Digital Art Zone

 
   
4 of 6
4
How do I get a reasonable light? Less intense shadows?
Posted: 19 October 2012 12:42 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 46 ]
Active Member
Avatar
RankRank
Total Posts:  732
Joined  2006-05-26

Alright, so I’ve attempted this again and this time I think I’ve got it more or less right. I applied a map to bleach the water along the shoreline to give the appearance of clarity. The mapping allows for the color to return at slightly deeper depths. I’ve also worked a good bit on the caustic pattern which is what drives the detail in the shallow regions just like in the reference photos.

I am still figuring out a way to fix the caustic sharp edge along the shoreline. This is caused because the True Parallel Light is flat but the terrain water surface is not so they don’t always strike the island terrain in the same place. To some degree I like the idea of a little bit of clear water with caustic introduced smoothly so that’s what I’m after.

Feedback as always is greatly appreciated.

Image Attachments
AA_12.jpgAA_16.jpg
 Signature 

Please view my Daz3d User Gallery
http://www.daz3d.com/gallery/#users/465/

Profile
 
 
Posted: 19 October 2012 01:25 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 47 ]
Power Member
Avatar
RankRankRank
Total Posts:  1496
Joined  2011-09-25

@Rashad:  While the edges of the water in the second image look better, more what a person would expect to see, the water itself looks better in the first image.  Is there a way to get the edge affect with the water of the first image?

 Signature 

If you constantly look backward, it’s guaranteed you’ll run into something on your forward journey.
My Gallery Page: GussNemo’s Efforts

Profile
 
 
Posted: 29 October 2012 12:01 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 48 ]
Active Member
Avatar
RankRank
Total Posts:  732
Joined  2006-05-26
GussNemo - 19 October 2012 01:25 PM

@Rashad:  While the edges of the water in the second image look better, more what a person would expect to see, the water itself looks better in the first image.  Is there a way to get the edge affect with the water of the first image?

Gotta say I love your new goofy avatar!

I tried to use the same material for the water in both of the shots the only difference is the bleaching along the edge.

Here is a new attempt where I have made the water a bit wavier and hopefully more natural. I also think I got the caustic scaling right. Feedback is greatly appreciated. Thanks for your time.

Image Attachments
AA_21.jpg
 Signature 

Please view my Daz3d User Gallery
http://www.daz3d.com/gallery/#users/465/

Profile
 
 
Posted: 29 October 2012 07:37 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 49 ]
Active Member
RankRank
Total Posts:  506
Joined  2004-06-12

Rashad, you are a peasant with a talent for terrible water, and for the life of me I can’t think why!

How can one who comes up with clever velvet contraptions be so bloody bad at water?

The water looks strongly self-coloured, the sand colour looks off, and one thing that might be making it a lot worse is that you’re not blending the line between the edge of the water and the sand.  Try making the sand as shiny as the water at the edges but gradually tapering off into a dull finish for the sand.  Just experiment with how much feather you need.  The reflection and specularity of the water needs to be blended into the dull off the sand, but the blend needs to be done on the sand.

Remember, when sand gets wet it is getting coated in the same reflective and specular properties of the water because it’s getting coated in water, it’s only the texture of the sand itself that dissipates the gloss!

Profile
 
 
Posted: 29 October 2012 10:48 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 50 ]
Power Member
Avatar
RankRankRank
Total Posts:  1496
Joined  2011-09-25

@Rashad:  Thought I’d change avatars to fit how I’ve been feeling most days.  All this learning has me feeling like the avatar looks.  Now if I can only remember to save the work I spend time creating.

I think the water surface of your latest has the right amount of agitation, but is too dark for shallow water.  Still, it’s better than I can accomplish at this time.

 Signature 

If you constantly look backward, it’s guaranteed you’ll run into something on your forward journey.
My Gallery Page: GussNemo’s Efforts

Profile
 
 
Posted: 31 October 2012 04:30 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 51 ]
Active Member
Avatar
RankRank
Total Posts:  732
Joined  2006-05-26
pumeco - 29 October 2012 07:37 PM

Rashad, you are a peasant with a talent for terrible water, and for the life of me I can’t think why!

How can one who comes up with clever velvet contraptions be so bloody bad at water?

The water looks strongly self-coloured, the sand colour looks off, and one thing that might be making it a lot worse is that you’re not blending the line between the edge of the water and the sand.  Try making the sand as shiny as the water at the edges but gradually tapering off into a dull finish for the sand.  Just experiment with how much feather you need.  The reflection and specularity of the water needs to be blended into the dull off the sand, but the blend needs to be done on the sand.

Remember, when sand gets wet it is getting coated in the same reflective and specular properties of the water because it’s getting coated in water, it’s only the texture of the sand itself that dissipates the gloss!

Just want to thank you and Peter for pushing me farther on the water. I dont know if I can ever get it where it needs to be.

The subject is more challenging than it at first appears.

