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3Delight Discussion
Posted: 28 September 2012 07:50 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 76 ]
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Well, no pic to post…but render completed in 3 hr 12 mins…dirty rotten kids…closed Studio before I could save the render.  I was guessing about 3 hrs, based on other stuff I’ve done. 

In my general experience, on my machine, 4.x is about twice as fast as 3A and the stand alone is usually at least twice as fast as 4.x, if not much more than that.

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Posted: 28 September 2012 07:55 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 77 ]
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mjc1016 - 28 September 2012 07:50 PM

Well, no pic to post…but render completed in 3 hr 12 mins…dirty rotten kids…closed Studio before I could save the render.  I was guessing about 3 hrs, based on other stuff I’ve done. 

In my general experience, on my machine, 4.x is about twice as fast as 3A and the stand alone is usually at least twice as fast as 4.x, if not much more than that.

File->Save Last Render

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Posted: 28 September 2012 07:58 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 78 ]
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from my experience that only works if you don’t close studio

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Posted: 28 September 2012 07:58 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 79 ]
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Kendall Sears - 28 September 2012 12:30 PM

Working with the materials is always a good thing to do regardless.  Of course, you’ll want to use those materials optimised for the render engine being targeted.  Paolo’s Reality does a good job of converting base settings to Lux, but the conversion is nowhere near as good as using materials optimized for Lux.

Similarly, many models used in DS have materials that are set for Poser/Firefly and not DS/3Delight.  Using models “out of the box” is likely to get you a render that is of poor quality simply because the model was not set up correctly.  Almost every model will load into DS with the lighting model set to “Plastic” and with Textures/Bump/Displacement set to Firefly’s limited settings.  In order to get access to the real power of DS, one has to scrap the extremely limited Poser settings and load in a more expanded surface set.  Whether that is UserSurface(2), (E)HSS, or some custom expanded set.  Once one is loaded the material settings really open up.  The options abound, and many look at the number of options and their eyes glaze over.  The abilities of DS haven’t even been scratched.  The whole world of Renderman shaders is out there.

This is a great point. I’ve only done some limited testing but I swear the convert to UberSurface2 preset alone is the closest thing I’ve come to a “make better” button in DAZ for a lot of things if the prop didn’t come with DAZ-specific MATs. I’ve done some side by side tests and it just seems to make things look more real, even without tweaking anything else from the canned settings it took. Even that small bit of “tweaking” goes a pretty far way, then combine that with moving any bump map into the displacement channel instead and playing with those settings a bit and you can really start to make things pop. I’ve not really had the chance to dig any further than that but I’ve been very happy with what that’s done for me.

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Posted: 28 September 2012 08:08 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 80 ]
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Kendall Sears - 28 September 2012 07:55 PM
mjc1016 - 28 September 2012 07:50 PM

Well, no pic to post…but render completed in 3 hr 12 mins…dirty rotten kids…closed Studio before I could save the render.  I was guessing about 3 hrs, based on other stuff I’ve done. 

In my general experience, on my machine, 4.x is about twice as fast as 3A and the stand alone is usually at least twice as fast as 4.x, if not much more than that.

File->Save Last Render

Kendall

I happened to have the temp folder open, looking for an orphan shadowmap that was eating up 90+ MBs of space and noticed that the Render folder was empty and the pic was nowhere to be found, so I didn’t even bother to reopen studio.  So it does seem like 4.5.0.137 actually does empty the temp file when closed. 

I read the time from the log…render completed in 3 hrs 12 mins and whatever seconds, in whatever format it actually says it in…

I’ve gotten awfully paranoid on drive space lately, because something I did the other day caused the .xsessions error log to shoot up to almost 6 GB in size.  Yeah, I was able to track down the offending file in a console log in and remove it…the the GUI started working again.  So I’ve been going around getting rid of all the junk files that seem to accumulate over time (like that 90 MB shadowmap dated from March…)

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Posted: 28 September 2012 08:21 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 81 ]
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mjc1016 - 28 September 2012 08:08 PM
Kendall Sears - 28 September 2012 07:55 PM
mjc1016 - 28 September 2012 07:50 PM

Well, no pic to post…but render completed in 3 hr 12 mins…dirty rotten kids…closed Studio before I could save the render.  I was guessing about 3 hrs, based on other stuff I’ve done. 

