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UV mapping question
Posted: 01 June 2012 12:08 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 31 ]
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afreaginname - 31 May 2012 11:32 PM

  
This thread isn’t about models YOU made in hex, nor is it about DS4 or genesis. It’s about UV mapping problems the OP is having with models HE makes in hex and how we can help him solve those problems.

Look bud, I’m trying to be civil. If it confused you that I referenced myself instead the OP I apologize. That doesn’t change the fact that you are insisting he follow your out of date procedures and claiming they are the only way to go. 

I have no idea where you came up with that assumption.

If you load a poser model into UVMapper…

Does that need farther explanation? I didn’t think it was necessary to quote the entire thing.


If you or anyone else can convince me any of my statements are inaccurate I will gladly cede the point. “Because I know so” doesn’t count.

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Posted: 01 June 2012 01:18 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 32 ]
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admkrk - 01 June 2012 12:08 AM

That doesn’t change the fact that you are insisting he follow your out of date procedures and claiming they are the only way to go

 
You should see someone about the hallucinations you’re having.

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Posted: 01 June 2012 03:31 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 33 ]
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As a 3D paint program. I’ve used it a couple times and it has worked well if the objs/3ds are well formed. It doesn’t seem to work so well if the models are very large or badly formed. But, when it works, it seems to work pretty well for painting directly on the model. Can zoom in/out, do detail or large areas quickly… and create some pretty complex/detailed texture maps directly on the models.

wancow - 31 May 2012 08:58 PM
Gedd - 31 May 2012 08:51 PM

Question, doesn’t anyone use Photoshop for painting their objs?

You mean creating textures or as a 3D Paint program?

Personally, I’d love to see a DAZ Studio GIMP Bridge!

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Posted: 01 June 2012 07:30 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 34 ]
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Excellent responses!!!!  Thank you everyone, most appreciated.

I am fairly new to uvmapping and alot of what was said about the different types of alogarithims and technical terms is over my head.  The reason I never learned UVmapper free is that I didn’t need to.  When I started modelling with Hexagon I needed to learn to create templates and learned what I could in Hex because I was already in the program.

Because I’m so new to uvmapping a few things confuse me.  How can you uvmap parts in different programs to have one complete set of uvmaps?  Do you uvmap one part of an object, save it out as an OBJ then open it in another and uvmap part of it there then save it out again as an OBJ (exporting with uvmaps)?  Not understanding this is what has kept me from exploring other programs.

I’m familiar enough now with the basic Hexagon uvmapping that I understand how it would work in other programs, though I have to admit that I’ve never welded anything yet…just watched some videos on it.

...let’s keep this a friendly thread, I appreciate everyone’s opinions and information, though they may differ.  Thanks muchly

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Posted: 01 June 2012 10:05 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 35 ]
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Burpee - 01 June 2012 07:30 AM

Because I’m so new to uvmapping a few things confuse me.  How can you uvmap parts in different programs to have one complete set of uvmaps?  Do you uvmap one part of an object, save it out as an OBJ then open it in another and uvmap part of it there then save it out again as an OBJ (exporting with uvmaps)?

 
The fine points of mapping can be extremely confusing to the uninitiated. While the concept seems simple, the devil is in the details.
 
First and foremost, you should understand that UV mapping is done in order to apply textures to a model.
One thing that confuses many people is that you can assign colors to meshes without having a UV map, but you cannot apply textures without a UV map.
 
When a mesh is first created, it has no UV map.
If you create a cube in hex and save it as an obj file, you can read it with a text editor. You’ll see that the cube only contains vertices (“v “) and facets (“f “).
 
A UV map can be created in many ways by various programs (including hex), but once mapped, that information is written to the OBJ file.
If you look at the same cube after it’s been mapped, you’ll see that a new set of coordinates (marked “vt “) have been written to the OBJ file. The “vt” stands for “texture vertices” (the initials are reversed, but that’‘s what it means. smile ).
 
Basically, a mesh model is a bunch of points in 3D space, and a UV map is a 2D map of those points spread out and flattened.
 
