flower petals.

    Could you clarify something? I thought AoA said SSS couldn't be used on any geometry that were single poly deep. Aren't the petals single poly deep?
  • DimensionTheoryDimensionTheory Posts: 431
    edited December 1969

    It can be used on objects a single poly deep, but there is some weirdness that can come from it depending on how that object's normals are setup in relation to your lighting. Since SSS is an effect that relies on thickness it makes sense that objects need thickness for them to work optimally. The flowers here have normals that work well with the situation, they are all facing outward with another object behind them so they're really only being lit and viewed from one side. It's the same reason the SSS works well on clothing, even though it's generally one poly thick the curvature will give it thickness in relation to lighting and the figure wearing it.

    During testing I worked on a scene with sun coming in through curtains hanging in a window. The curtains I was using happened to be one poly deep, and the SSS effect I was looking for only came about by adding thickness to the mesh via a geometry shell with different normals. It seems to need two normals facing away from each other, one telling the light it's entering the surface and another for exiting the other side. If you just have the one normal your light enters and assumes the thickness is infinite because there's no exit normal.

    So it works, it's just a bit picky and really only correct if it has thickness. The normal flipping switch in the shader is there to help work around it but mostly it relies on how the model is made.

  • Joe CotterJoe Cotter Posts: 3,234
    edited May 2013

    Thank you, this explains a lot. AoA actually explained some of this in his towel example but you filled in a lot that I had seen with some of my experiments but hadn't nailed down yet. :)

    Post edited by Joe Cotter on
  • AdemnusAdemnus Posts: 744
    edited December 1969

    I have to say Im not finding this as intuitive as people seem to be claiming. I tried a light colored skin preset and my figure turned nearly black. I saw some other icons marked "skin" but the teapots in the icons were black as coal. Im not sure how intuitive that is for me.

    In other words, people more experienced in SSS are finding it a dream come true but those of us who are new to it are confuzzled beyond words.

    I like this product and Im not going to return it, but some detailed documentation would do wonders for some of us.

  • scorpioscorpio Posts: 7,556
    edited December 1969

    I have to say Im not finding this as intuitive as people seem to be claiming. I tried a light colored skin preset and my figure turned nearly black. I saw some other icons marked "skin" but the teapots in the icons were black as coal. Im not sure how intuitive that is for me.

    In other words, people more experienced in SSS are finding it a dream come true but those of us who are new to it are confuzzled beyond words.

    I like this product and Im not going to return it, but some detailed documentation would do wonders for some of us.

    Its not completely straight forward and obvious, at least not to me either, and I have been using SSS for a while, you need to do lots of test renders until you get a feel for how the different settings work.

  • DimensionTheoryDimensionTheory Posts: 431
    edited December 1969

    AoA has documented much of how the shader itself works in case that helps...

    http://www.ageofarmour.com/3d/tutorials/AoA_subsurface_shader_help.html

    As for the specific issue you mentioned I think it's because of how DAZ Studio and custom shaders work in relation to partial presets in general that's causing trouble. Any one of these presets is going to load the SSS Shader, if you're using UberSurface and you apply a specular preset it'll switch you to the SSS Shader. Other values on that material are going the be retained from UberSurface, and if it had black for Ambient Color (AoA's SSS pulls from this) then your SSS will render as black. The same thing is true with other values switching from DAZ Default to UberSurface.

    The complex presets only affect the SSS Scatter and Absorption sliders, they don't affect the SSS Color value (which is why they work along with the simple presets). Which means that the SSS Color is whatever your material started with. If you would like just the color shown in the complex preset thumbnail, all you have to do is load a white simple preset of your desired strength :)

    I'm sorry for the trouble, hope that helps.

  • ArtiniArtini Posts: 5,580
    edited December 1969

    AoA has documented much of how the shader itself works in case that helps...

    http://www.ageofarmour.com/3d/tutorials/AoA_subsurface_shader_help.html
    ...


    Yes AoA documentation helps, but he use in it a picture from his other item: Metalized Glass Shaders for DAZ Studio
    http://www.ageofarmour.com/3d/tutorials/AoA_subsurface_shader_help_files/apply_shader.jpg
    which can confuse some of the users, I think.
  • SloshSlosh Posts: 2,387
    edited December 1969

    I'm glad I bought the toolbox because clicking the presets does show me what gets changed in the settings (if I keep the surface pane open while clicking the presets). The presets change all associated material settings that need to be changed for that particular effect. In many shaders one setting is dependent on another, and while you might change a particular setting, you won't necessarily get the desired effect unless you change another setting. These presets, when clicked, allow you to see all of the various settings affected at once. After a few times, it starts to become apparent what you need to do to get a desired effect. For example, clicking on a complex preset such as Potato changes many settings, including absorption colors, SSS strength, and others, but it does not change the SSS color. Now I know that, so when I want to apply the Potato setting, I know I need to pay attention to what SSS color I want to achieve with it.

    I still have plenty of features to figure out, but this Toolbox will help immensely. I'm pretty sure that, eventually, I won't use the presets in the Toolbox at all because I will know what needs to be changed as I go along. I believe that was the purpose of the toolbox in the first place. So, for me, the small price I paid for the toolbox is worth it as it would have taken me much longer to figure out each setting through trial and error.

    I think, if DimensionTheory would be so inclined, it might be helpful to have a written guide that says, "Clicking this preset will change the following dials in the surface pane..." This might help take some of the guesswork out, and we won't have people frustrated that clicking Potato didn't make their surface look like a potato. As DT mentioned above, the shader and certainly the presets don't automatically fill in all of the details. If your ambient is black, the preset will leave it black giving you a dark object. Having such a list would be helpful. Maybe it's something I can work on, with DT's permission???

  • Joe CotterJoe Cotter Posts: 3,234
    edited May 2013

    ...As for the specific issue you mentioned I think it's because of how DAZ Studio and custom shaders work in relation to partial presets in general that's causing trouble. Any one of these presets is going to load the SSS Shader, if you're using UberSurface and you apply a specular preset it'll switch you to the SSS Shader. Other values on that material are going the be retained from UberSurface, and if it had black for Ambient Color (AoA's SSS pulls from this) then your SSS will render as black. The same thing is true with other values switching from DAZ Default to UberSurface.

    Thanks again, this could have tripped me up... US defaults being different then the dzDefault shader type of defaults. That is one of the complications in something this advanced is that when switching from a dsDefault shader it can be done with some level of understanding of what one is going to get with a little playing. If one is converting from one advanced shader to another, it pretty much requires a good understanding of both shaders to get consistent results and to know what to expect. If one is jumping around between lots of shaders, it can be a bit of a shotgun approach that without a solid foundation in all of the shaders involved can lead to a bit of a confused mess.

    Trying to learn these, I would recommend considering going mostly from dzDefault to whatever advanced shader one is trying to learn. Stick with that process, learning as much as one can and switch to another combination of dzDefault to different advanced shader with conscious forethought and planning. Only after one feels they have a good basic understanding of each is it going to be clear what is going on when jumping from one advanced shader to another.

    This is just one approach of getting it to a more logical and predictable pattern for anyone having problems. Some learn best just jumping around and seeing what happens... If that is working, no need to change. I use a mix of the two myself. I jump around till I get too confused, take a step-by-step approach till I get bored, then switch back to spaz mode ;)

    Post edited by Joe Cotter on
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