In my general experience, on my machine, 4.x is about twice as fast as 3A and the stand alone is usually at least twice as fast as 4.x, if not much more than that.

File->Save Last Render

Kendall

I happened to have the temp folder open, looking for an orphan shadowmap that was eating up 90+ MBs of space and noticed that the Render folder was empty and the pic was nowhere to be found, so I didn’t even bother to reopen studio.  So it does seem like 4.5.0.137 actually does empty the temp file when closed. 

I read the time from the log…render completed in 3 hrs 12 mins and whatever seconds, in whatever format it actually says it in…

I’ve gotten awfully paranoid on drive space lately, because something I did the other day caused the .xsessions error log to shoot up to almost 6 GB in size.  Yeah, I was able to track down the offending file in a console log in and remove it…the the GUI started working again.  So I’ve been going around getting rid of all the junk files that seem to accumulate over time (like that 90 MB shadowmap dated from March…)

It’s a good idea to watch the Shader storage areas as well.  I’ve had the internal calls to tdlmake go crazy and use HUGE amounts of disk space.  Truthfully though, I’ve pretty much stopped using the internal rendering as I have a 1 command setup for converting the RIBs and I just use the standalone.  It also allows me to continue to play while the render chugs.

If you’ve got the tmp cleaner daemon running in cron, you might want to consider linking the Studio4/temp area to /tmp and allowing the daemon to clean up anything left behind.

Kendall

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Posted: 28 September 2012 08:30 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 82 ]
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adacey - 28 September 2012 07:58 PM
Kendall Sears - 28 September 2012 12:30 PM

Working with the materials is always a good thing to do regardless.  Of course, you’ll want to use those materials optimised for the render engine being targeted.  Paolo’s Reality does a good job of converting base settings to Lux, but the conversion is nowhere near as good as using materials optimized for Lux.

Similarly, many models used in DS have materials that are set for Poser/Firefly and not DS/3Delight.  Using models “out of the box” is likely to get you a render that is of poor quality simply because the model was not set up correctly.  Almost every model will load into DS with the lighting model set to “Plastic” and with Textures/Bump/Displacement set to Firefly’s limited settings.  In order to get access to the real power of DS, one has to scrap the extremely limited Poser settings and load in a more expanded surface set.  Whether that is UserSurface(2), (E)HSS, or some custom expanded set.  Once one is loaded the material settings really open up.  The options abound, and many look at the number of options and their eyes glaze over.  The abilities of DS haven’t even been scratched.  The whole world of Renderman shaders is out there.

This is a great point. I’ve only done some limited testing but I swear the convert to UberSurface2 preset alone is the closest thing I’ve come to a “make better” button in DAZ for a lot of things if the prop didn’t come with DAZ-specific MATs. I’ve done some side by side tests and it just seems to make things look more real, even without tweaking anything else from the canned settings it took. Even that small bit of “tweaking” goes a pretty far way, then combine that with moving any bump map into the displacement channel instead and playing with those settings a bit and you can really start to make things pop. I’ve not really had the chance to dig any further than that but I’ve been very happy with what that’s done for me.

The skin setting in that render was a heavily tweaked default material, no Uber.  I didn’t want Uber anything in it…because in 3A, in my experience anything Uber goes even slower.  I believe the 7 hrs is solely due to the heavy transmapping and raytraced shadows.  That is one setting that stayed the same for all three 3Delight renders.  I want to run a render with everything Uber converted. 

I had the skin settings tweaked for Lux, but DS pulled one of it’s “I’m having a tantrum and won’t save anything” fits when I tried to export it, so I didn’t bother to go back and redo them…I should, because I know that will improve the render immensely.  The other thing that was annoying was the tiling on the lace wrap.  It took me several tries to get it right, because it wasn’t converting correctly.  I don’t use Reality, but rather LuxrenderDS (which is only good in DS3A and doesn’t even support some of the latest features of Lux…it’s basically stuck at the 0.9 feature set), so I’m not sure if Reality would have gotten it right in one shot or not.