Any programs that subsequently read in that OBJ file also read in its UV map.
Since some mapping programs do things better than others, a user may map his mesh in one program and tweak it in another.
 
One aspect of mapping that confuses many people is that multiple maps can be created for different parts of a model using the same 2D space.
 
If you open a typical Poser model in a mapping program, you’ll see that the map is a big jumble of meshes. The head for instance, is mapped using the same 2D space as the body. In order to work on the head by itself, you have to “hide” the body, and vice versa.
 
I only hope I’ve made things clearer for you rather than leaving you more confused, but I’ll be happy to answer any further questions you may have.  smile

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Posted: 01 June 2012 10:29 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 36 ]
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No, you did not confuse me.  I do understand that all the mapped parts can occupy the same space.  When I select my entire object after mapping in Hex and look at the resultant uvmap view I can see all the parts ontop of each other.  It is understanding how to select just part of the object for mapping in other programs like UVmapper. I’m sure it’s a matter of learning to use the software and many pointers have been listed in the thread so far.

Using multiple mappers is where I am getting confused.  If I start by mapping in Hexagon, then I take that kitty-whampus shaped map on my object into UVmapper I still have a misshaped uvmap and have to tweak it.  Sounds like starting with a different mapper is the answer.  Do I understand that correctly?

I am going to download all the softwares mentioned and try each one of them to see how they respond to one of my models.  Then I’ll know which is more to my liking.  I really wanted Hexagon to be my ‘do_all’ program but it’s not to be and doubt that there is a version 3 in the works.  If I keep modelling I need to put some real effort into learning better mapping programs because hex isn’t cugoing to do it.

About PS for 3D texturing:  Saw some videos on this and it’s interesting that it can do that but I thought the results were rather crude.  Assume that they will keep improving on it.

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Posted: 01 June 2012 11:08 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 37 ]
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Burpee - 01 June 2012 10:29 AM

If I start by mapping in Hexagon, then I take that kitty-whampus shaped map on my object into UVmapper I still have a misshaped uvmap and have to tweak it.  Sounds like starting with a different mapper is the answer.  Do I understand that correctly?

 
Yup! You understand perfectly!  smile
 
I think DaremoK3 gave a pretty good review of the most popular mapping utilities out there (http://www.daz3d.com/forums/viewreply/10528/), and it may be very useful to you as a guide in your endeavors.
 
One thing that “bothers” me though, is that my gut tells me that hexagon’s mapper is probably a highly capable mapping engine, and I wonder if the problems we encounter are actual “bugs” or if they’re due to poor documentation. Again, Tramp may know more about unraveling these problems than any of us, so you might keep him in mind as well.

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Posted: 01 June 2012 12:40 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 38 ]
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Ugh, I had to download and install Chrome to be able to login to the forum.

Have a question about mapping.

I am in Hexagon and am making multiple copies of the same object.  I usually uvmap the object before making copies so that they all have the same uvmap…only have to map once, very handy.

If I use a different uvmapper will I then have to uvmap each individual object?

About the possibility that my inexperience is causing some of my problems, it is very possible.  I have not ever changed the u and v orientation of the pinning before.  I have for the seams but not pins.  And thinking about it now, I have only changed the u and v orientation for seams on the whole object, not for individual seams.  This is a good place to experiment.  I’m in the middle of a creation so I’ll have ample opportunity to give it a try.

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Posted: 01 June 2012 02:03 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 39 ]
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Burpee - 01 June 2012 12:40 PM

Ugh, I had to download and install Chrome to be able to login to the forum

 
Odd…I’m using IE8 and haven’t had any problems.
 

Have a question about mapping.
I am in Hexagon and am making multiple copies of the same object.  I usually uvmap the object before making copies so that they all have the same uvmap…only have to map once, very handy.
If I use a different uvmapper will I then have to uvmap each individual object?

 
Another “devil in the details” question…  LOL
 
Let’s suppose you make a cube in hexagon and map it. Assume the cube’s “group” name is “cube”, and the material name is “mat”.
 
Now let’s say you duplicate the cube so that you have 2 cubes in your scene (each cube being a sparate “group”), and you save that as an OBJ file.
 
