Creating Morph for Genesis

edited December 1969 in Hexagon Discussion

I have three issues happening.

The first is that when I send it over the daz bridge from hex, daz creates a genesis objection, rather than giving an option to load as a morph.

Secondly, when I create an obj file for the Morph Loader Pro, I get a morph that also makes genesis smaller. Wild guess would be about a tenth of the normal size.

The third is that I'm missing the step that loads the morph for use next time I open Daz.

On the plus side, I've figured out a way to change colors in the slider area. :D

Comments

  • JimmyC_2009JimmyC_2009 Posts: 8,307
    edited December 1969

    lucynsky said:
    I have three issues happening.

    The first is that when I send it over the daz bridge from hex, daz creates a genesis objection, rather than giving an option to load as a morph.

    Secondly, when I create an obj file for the Morph Loader Pro, I get a morph that also makes genesis smaller. Wild guess would be about a tenth of the normal size.

    The third is that I'm missing the step that loads the morph for use next time I open Daz.

    On the plus side, I've figured out a way to change colors in the slider area. :D

    How are you doing this, from the beginning?

    First send Genesis over the bridge to Hex (do not open Hex first, let DS4 do that)
    Move your vertices around to create your morph.
    When done, send it back to DS4 via the bridge again.
    You should get Morph Loder popping up at that point.

    What does it say at the top of your version of DS4. Does it say Standard or Pro?

  • edited December 1969

    Thank you for your reply! It worked like a charm.

    I have Daz Studio Pro 4.02. Now to keep that morph from disappearing...

  • edited December 1969

    And why does Hex send over an object when I open up the same hex file to resend the morph over to Daz? How can I either change it, or use it to create a morph?

    It seems illogical to only allow freshly created changes on genesis to be sent as morphs.

  • JimmyC_2009JimmyC_2009 Posts: 8,307
    edited December 1969

    You need to send the object from DS4 first, or it has no idea that you are trying to create a morph. Save your morphed figure as a Scene file in DS4, open it again, and go through the usual procedures to send it to Hex.

    DS4 needs to know the position of the vertices to start with, or it cannot create a motph for the new positions.

  • edited December 1969

    Hmm.

    All right. So it seems in terms of morphs, if I wanted to create a morph and save it to work on later, I'd send it back to DS4, save it as a scene, then later send it back to Hex, work on it, send back to DS4 as a morph to save, etc.

    Almost pointless to save a Hex file in this work flow.

    It's an interesting way to get the mathematical answer of 2. :) Also known as, same result, different way of doing it.

    The tutorial at http://www.daz3d.com/forums/discussion/6483/ suggests there are ways to save as an obj file and then use the Morph Loader Pro to import the morph. I've a feeling that the scaling is kicking my butt. But it would be another way to get the mathematical answer of 2.

  • JimmyC_2009JimmyC_2009 Posts: 8,307
    edited December 1969

    You can just save the part that you have morphed, like a face for example, and use that as a 'Morph Target' using Morph Loader (Pro). The vertex numbers will be correct, and when DS loads, say Genesis, it knows where the vertices are located, using the target, it can then move them to where they are required for the morph. All clever stuff :)

  • patience55patience55 Posts: 6,198
    edited December 1969

    lucynsky said:
    Thank you for your reply! It worked like a charm.

    I have Daz Studio Pro 4.02. Now to keep that morph from disappearing...

    You have to save it. File > Save as > Support Asset > dsf morph file

    Just be 'very' careful to pick 'only' the morph you just created. Just one tick at that place, the program fills in the rest.

  • RoygeeRoygee Posts: 1,888
    edited December 1969

    Quick questions now that we have the experts' attention. In previous versions of DS, if I used the bridge to do a morph, on sending it back, i would get a dialogue asking whether I wanted to do a morph or prop. Then a place to name the morph and if I remember correctly, something to do with materials. Shows this isn't something I make a habit of. Lol

    With DS4.5 all I get is the choice to make a morph or not and the morph is called "Morph" - no choice of naming or anything else.