But over all, the latest version of Studio and the stand alone 3Delight make a perfect team. On Linux there is a very definite speed advantage (2x or more) to using it. Even the Uber items are converting/recompiling now and more of the 3Delight feature set has been made accessible in Studio, so manually recompiling shaders or hand editing RIBs to get them to run correctly is pretty much a thing of the past.  The key factor is to make sure you always use the RIB inside the _collected folder that’s generated when you save to RIB with the collect feature enabled.

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Posted: 28 September 2012 08:31 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 83 ]
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Its actually kind of funny when Reality 1st came out my attempt to use it was a total failure. Add 18 more months of 3deeing and I can now can use it. I am not taking anything away from 3Dlight its been very good to me and have produced many nice renders with it as well

http://fav.me/d4jagnp  http://fav.me/d4jagrp http://fav.me/d4h7uuk http://fav.me/d4gnln0 this one wad one withing minutes with basic lighting http://fav.me/d3cvi4w

Some trek ships 3Dlight http://fav.me/d4gnlkm Lux http://fav.me/d50d4ql I understand all about long render times some of my early Lux renders took several days then i got wise with lighting and practice and cut it down to hours for the most part..

I also “cheat” by using PS to get rid of some of that “noise” Lux tends to leave behind that would probably take a week to clear up….Kind of like when 3Dlight keeps spinning endlessly at the last leaf of strand of hair…

Edit forgot to mention when i tried using Uber surface the surface would all turn solid grey and when I attempted to apply HSS to skin it would make the character look like a chimo victim (No offense to anyone who may be suffering from cancer :(

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Posted: 28 September 2012 08:34 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 84 ]
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Kendall Sears - 28 September 2012 08:21 PM

If you’ve got the tmp cleaner daemon running in cron, you might want to consider linking the Studio4/temp area to /tmp and allowing the daemon to clean up anything left behind.

Kendall

That’s a good idea…

Now, on a different issue..one that needs it’s own thread.

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Posted: 28 September 2012 08:39 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 85 ]
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mjc1016 - 28 September 2012 08:34 PM
Kendall Sears - 28 September 2012 08:21 PM

If you’ve got the tmp cleaner daemon running in cron, you might want to consider linking the Studio4/temp area to /tmp and allowing the daemon to clean up anything left behind.

Kendall

That’s a good idea…

Now, on a different issue..one that needs it’s own thread.

Oh, since there are some WINErs in here, did anyone see my thread about getting DS4.5 running in Wine64?  Sorry for the slightly OT folks. grin


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Posted: 28 September 2012 09:07 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 86 ]
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Kendall Sears - 28 September 2012 08:39 PM
mjc1016 - 28 September 2012 08:34 PM
Kendall Sears - 28 September 2012 08:21 PM

If you’ve got the tmp cleaner daemon running in cron, you might want to consider linking the Studio4/temp area to /tmp and allowing the daemon to clean up anything left behind.

Kendall

That’s a good idea…

Now, on a different issue..one that needs it’s own thread.

Oh, since there are some WINErs in here, did anyone see my thread about getting DS4.5 running in Wine64?  Sorry for the slightly OT folks. grin


Kendall

No…

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Posted: 29 September 2012 10:06 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 87 ]
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mjc1016 - 27 September 2012 07:24 PM

You could always copy the files and then manually edit the RIB…it’s a simple text file.

And whenever I’ve ‘collected and localized’ I’ve gotten everything (but then again, I haven’t done the point based AO)

Kendall Sears - 27 September 2012 07:49 PM

The “Collect and Localize” check box is in render settings tab in the advanced area.  It is grayed out until you activate “Render to RIB”

The files are collected into the “scene_collected” directory.  You will need to edit the .RIB in a text editor that can handle over a million lines of code.  Look for a reference to “brickyard” in a path.  Redirect that path to the location of the collection directory and you’re good to go.