The sand is an interesting consideration. The darkening of the sand along the water line is caused by the reflection filter. So the higher the value I assign to the reflection the more energy/brightness it subtracts from the diffuse color creating the darkness along the water’s edge. I would use more reflection but it would darken the sand along the water even more than it already does, as it’s already a bit too dark for me. I should also state that this project is rendered in standard AA, I dont have premium effect options available to me, no blurred reflection or transmissions, no dof or any other tools that one might employ. I cannot even use TA. The main issue is the render time especially with the cloud slab, pretty much makes premium effects unreachable.

David has a trick where he uses an additional terrain that sits on top of the sand along the shore to produce the wet sand receding back into the sea ideal. This idea is great but it too runs into the same basic problem that there is no way to smoothly progress from a dry to wet surface. There is always a distinct line where the water effect starts. As Peter notes, it is a CG giveaway and one I do hope to overcome. I do not know of any way to blend the water edge into the sand, however I am very open to any suggestions of ways to do it.

tricky stuff.

I’ve been researching water and how it gets its color and I find that water does have some color of its own. Not sure if it comes from the blue/green algae or what, but the water has distinct color, it isnt all just reflection from the sky. It only appears to be clear in the shallower areas near the shore, but at deeper depths the water is far from clear.  If you think back to the reference image we discussed before, the fifth in that series I uploaded where you initially felt the refraction was wrong, you will notice how the water seems clear along the shore but deep blue a little farther out. That blueness is not a reflection of the sky, because as you will observe that the sky and the water are very different shades of blue, which would not be the case if the water was merely reflecting the color of the sky.

Well, I am in the process of tearing the entire project up and rebuilding it so there’s a chance I might get some more ideas.

 

 Signature 

Please view my Daz3d User Gallery
http://www.daz3d.com/gallery/#users/465/

Profile
 
 
Posted: 01 November 2012 02:01 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 52 ]
Addict
Avatar
RankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  3556
Joined  2004-10-01
Rashad Carter - 31 October 2012 04:30 PM

I’ve been researching water and how it gets its color and I find that water does have some color of its own. Not sure if it comes from the blue/green algae or what, but the water has distinct color, it isnt all just reflection from the sky.

I cannot contribute much to all this but the statement above is correct. Though I don’t know about the sea water a lot, I know why there are rivers that look milky. I once collected a bottle of such whitish nontransparent water. It took 6 month until it was clear and the sediments settled on the bottom. Just moving the bottle a bit careless made the completely clear water milky again.

 

 Signature 

**  [ Stuff by David Brinnen and myself**  [ My DAZ 3D Gallery**  [ My Website**  OPC 4565 **

Profile
 
 
Posted: 01 November 2012 12:59 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 53 ]
Active Member
RankRank
Total Posts:  506
Joined  2004-06-12
Rashad Carter - 31 October 2012 04:30 PM

I do not know of any way to blend the water edge into the sand, however I am very open to any suggestions of ways to do it.

What? - Just use Specular and Reflection Maps!

Forget the scene for a second and just play around with the surface of, say, a tilted cube dipping into a water-plane at a sharp angle.  Play with the feathering to your hearts content, and when you’re happy, apply the settings to your scene.  I know what an obsessive peasant you are for doing things in super-detailed environments!

If you only have two basic objects in your scene you will be more prepared to tweak and it will happen a lot quicker.  You’re mating two objects/materials, so that’s all you need to test it.

Profile
 
 
Posted: 01 November 2012 01:26 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 54 ]
Active Member
Avatar
RankRank
Total Posts:  732
Joined  2006-05-26
pumeco - 01 November 2012 12:59 PM
Rashad Carter - 31 October 2012 04:30 PM

I do not know of any way to blend the water edge into the sand, however I am very open to any suggestions of ways to do it.

What? - Just use Specular and Reflection Maps!

Forget the scene for a second and just play around with the surface of, say, a tilted cube dipping into a water-plane at a sharp angle.  Play with the feathering to your hearts content, and when you’re happy, apply the settings to your scene.  I know what an obsessive peasant you are for doing things in super-detailed environments!

If you only have two basic objects in your scene you will be more prepared to tweak and it will happen a lot quicker.  You’re mating two objects/materials, so that’s all you need to test it.

I am already doing what you suggest. The dark sand touching the water is dark due to a reflection map. It’s hard to see from here but if you get close enough to the sand you will see reflections along the dark sand touching the water. For specular, I’m not even using any so far. The issue is marrying the water terrain smoothly into the sand terrain, and for that I am at a loss. The water is not a flat plane, it is a dynamic terrain surface so specular and reflection being highly perspective dependent dont behave as on a flat plane. I am hitting a wall with the water and it is frustrating. If I had access to the internet from home I would post up the material settings I used for the sand and the water.

If you could help me out with visual examples that would be great. I know this seems easy but its much harder than it looks.

Again, thanks for taking the time to help me out.