    Secondly, if I export Genesis, or the head of an older .cr2 figure, morph it and bring it back as .obj using Morph Loader Pro, I invariable get something to the effect that it does not match. I know how to do morphs, so the problem isn't with the modelling or scaling.

    Can you guys give me an idea of what is going on here?

  • patience55patience55 Posts: 6,198
    edited December 1969

    Roygee said:
    Quick questions now that we have the experts' attention. In previous versions of DS, if I used the bridge to do a morph, on sending it back, i would get a dialogue asking whether I wanted to do a morph or prop. Then a place to name the morph and if I remember correctly, something to do with materials. Shows this isn't something I make a habit of. Lol

    With DS4.5 all I get is the choice to make a morph or not and the morph is called "Morph" - no choice of naming or anything else.

    Secondly, if I export Genesis, or the head of an older .cr2 figure, morph it and bring it back as .obj using Morph Loader Pro, I invariable get something to the effect that it does not match. I know how to do morphs, so the problem isn't with the modelling or scaling.

    Can you guys give me an idea of what is going on here?

    In 4.0: Edit > Preferences > "interface" => check the drop down arrow for Hexagon. Either "Show Basic Options" [that's the one I use for "little morphs"] or "show advanced options". These affect which dialogue box appears upon returning to D/S from Hexagon.

  • RoygeeRoygee Posts: 1,888
    edited December 1969

    Thank you Patience :)

    If I recall correctly, you had a similar problem with importing a morphed .obj using Morphloader - did you manage to get it resolved?

  • patience55patience55 Posts: 6,198
    edited September 2012

    Roygee said:
    Thank you Patience :)

    If I recall correctly, you had a similar problem with importing a morphed .obj using Morphloader - did you manage to get it resolved?

    Don't think it was I. I've only been creating "little morphs" in D/S4 - anything involving the older characters and loading morph .obj files I'm still using D/S3 and the free inj/rem script.

    edit: One major difference for all these morphs for Genesis ... in D/S4 make sure the Genesis 'root' is picked. In D/S3 we'd choose the head; use morph loader to load the head morph.obj and carry on. In D/S4 all morphs are created for the 'root'; not the parts. In the option boxes we then pick the path where we want it to show up on the Parameters and/or Shaping Tab ... but that all has nothing to do with loading the morph in the first place.

    Post edited by patience55 on
  • RoygeeRoygee Posts: 1,888
    edited December 1969

    Yep, that script worked great. I lost DS3 when my C drive went pear-shaped and haven't had the need to re-install.

    Anyhow, any morphing I do works just fine through the bridge - was just curious, is all

  • patience55patience55 Posts: 6,198
    edited December 1969

    Roygee said:
    Yep, that script worked great. I lost DS3 when my C drive went pear-shaped and haven't had the need to re-install.

    Anyhow, any morphing I do works just fine through the bridge - was just curious, is all

    That's okay ... still getting my morning caffeine.

    I did figure out just now about the .obj resizing for morphs because yes, to only be able to bring in a fresh morph once via the bridge can be rather limiting.

    I wrote my own "note to self" if anybody is interested in the knowledge here it is:

    "Remember" 24384%


    1. Exporting out a Genesis .obj to morph will NOT work.

    2. Send Genesis [in whatever shape you want] over to Hexagon via the Bridge.

    3. Make and polish the morph as you please keeping in mind of course that NO dots/lines/faces can be altered. Just rearranged.

    4. It seems that however one wants to export this .obj back out to import into D/S via the MorphLoader Pro is going to result in drastic yuckies, be they way too large or too small.

    5. When confronted with such chaos I resort back to doing things my way. May not be professional, but you know, it works.

    6. Okay, back in Hexagon dealing with tiny figure on grid ... import in with it 'the regular Genesis .obj exported out before' ... you know, the regular sized one that comes in a million pieces.

