How to cut a mesh ?

graham jamesgraham james Posts: 41
edited December 1969 in Hexagon Discussion

Over in the studio forum there is a thread about making a quick suit and chopping it up to create different clothing items.
I am in the process of creating such a suit in Hexagon and apart from the regular crashing it's going well.
My question is - can Hexagon be used to chop a mesh ?
For example can I use a curved plane to cut an armhole or an inclined surface to cut the top of a boot.
The only tool I can see that offers this is Boolean but I don't like to use that as I get weird results.
Years ago I used Rhino which is a nurbs modeller with a few mesh editing commands one of which was slice.
Surely Hexagon can offer a similar function.

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Comments

  • nitehawk_ltdnitehawk_ltd Posts: 260
    edited December 1969

    One of the wizards may chime in here, but the way I do it is to use the insert points tool under lines.
    Make your cut line, select the faces to remove, then extract them or delete. It's not fast or easy, but it works.
    .
    Gerry

  • patience55patience55 Posts: 6,198
    edited September 2012

    Hi.

    Rule 1. No Boolean!!!

    Actually it's fast and easy to remove the bulk of unwanted faces.

    1. 'Freeze' the Genesis figure [or V4, etc] and then 'select' the starter suit.
    2. Toggle on the transparency [down on the bottom right]
    3. Select the 'face' selector [as you can tell I really don't know what all those controls are called]
    4. Right click and drag ... nice red square selection area border appears.
    5. Hit the 'delete' key on the keyboard.

    When transparency is toggled on; it'll nab faces in the front as well as the back from behind the figure.
    When transparency is toggled off, it "should not" do that. [every now and then it might though so check the back before making drastic changes]

    You'll find a couple of tips in the tutorial I just uploaded to sharecg.com a few hours ago that may help stop some of those crashes.

    Post edited by patience55 on
  • graham jamesgraham james Posts: 41
    edited December 1969

    Thanks for the advice both of you.
    Downloaded and read your tutorial Patience55 - very helpful.
    I had been struggling with the whole scaling issue and whilst your method undoubtedly works Patience, I see no logic in the scaling between DS and Hexagon.
    I exported an object from Studio at DazStudio scale and saw that 1 unit = 1cm
    I imported the same object into Hexagon and selected scaling factor 1 as I could think of no reason to change it
    I selected unit of file to be cm as Studio had indicated
    Object came in 1000 times bigger than it should be (10 x 10 x 10)
    To get correct size in Hexagon I had to change unit of file to mm
    That is not exactly intuitive. Daz Studio cm = Daz Hexagon mm

  • patience55patience55 Posts: 6,198
    edited September 2012

    Thanks for the advice both of you.
    Downloaded and read your tutorial Patience55 - very helpful.
    I had been struggling with the whole scaling issue and whilst your method undoubtedly works Patience, I see no logic in the scaling between DS and Hexagon.
    I exported an object from Studio at DazStudio scale and saw that 1 unit = 1cm
    I imported the same object into Hexagon and selected scaling factor 1 as I could think of no reason to change it
    I selected unit of file to be cm as Studio had indicated
    Object came in 1000 times bigger than it should be (10 x 10 x 10)
    To get correct size in Hexagon I had to change unit of file to mm
    That is not exactly intuitive. Daz Studio cm = Daz Hexagon mm

    Logic?! hehehe ... welcome to Hexagon!
    However there is a logic to it all ... but think Poser settings.
    The logic for the method in the tutorial is for the end result to be properly sized. Trying to get up the nerve to try all this again in D/S4 and illustrate the importance.

    What's important is to get the new clothing .obj imported into Hexagon so that it is 'already' the correct size to land on the figure concerned. [i.e. Genesis] Resizing it down doesn't work well ... ? as to why because it would before and for other projects ... but clothing for Genesis is another ballgame. Once imported at the correct size ... then exported out using the settings I mentioned should result [I was using D/S4.0] in D/S importing it at the correct size as well. If it does using another set of units on your system; great. To stress though, resizing it in the program is not okay. It has to already 'be' the right size. Then one can create the [.dsf] file. Close the program. Open the program. Load the outfit on Genesis ... and be happy. :-)

    edited to fix oopsy .cr2 should have read .dsf if using D/S4.0 ... and thank you for the correction, it'd be .duf for 4.5

    Post edited by patience55 on
  • RoygeeRoygee Posts: 1,888
    edited December 1969

    Thank you Patience for clearing up the ratio for Genesis VS the Poser .cr2 proportions. Using DS4.5 to make clothing for Genesis is a lot simpler - as long as you are going the .duf route and not .cr2. Export from DS at Studio proportions, import into Hex at 1, export from Hex at 1 and import to Studio at Studio proportions. Also no complicated Runtime structure to bother about.