There are 3 ways to save this file:
#1) Both groups are named identically, say “cube” and “cube”, AND their respective materials are identically named “mat” and “mat”.
#2) Each cube is named differently, say “cube1” and “cube2”, and their respective materials are identically named “mat” and “mat”.
#3) Both groups are named identically, say “cube” and “cube”, but their respective materials are named differently to “mat1” and “mat2”.
 
In #1, both materials are coincident, and behave as a single UV map. If you alter that map, it changes for both cubes.
Also, if you select by “group”, both materials are also selected, and vice versa. The materials (UVs) in this case can’t be separated.
 
In #2, the materials are initially coincident, and altering the UV selected “by material” will change the UVs for both cubes.
HOWEVER - since the cubes are named differently, you can select each cube “by group” and the selected UV will belong ONLY to that cube.
You can select “by group” cube1, shrink its own “mat” down and stick it in the upper left corner of the mapping space, and you can take the “mat” UV for cube2, shrink it down and stick it in the lower right corner of the mapping space. Or you can arrange them left and right or top and bottom of the mapping space. Hereafter, they are no longer coincident and can be worked on separately, but selecting “by material” will select both UVs anyway because both materials have the same name.
 
In #3, you can do the same thing but inversely: Although the materials are initially coincident, you can select “mat1” by itself and move it and do the same with “mat2” so that they’re no longer coincident, but if you select “by group”, both UVs are selected because both groups have the same name.
 
In both #2 and #3, once the UVs have been separated, they can also be individually manipulated by selecting their own vertices or faces.
 
ADD:
After re-reading, I should add that obviously there’s a 4th way of saving: both groups named differently and both materials named differently.
In this case, everything is individually selectable, and selecting a material will only select it’s associated cube, and selecting a cube will only select it’s associated material.
So in this case, both the UVs will initially be coincident, and while you can select the vertices or faces and manipulate them together as though they were one, the 2 are not “locked” together as they are in some of the above cases, and must be considered as separate UVs.

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Posted: 01 June 2012 04:17 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 40 ]
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Just got back in from planting in my garden and it’s almost time to Skype with my co-worker.  No time to ask all my questions but I’ll be back.

You say ‘duplicate’...does that clone?  I always use copy and paste so that I don’t get clones.

I used IE this morning twice and had no issues but when I came back the third time it wanted me to login.  I clicked on ‘login’ and it took me to my dashboard.  I used the links back to the thread and it said to login.  Around and around and around.  I had to call Daz3d and Joan told me to try Chrome.  Did the trick.

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Posted: 01 June 2012 04:46 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 41 ]
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Burpee - 01 June 2012 04:17 PM

You say ‘duplicate’...does that clone?  I always use copy and paste so that I don’t get clones

 
Same thing. Copy’n'paste or the copy tool both create “clones”.

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Posted: 01 June 2012 07:16 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 42 ]
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Good to see you are getting something out of your thread Burpee.


I’m a very visual person, so I would like to see screen-shots if you could, please.

To add to the great info afreaginname has shared, you are starting to get into the realm of “styles” (see, this is why we should have a 101 where everyone can share).


What “I” mean about styles is there are different mapping algorithms one can pick to map different objects, groups, or even mat zones within a model for a map, but mapping styles has to do with convention, and personal likes in map completion.  A for example:


*Game modeling/mapping - Generally, mapping for games is about resource footprint, and optimizing the map to the fullest.  So, for example, a human character is mirror/stacked map on the X axis to allow for optimal painting space, and packed tight (no pixel buffer) for optimal non-wasted map space.  This is fine, and many people even map this style for Poserverse, but there are some caveats to this type of mapping, and one must no when (or even why) to map this way.


For gaming, no end user (besides modders) are messing with the mesh, or the maps, and they are optimized for real-time rendering.  But, and this includes modders, one can not have separate textures on any part of the mesh (in fact, it is usually one group/mat-zone).  This means one could not have, say, a blue eye, and a green eye.  Or, an eagle tattoo on the right arm without it on the exact same spot on the left arm.