    7. Check the "keep ratio" and choose the tiny one piece Genesis and carefully scale it up. This is a full body morph so basically go for 'matching the feet'. Not the exact size, just location and general size. Only move Genesis up/down ... do NOT move it in any other direction! [so the clothes will fit]

    8. Delete the million piece Genesis keeping just the one that had been brought in via the bridge.

    9. Export that out as 'normal' .obj [1.00 m]

    10. "Remember" 24384% ... it's a Poser setting. Load the morph .obj using Poser (1 unit = 8ft) ... now sometimes the scale says 100% ? why ... so change the scale to 24384% and then if "Poser" changes to "custom" don't worry about it. When you get the preset needed figured out; might want to save the preset for future frustrations.

  • DaremoK3DaremoK3 Posts: 386
    edited September 2012

    Well now, that all seems interesting Patience...

    Just curious, what, pray tell, is the Genesis that comes in a million pieces?

    I haven't come across that one yet.

    And, here I thought I was the master of convoluted work-flows...


    Not preaching to the choir (you know who you are), but just for newbies sake, I use two different versions of Genesis for my MT work both via Hexagon Bridge, and via DS export/Morphloader import.

    Yes, size is the key.

    For whatever reason both avenues yield different results (at DAZ default scale 100%), and whichever avenue you start with, you must finish with (long convoluted workarounds notwithstanding).

    I generally prefer the Hex bridge method, but tend to use both. Example being; Load my master Genesis into Wings3D for fine motor-control manipulation of vertices (ahem... Patience; single "dot" = vertex. More than one "dot" = vertices. Just jokes. Don't care what you call them; Lines, edges, facets, polys, dots, polka-dots... Whatever floats your boat).

    Depending on which version I use I either get a giant (from DS export) which is great for close-up detail work that I would have needed to scale Genesis up for anyways, or at a relatively normal scale (from Hex) which is what I would scale the other master down to.

    Regardless, I re-import my Genesis MT via the opposite direction using the same path I started from, and all results are without error.


    O.k., the real reason I am responding to this thread is because I wanted to address the issue at the beginning. You can, if you want to, save your work while using the Hex bridge (I do it all the time), and then go back to import at a later time. It works both "live", and resurrected at a different time. There are only a couple of caveats to add (to the ones Patience has already pointed out).

    *First, you must have a "live" bridge that was activated from DAZ Studio's end (you have to send over a Genesis first). You can have the bridge open, and work on your MT's elsewhere, but when you return your (unscaled) Genesis back to Hex (import .obj) you will now have two instances of Genesis. Just deselect/hide the "bridged" version, then select the "morphed" version, and use the Send To DS Utility. DS doesn't differentiate between the two, and thinks you are completing the bridge process to create a MT (dependent on second caveat; Please see second below). This is how it works for saved work as well. Just open the bridge via DS first (sending Genesis over), and then load your saved work into Hex.

    *Second, the names must match (case sensitive). Hex is notorious for de-capitalizing everything it exports to OBJ, so you need to correct that once back into Hex. Also, if your OBJ has been named something other than "Genesis", such as obj_1, EyeMorph, etc. You will be able to name your morph whatever you like once the bridge circuit completes. If you don't you will only get the option to "import" as a prop from the Hex bridge.

    I hope this info helps someone as it did myself when I was first learning it...

    Post edited by DaremoK3 on
  • patience55patience55 Posts: 6,198
    edited December 1969

    DaremoK3 said:
    Well now, that all seems interesting Patience...

    Just curious, what, pray tell, is the Genesis that comes in a million pieces?

    I haven't come across that one yet.

    And, here I thought I was the master of convoluted work-flows...


    (ahem... Patience; single "dot" = vertex. More than one "dot" = vertices. ...edit ...

    Not to worry, your title is safe ;-) I'd be the MISTRESS of hmmm ... well anything I want to be mistress of right?! [jk]

    Okay ... are you ready? Genesis, the million piece edition!
    Endless possibilities of course ... for one's self. And it costs nothing but time :-)

    Catching a cold? [jk] okay ... I'll bite ... so what are the lines called?

    millionpieces.png
    792 x 541 - 95K
  • DaremoK3DaremoK3 Posts: 386
    edited December 1969

    O.k., Patience, I see what you did there.

    You created a body part separated Genesis. Cool...

    How did you go about creating this monstrosity? It might be good to know for future reference if others ever need to accomplish this goal.