OOPS!  You may also need to look for a reference to “Studio4\temp” (this path can vary dependent on your preferences, but this is the default) and redirect that to the same place.  It will depend on the specific shader whether there will be the “temp” reference or not.  It may not always exist in the RIB.  The same with the “brickyard” and “old_brickyard” references.

Thank you guys! So I’ll be setting batch file copy & text replace utilities up meanwhile I’m looking for the script documentation to DS4 (is this the right link for the current version? Still WIP… http://docs.daz3d.com/doku.php/public/software/dazstudio/4/referenceguide/scripting/start ). I’ll go through the DS3 script docs once more, but I’m not sure if what I’m looking for is not a new feature…

Kendall, this is where the “collect & localize” checkbox is indeed normally located when using 3Delight, but in the “scripted 3Delight” option with the point-based AO script, they seem to have forgotten to put it there. Should be dead easy to fix this by editing those scripts ...if this particular feature isn’t broken, of course. I have yet to check if the DzQuat class has been fixed for DS4 scripting, for instance…

mjc1016 - 28 September 2012 07:50 PM

In my general experience, on my machine, 4.x is about twice as fast as 3A and the stand alone is usually at least twice as fast as 4.x, if not much more than that.

Same here. I was totally blown away with the speed of 10.x standalone. For dual core machines, it is THE way to go.

mjc1016 - 28 September 2012 08:30 PM

I believe the 7 hrs is solely due to the heavy transmapping and raytraced shadows.

Might very well be. If I remember correctly, raytracing performance has been significantly improved for the 10.x 3Delight versions as compared to the 9.x ones.

I once did a simple test with transmapped hair in DS3A: a mid-quality UE, a distant light, and a lone fully dressed figure using UberSurface materials for everything, with SSS turned on for skin (it was before we discovered the right scale and shading rate, but SSS never added that much overhead for me outside of using GI, even with HQ shading rates) and AO turned off for transmapped hair. Render time was about 10 minutes with a DSM and 1 h 27 mins with the only change being shadow set to raytraced.  Not even mentioning the fact that from the artistic POV I like the look DSM tend to give much better… I’d attach the images but they’re on another computer right now, sorry.

I haven’t yet had a chance to try GI (the photon mapping method) in DS4.5. Has anyone?

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Posted: 29 September 2012 10:45 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 88 ]
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Mustakettu85 - 29 September 2012 10:06 AM

...snip…

Kendall Sears - 27 September 2012 07:49 PM

The “Collect and Localize” check box is in render settings tab in the advanced area.  It is grayed out until you activate “Render to RIB”

The files are collected into the “scene_collected” directory.  You will need to edit the .RIB in a text editor that can handle over a million lines of code.  Look for a reference to “brickyard” in a path.  Redirect that path to the location of the collection directory and you’re good to go.

OOPS!  You may also need to look for a reference to “Studio4\temp” (this path can vary dependent on your preferences, but this is the default) and redirect that to the same place.  It will depend on the specific shader whether there will be the “temp” reference or not.  It may not always exist in the RIB.  The same with the “brickyard” and “old_brickyard” references.

Thank you guys! So I’ll be setting batch file copy & text replace utilities up meanwhile I’m looking for the script documentation to DS4 (is this the right link for the current version? Still WIP… http://docs.daz3d.com/doku.php/public/software/dazstudio/4/referenceguide/scripting/start ). I’ll go through the DS3 script docs once more, but I’m not sure if what I’m looking for is not a new feature…

Kendall, this is where the “collect & localize” checkbox is indeed normally located when using 3Delight, but in the “scripted 3Delight” option with the point-based AO script, they seem to have forgotten to put it there. Should be dead easy to fix this by editing those scripts ...if this particular feature isn’t broken, of course. I have yet to check if the DzQuat class has been fixed for DS4 scripting, for instance…

Well looky there, you are indeed correct!  I hadn’t noticed that it was missing there.  But then again, I don’t use the scripted mode much.  It could be that the scripting engine needs the files in specific places in order to do its job.

mjc1016 - 28 September 2012 07:50 PM

In my general experience, on my machine, 4.x is about twice as fast as 3A and the stand alone is usually at least twice as fast as 4.x, if not much more than that.