 Signature 

Please view my Daz3d User Gallery
http://www.daz3d.com/gallery/#users/465/

Profile
 
 
Posted: 01 November 2012 01:44 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 55 ]
Active Member
RankRank
Total Posts:  506
Joined  2004-06-12

I don’t even know my way around the Terrain Editor (I never use it, I do plain boring stuff) so I can’t really do that.

I assume you’re after a way to make the maps on the sand follow the modeled edge of the water so that they meet up along the whole surface.  I’ve never done it myself, but if I had such a project where I needed to do that, all I would do is this:

1 - Place the water plane and terrain so that they intersect and create a waterline.
2 - Shape the terrain so that it creates the waterline you want.
3 - Make the water opaque to give a strong outline (this will be your template).
4 - Do a Top View render so that you clearly see the outline of the water.
5 - Load the render into PSP, Photo-Paint, PhotoPlus, or whatever image editor you use.
6 - Use the waters edge as a template to create your Specular and Reflection maps.

When you apply those maps to your scene, they should follow the waters edge perfectly no matter how basic or complicated the edge is.  Like I said, I’ve never tried it, but that’s definitely the way I would do such a thing.

Profile
 
 
Posted: 01 November 2012 02:34 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 56 ]
Active Member
Avatar
RankRank
Total Posts:  732
Joined  2006-05-26
pumeco - 01 November 2012 01:44 PM

I don’t even know my way around the Terrain Editor (I never use it, I do plain boring stuff) so I can’t really do that.

I assume you’re after a way to make the maps on the sand follow the modeled edge of the water so that they meet up along the whole surface.  I’ve never done it myself, but if I had such a project where I needed to do that, all I would do is this:

1 - Place the water plane and terrain so that they intersect and create a waterline.
2 - Shape the terrain so that it creates the waterline you want.
3 - Make the water opaque to give a strong outline (this will be your template).
4 - Do a Top View render so that you clearly see the outline of the water.
5 - Load the render into PSP, Photo-Paint, PhotoPlus, or whatever image editor you use.
6 - Use the waters edge as a template to create your Specular and Reflection maps.

When you apply those maps to your scene, they should follow the waters edge perfectly no matter how basic or complicated the edge is.  Like I say, never tried it, but that’s definitely the way I would do such a thing.

Yes, I am already doing what you suggest. Actually, the dark sand comes from an altitude filter so reflection only happens along the water line, but with the reflection comes along with a diffuse color subtraction. The darker the sand the greater the reflection.

Ah, but that is just it. I am not marrying a water plane on a terrain as you might be thinking, I am marrying two terrains themselves. The water itself is a terrain, not a flat plane. Terrain on terrain is the problem. A flat water plane looks especially horrible for several reasons which is why I chose to use a terrain for the water.

I’ve hit a wall on this water issue. I think it might even be a Bryce limitation, but I hate blaming the software. I will keep working at it.

 Signature 

Please view my Daz3d User Gallery
http://www.daz3d.com/gallery/#users/465/

Profile
 
 
Posted: 01 November 2012 02:38 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 57 ]
Administrator
Avatar
RankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  15992
Joined  2003-10-09

Using it slightly differently than you want to Rashad, but I duplicated my terrain, erased all but the very edge of it to get a terrain like this, which I then moved a tiny tad on the x and z and applied a texture.  I used a foamy sort of texture, as mine was for a river.

Just a thought

Image Attachments
foam_edge_for_water.jpg
 Signature 

Chohole’s Space        Neil’Vs Freebies and stuff        Autumn Bryce Rendering Challenge        September Freebie Challenge
My DAZ 3D Gallery    11915

Profile
 
 
Posted: 01 November 2012 02:52 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 58 ]
Active Member
Avatar
RankRank
Total Posts:  732
Joined  2006-05-26

Forgot to add that I am using a top view image to produce the bleaching of the water along the shore. I masked the island so I could get just the water and then I applied an image with white along the shore allowing color the from the blend in a little bit away.

 Signature 

Please view my Daz3d User Gallery
http://www.daz3d.com/gallery/#users/465/

Profile
 
 
Posted: 01 November 2012 02:58 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 59 ]
Active Member
RankRank
Total Posts:  506
Joined  2004-06-12
Rashad Carter - 01 November 2012 02:34 PM

Ah, but that is just it. I am not marrying a water plane on a terrain as you might be thinking, I am marrying two terrains themselves. The water itself is a terrain, not a flat plane. Terrain on terrain is the problem. A flat water plane looks especially horrible for several reasons which is why I chose to use a terrain for the water.

Out of curiosity, what difference does it make that you’re using a terrain for the water?

It’s better to use a terrain anyway, and I don’t see what difference it makes to the procedure, I don’t understand why you can’t create the template in the same way.  Let me know what the difference is so that I understand what you’re getting at, or what it is that’s holding you back on it.

Profile
 
 
Posted: 01 November 2012 03:00 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 60 ]
Active Member
RankRank
Total Posts:  506
Joined  2004-06-12

I’ll check back in an hour, Red Dwarf X is about to start :mrgreen:

Profile
 
 
   
4 of 6
4