    For graham james' info - there is no standardization throughout the modelling world regarding proportions - each piece of software evolved in it's own way and sizes were what the developers decided they should be. This is not normally a problem, unless, as in clothing, you need to make something to match something else. It would also not normally be a problem; you would simply scale it in another app.

    A Poser .cr2 clothing piece is in a category of its own and has to meet very specific Poser size requirements because it has to use the rigging of the figure which will be wearing it.

    Poser uses very small dimensions, very different to other apps. Before Genesis came on the scene, the standard was to import the Poser size figure into Hex at 500% and export the clothing at 0.002% - or an equivalent proportion - and import into Studio at Poser size.

    Just wondering why you need to have Genesis clothing at Poser proportions - unless you are using Poser 2012 and are converting Genesis to .cr2?

  • graham jamesgraham james Posts: 41
    edited September 2012

    Roygee I didn't mention Poser at all.
    What I have done is create a quick suit from which I wish to make various items of clothing.
    I created the suit by sending Genesis to Hexagon using the bridge and modelling around the base mesh.
    From this suit I have made a pair of boots.
    After smoothing the boots many of the verts sank below the Genesis mesh and there are now way too many for me to pull them out by hand. I decided to take a short cut and sent the model back to studio via the bridge and then used a smoothing modifiers collision detection to push the verts back out. This is for personal use only cos I don't know how legal that is.
    When I send the boots back to Hex I get another copy of the boots but exactly the same as the first. No verts have been moved.
    I then thought I would try exporting from Studio as obj and importing into Hex.
    Using the settings I quoted earlier export as Daz Studio 1 unit = 1 cm
    Import as scale factor 1 and units = cm and it is 10x too big in each direction
    To correct this I had to set the import at units in mm.
    Bear in mind that my original session in Hex was still open and the original Genesis was still there - Hiding behind the heel of the boot :lol:
    I understand about the different sizing conventions but when they are expressed in real world units as both of these programs do they surely should be the same or are we to just accept that a Hex mm is the same size as a Studio cm.

    Post edited by graham james on
  • Dumor3DDumor3D Posts: 934
    edited December 1969


    After smoothing the boots many of the verts sank below the Genesis mesh and there are now way too many for me to pull them out by hand. I decided to take a short cut and sent the model back to studio via the bridge and then used a smoothing modifiers collision detection to push the verts back out. This is for personal use only cos I don't know how legal that is.

    I was thinking of using the same method for fixing things! You obviously have a great mind Graham. LOL. Yes,there are always more than one way to an end when modeling. I haven't gotten around to it yet, but you bring up the question of legality. I hadn't thought of that. We aren't using the actual Genesis mesh (or fill in the blanks with some other mesh) geometry, but I suppose this could raise a legal issue.

    My "suit" is pretty good, but running it through that process could only make it better, or I would think/hope better.

    So, does anyone know the answer? Can you use the smoothing modifier to improve your clothing-item mesh and then take it back in to Hex or another program and use your now 'fit' mesh for public items?

  • RoygeeRoygee Posts: 1,888
    edited December 1969

    @graham james

    OK - I guess you've found where it went wrong - mixing import and the bridge. The two-way bridge is used for making morphs, and the one-way bridge for sending props from Hex to Studio. That way you have Hex and Studio talking the same language. If you mix import and bridge you get vastly different proportions. When you do a smoothing collision in Studio, it is only valid in Studio.

    When you export from Studio, using the Studio proportions, it really does not matter what proportion you import it into Hex, as long as you export at that same setting and import back into Studio at the same proportion it was exported.

    Hex unfortunately does not have a shrinkwrap function, (you could try Blender, which has) so there is no short-cut to getting the mesh to lay on the surface - it has to be done by hand. You have learned that smoothing causes some shrinkage and you'll soon learn to deal with that and make allowances. Do the rough fit, smooth, move to surface, smooth again - always using soft selection.

    As far as the legalities go, you obviously can't distribute someone else's mesh, or a portion thereof, without their permission. There are varying legal opinions regarding copying a mesh - some say that this would constitute a derivative, which is also illegal. Rather play it safe and make your own mesh to fit, but not copy, the original.