  • afreaginnameafreaginname Posts: 0
    edited September 2012

    so what are the lines called?

    Nothing fancy. Just "edges". :)

    And besides vertices and edges, we have "faces", which is probably a bastardization of the word "facets". Either term is acceptable, but "faces" has become almost universal.

    Post edited by afreaginname on
  • patience55patience55 Posts: 6,198
    edited December 1969

    @ afreaginname

    hehehe ... okay.

    I've read that 'faces' are actually "face normals". And some will be so pleased to know that from time to time, I actually call them that.

    @DaremoK3

    In D/S4, load in a Genesis. Export it out as one would have normally done so previously ... i.e. scaled so that it fits on the grid nicely when imported into Hexagon.
    Import it into Hexagon like one would any .obj file like M4's .obj for to model clothing on.

    And there it is! A million pieces! Good for gluing back together to it as a clothing dummy.

    One can create a unique rig for it and a .cr2 file BUT one CANNOT redistribute THE MESH. And that is 'the official word' from the folks that own Genesis ;-) [cause yes I asked already]

    Have fun.

  • afreaginnameafreaginname Posts: 0
    edited September 2012

    I've read that 'faces' are actually "face normals"

    Not quite. They're two different things, and it'll take me a couple of steps to untangle them for you. :)

    First know that all faces HAVE normals without being normals in and of themselve.

    So next I should define what a "face normal" is: The normal of a face simply tells you in which direction the face is pointing.

    By convention, a polygon is only visible from one side. However, most 3D applications (including hexagon) have a way of ignoring this convention so that you can see the polygon from either side. In hexagon, this is the "show/hide backfaces" setting.

    To see what I mean, set hexagon to "hide backfaces" and draw a single quad (or any single polygon) in your workspace.
    Now if you rotate that polygon, you'll see that you can see it from one side, but not from the other.

    And here's the defining moment:
    If you can see the polygon's face, its normal is pointing at you (the face is "facing you")
    If you can't see the polygon's face, its normal is pointing away from you (the face is "facing away from you")

    Now this may sound like a silly technical point, but it can actually be a bit of a bane to modelers, since "backward faces" are responsible for a bizarre phenomenon often called "inside out" meshes. Ironically, hexagon inadvertently included some of these inside out models with your installation. One example is "[hexagon installed directory]\content\Models\Animals\boxer.hxn".

    And hexagon has a way of fixing these: It's the "orient normals" tool found under the "utilities" tab. With this tool, you can flip normals back and forth, and/or you can orient all faces to point in the same direction.

    hideshow.jpg
    373 x 224 - 53K
    Post edited by afreaginname on
  • DaremoK3DaremoK3 Posts: 386
    edited December 1969

    I believe you know enough, Patience, about 3D modeling and terminology from what I have read of your posts. Maybe afreaginname has taught you something about normals, or perhaps you already knew (I suspect).

    However, I must add a correction to afreaginname's post (sorry afreaginname).

    The term "face normals" is not redundant, but an identifier. Facet normals as opposed to vertex normals.

    If you wish to learn about the differences (if not known to you), or see further examples in use, there are some great white-papers circulating out there as well as some good web pages on the subject.

    As I said in a thread a long time ago regarding the inverted facet normals in some of the included models with Hex; I think the developers (original) did this on purpose to force us to learn how to use the normals tools in Hex. It sure made me have to learn them when I wanted to use a certain mesh (but I cheated, and performed most the work in Metasequoia).

  • afreaginnameafreaginname Posts: 0
    edited September 2012

    DaremoK3 said:
    The term "face normals" is not redundant, but an identifier. Facet normals as opposed to vertex normals

    This is absolutely true, and I concede the point technically, although the main point I was trying to make was that "faces" are not the same thing as "face normals".

    Still, I may well have overstepped in asserting that "face normals" is a redundant term, and I can only offer in lame defense that I think unless "vertex normals" are actually being discussed in a given thread, that "normals" would generally be construed to be "face normals".

    So I retract that remark, and have re-edited my comment to reflect that.