Same here. I was totally blown away with the speed of 10.x standalone. For dual core machines, it is THE way to go.

mjc1016 - 28 September 2012 08:30 PM

I believe the 7 hrs is solely due to the heavy transmapping and raytraced shadows.

Might very well be. If I remember correctly, raytracing performance has been significantly improved for the 10.x 3Delight versions as compared to the 9.x ones.

I once did a simple test with transmapped hair in DS3A: a mid-quality UE, a distant light, and a lone fully dressed figure using UberSurface materials for everything, with SSS turned on for skin (it was before we discovered the right scale and shading rate, but SSS never added that much overhead for me outside of using GI, even with HQ shading rates) and AO turned off for transmapped hair. Render time was about 10 minutes with a DSM and 1 h 27 mins with the only change being shadow set to raytraced.  Not even mentioning the fact that from the artistic POV I like the look DSM tend to give much better… I’d attach the images but they’re on another computer right now, sorry.

I haven’t yet had a chance to try GI (the photon mapping method) in DS4.5. Has anyone?

The raytracing engine in 3DL was improved drastically in the 10. series.  There was an issue where starting up had huge overhead.  That overhead has been completely removed and the raytracer can now start pretty much immediately.  Also, the speed of the tracer itself was improved.  According to reports, it should now be faster to use the raytracer than the shadow maps.  I have not personally tested this as I don’t normally use shadow maps to start with.  Now, on to your question… I haven’t tried the GI mode in 4.5 yet.  I guess I should.

If only we could convince DNA to get on the GPU assisted wagon.

Kendall

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Posted: 29 September 2012 11:48 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 89 ]
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@mjc1016 : could you post the specs of your pc and what you used as a graphic card and also what’s really in the scene and you render settings and resolution please? It’s difficult to have a real idea with just your pictures

The latest 3DL is indeed very quick and It never needed more than 1 hour since the engine update. Even tried some scene with raytraced reflexions, volumetrics, SSS and other things. By the way, did you notice the UE GI and indirect light now work better?

Btw I’m on windows and the standalone with 2 cores is slower than the internal with 4 cores.

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Posted: 29 September 2012 12:08 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 90 ]
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Kendall Sears - 29 September 2012 10:45 AM

Well looky there, you are indeed correct!  I hadn’t noticed that it was missing there.  But then again, I don’t use the scripted mode much.  It could be that the scripting engine needs the files in specific places in order to do its job.

Could be, but judging from the scripts, I’m not sure this is the case. The scripts simply implement two passes needed to generate the point cloud first and then render. The only hindrance I can think of might be the standard “collect and localise” subroutine in DS not being configured to recognise the .ptc as one of the files that would need to be collected… but to test this I need the docs.

Kendall Sears - 29 September 2012 10:45 AM

The raytracing engine in 3DL was improved drastically in the 10. series.  There was an issue where starting up had huge overhead.  That overhead has been completely removed and the raytracer can now start pretty much immediately.  Also, the speed of the tracer itself was improved.  According to reports, it should now be faster to use the raytracer than the shadow maps.  I have not personally tested this as I don’t normally use shadow maps to start with.  Now, on to your question… I haven’t tried the GI mode in 4.5 yet.  I guess I should.

If only we could convince DNA to get on the GPU assisted wagon.

Thanks for the info! I should transfer that scene into 4.5 and see how it fares. I generally don’t like raytraced shadows because they require a softness percentage to look more natural, and those softness calculations used to be a real performance hog as well, but if that has been dealt with by chance, I might consider using them more often - especially for larger scenes like landscapes, where DSMs can get unwieldy with higher sample rates and a lot of detail in the scene.

...I wonder if blurred raytraced reflections are now faster. So many things to test, so little time…

As for GPU assisted rendering… I guess they will take advantage of this, in due time. From what I’ve heard, and correct me if I’m wrong, GPU acceleration is not that widely used in film industry yet, and isn’t 3Delight primarily geared at movie studios?

 

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