The reason I bring this up is because this is what you are attempting to do;  Stacked (non-mirrored) UV islands, which have their uses, but you need to decide if you are mapping these parts this way via convention to save map space, or because you don’t know any better, and someone convinced you this is how you are supposed to map identical items (i.e. wood-planks, pillars, brick-walls, car-rims, pencils, or what-have-you).


Like I said, this style definitely has it’s uses, and is a big resource saver, but, hypothetically, let’s say you are creating something like a building, or court-yard walls.  Now, let’s say that someone (or yourself, if you aren’t making content for others) wants to add graffiti to one wall, or bullet holes (including custom displacement) to another.  Well, because of the stacked islands every wall will display the same graffiti, or bullet holes (and all in the exact same space).


If you never plan on releasing to the public (who love to modify), or you don’t plan to alter your textures (even though each textured part will be identical) then it is a very good style to use.  Personally, I never stack islands like this, because I believe in part diversity, and one may never know when they might need to alter texture map sets to suit a desired scene.


Take care all…
Ken

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Posted: 01 June 2012 08:28 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 43 ]
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A few more examples of UV mapping styles:


*Stacked island multi-maps (what afreaginname was talking about) - A good example of this is V4/M4.  V4 has seven UV maps stacked on top of one another.  One would extrapolate each individual map to be individually painted on.  UVMapper Classic (and Pro) is good for this, but can be done in others like my favorite, Dimension 3D’s UV Viewer.


In UVMC you hide all except the islands which make up one particular map, and then save out a texture map (whatever size needed).  Only caveat is you have to remember to check “exclude hidden facets” in the save dialog.


*Multiple objects/one UV map - This does not mean multiple objects that comprise of one mesh, but multiple meshes (which may, or may not be comprised of multiple objects) all sharing one UV map.  Example would be a sword pack with seven swords.  Some of Valandar’s (DAZ PA) work uses this style, and I have recently started to adopt it as well.


These are only a couple of examples of different styles one can employ to create their maps.


Please feel free to share other styles you use, have seen, or better yet, your own personal style you would like to share with us.


Take care all…
Ken

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Posted: 01 June 2012 08:51 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 44 ]
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Here is an example of a poorly mapped mesh, and then re-mapped correctly with low distortion flattening.  It is a freebie I created, and added the poor/quick mapping at last second.  Luckily, I neglected to replace the original OBJ, and just included the maps.  Surprising that no one ever noticed (or tried to add a texture map apparently).  This is the pendant I was referring to a few posts back that I have now re-mapped to five separate new maps.  I will show two of the five below.


One good thing I learned with this was it is never good to planar map a mesh after Poser placement finalization with altered scale/translation/rotation.  Rotation screwing up the 90 degrees planar projection planes.  It was easily rectified, and now I know better.


- The top two are from first mapping a couple years back.  I did quick planar mapping in UVMapper Classic.  I created a separate map for each individual main parts of the pendant, so there are two maps.  The cord connector map is 1024, and the pendant map is 2048.

- The last two picks are two of the five new low-to-no distortion re-maps.


Take care all…
Ken

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Posted: 01 June 2012 09:30 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 45 ]
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admkrk:

Every time I see your name I read as “Admiral Kirk”.  How far off the mark am I?


Anyways, you mentioned a few posts back if anyone was actually mapping from scratch, or only re-mapping others works.  I do a little of both.  Of course, I have to map my own projects (since FireAngel convinced me everything needs to be mapped regardless if they are only going to get material shaders), but I also map others work, because, let’s face it, some work out there needs it.


Here is an example of a badly needed re-map from my Poser4 catalog.  No disrespect to the creator intended.  It was a freebie, but even freebies need to strive to have proper mapping (nowadays that is.  We let so much slide a decade ago).


First two pics are the original.  The third pic is my first re-map a couple years back.  I re-mapped it two more times, once in Roadkill, and then my final in UVLayout (can’t agree with you more, one of the greatest mappers around).  I will post pics of the other two in their own posts.  To be continued…


Take care all…
Ken

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