    Thanks for pointing it out, Darem. It shows that once again, "the devil is in the details"! :lol:

    Post edited by afreaginname on
  • patience55patience55 Posts: 6,198
    edited December 1969

    I've read that 'faces' are actually "face normals"

    Not quite. They're two different things, and it'll take me a couple of steps to untangle them for you. :)

    First know that all faces HAVE normals without being normals in and of themselve.

    So next I should define what a "face normal" is: The normal of a face simply tells you in which direction the face is pointing.

    By convention, a polygon is only visible from one side. However, most 3D applications (including hexagon) have a way of ignoring this convention so that you can see the polygon from either side. In hexagon, this is the "show/hide backfaces" setting.

    To see what I mean, set hexagon to "hide backfaces" and draw a single quad (or any single polygon) in your workspace.
    Now if you rotate that polygon, you'll see that you can see it from one side, but not from the other.

    And here's the defining moment:
    If you can see the polygon's face, its normal is pointing at you (the face is "facing you")
    If you can't see the polygon's face, its normal is pointing away from you (the face is "facing away from you")

    Now this may sound like a silly technical point, but it can actually be a bit of a bane to modelers, since "backward faces" are responsible for a bizarre phenomenon often called "inside out" meshes. Ironically, hexagon inadvertently included some of these inside out models with your installation. One example is "[hexagon installed directory]\content\Models\Animals\boxer.hxn".

    And hexagon has a way of fixing these: It's the "orient normals" tool found under the "utilities" tab. With this tool, you can flip normals back and forth, and/or you can orient all faces to point in the same direction.

    OMG ... more content?!!!! Wow ... must check those out :-)

    I appreciate the explanation because actually I'm rather new to modeling [think novice, not beginner] and am not yet familiar with the precision as to the whys and wherefores of what is called what. or why.

    I'll have to do some experimenting with those buttons. Did know about the hide/show backfaces however I thought they were just hiding the faces on the other side of the object which truthfully I actually like to 'see' so seldom used that button. However next month I'm hoping to try converting some meshes so all this knowledge will be very helpful.

  • DaremoK3DaremoK3 Posts: 386
    edited December 1969

    I see your point, afreaginname. True... true. Generally, we are talking about face normals, and it was good of you to point out faces does not necessarily equal face normals.


    Patience:

    I wanted to see if I could replicate your "million-pieces" Genesis, and in my mind I thought it had to be something you were doing with DS export parameters. I was wrong, and I was successful in achieving the million pieces Genesis in Hex.

    I never encountered this before, because I have never used this avenue with Genesis and Hex. Using default export settings in DS, and straight import into Hex does yield an exploded parts Genesis. The sizing is as expected. Roughly ten times that of using the bridge.

    Here's what I find interesting though; I import the exact same Genesis mesh into Wings3D, and it is one solid mesh model (just like in DS). Even further, if I use a mesh separation command the entire body mesh remains unaffected, and only face attributes are exploded/separated (teeth, gums, lashes, eyes, etc.).

    I took the experiment one step further to see the results of importing the same mesh into Metasequoia. Same as W3D. One solid mesh. Although, the default import for Metaseq creates Genesis at a very small scale compared to the other two programs.


    I think there must be something in the Hexagon import module that separates the internal grouping (even though W3D does not even identify this grouping in the OBJ code) within Genesis. I only used the default import settings.

    The Hex/DS bridge does not do this, and Genesis is sent over as a solid mesh as it should be. Which is much easier on the whole morphing of Genesis endeavors.

    Below are five pics showing the differences I found using the different software. Notice the default grid and Genesis relationship in the different pics for sizing:

    Metaseq_5.jpg
    800 x 481 - 111K
    Metaseq_4.jpg
    690 x 670 - 55K
    Hex_3.jpg
    675 x 575 - 77K
    W3D_2.jpg
    800 x 502 - 104K
    W3D_1.jpg
    550 x 575 - 33K
  • patience55patience55 Posts: 6,198
    edited December 1969

    That's interesting. Yes good ol' Hexie does have a way of reading things a little differently than other modeling programs.
    And definitely, one needs to use the bridge to bring Genesis into Hexagon for modeling. The million piece guy will not be loadable as a morph.

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