  • patience55patience55 Posts: 6,198
    edited December 1969

    Roygee said:
    Thank you Patience for clearing up the ratio for Genesis VS the Poser .cr2 proportions. Using DS4.5 to make clothing for Genesis is a lot simpler - as long as you are going the .duf route and not .cr2. Export from DS at Studio proportions, import into Hex at 1, export from Hex at 1 and import to Studio at Studio proportions. Also no complicated Runtime structure to bother about.

    For graham james' info - ... edit ...

    Just wondering why you need to have Genesis clothing at Poser proportions - unless you are using Poser 2012 and are converting Genesis to .cr2?

    I'm the one that brought Poser into the equation. With this particular outfit ... I had tried a variety of scales into and out from D/S4.0 [4.5 wasn't out yet] and discovered that if one resized the .obj in the program; created the .dsf file [I will get used to these extensions yes] that for whatever reason the new size information wasn't kept. The new clothing was HUGE. As it's a very nice start mesh I simply was wanting the pathway easier for others to use it without loosing too much hair. It could be that the 'holding to the new size' issue doesn't exist in D/S4.5 ... but it certainly does in D/S4.0 on my laptop.

    Thank you for catching the .cr2 error. That should have read .dsf [or I gather now .duf].

    And yes! Making clothes and morphs, so much easier in D/S4.anything.

  • Dumor3DDumor3D Posts: 934
    edited December 1969

    Roygee,

    Are you saying what we're talking about won't work? To review... create for instance a mesh that will become a pair of socks. Send that to Daz and Autofit them to Genesis. Then, save them as an obj. Open that obj in Hex. Is that sock mesh now adjusted for fit or does those changes get lost leaving you with only what you started with?

    Then, 'if' it saves/exports the adjusted sock mesh which is your original mesh adjusted to fit... is it legal to use that 'adjusted/fit mesh'?

    If I understand it right, you cannot use any vertice from Genesis as this is original geometry. But your mesh fit to Genesis I think only moves your vertices in or out to be a certain distance from the Genesis surfaces. I don't think this would be shared geometry?

    Silo doesn't have a shrink fit either, but if you have a good 'suit' to start with, it does have a magnetic type function. So, for instance you can start extracting a strap around your suit and it will follow the surfaces. This is a nice function as it seems that my suit never has edges that follow where I want to a new clothing item to travel.

    Yes, if only we could legally do this over the Genesis mesh. Hours would be saved for each of us. Days, weeks, months, years, decades or maybe even centurys of time would be saved as a collective group of folks modeling for Genesis or other forms. Early on I got the bright idea of just slicing the Genesis mesh into what I wanted. Then scale it up the tiniest bit. Boom!!! Instant clothing item. But darned, then I found out I couldn't give it away, sell it or use it for I suppose anything public. :(

  • patience55patience55 Posts: 6,198
    edited December 1969

    A modeller who uses an expensive program with shrinkwrap told me that it matches the geometry and therefore cannot be used for clothing items [for redistribution].

    While technically making a copy of an original [anything] is a derivative work etc ... for the sake of clothing and such articles FOR the concerned figure, Daz3d clearly stated permission for us to do that [I have no idea where that page is right now]. They also stated clearly that said permission was NOT for a competitive figure! So keeping that in mind, I will show people the one button in Hexagon which is a no-no for clothing creation. It's not a shrinkwrap but makes an exact copy [like a clone might]. As I had welded Genesis all into one piece, the example shows the entire cloned. But with figures such as V4 which one can keep in groups for making clothing, one could create 'body clothing' or whatever one might call it.
    I put numbers on the images in case they don't line up correctly.

    Concerning legalities and what other people may or not be doing; let's remember too that not everybody is in the same ballpark. Some people may have paid mega dollars for licensed privileges which may have included redistributing mesh [as in for games].

    Since I happened to have a mesh hanging around from that tutorial; made good use of it to check out the autofit question. [wondering why didn't I think of that, it's a great idea!]
    Good news based on one test, it does NOT change the mesh itself into that of Genesis'. So yes, why not, we can use that AFAIK. [this comment may stand to be corrected by Daz3d if they so choose ;-) ]

    5 images per post so this will take a minute to load them all in.

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  • patience55patience55 Posts: 6,198
    edited September 2012

    These pictures have numbers in their name if they should happen to line up out of order.

    vip4.png
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    vip3.png
    594 x 364 - 132K
    vip2.png
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    vip1.png
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    Post edited by patience55 on
  • patience55patience55 Posts: 6,198
    edited December 1969

    dumorian said:
    ... edit ... then I found out I couldn't give it away, sell it or use it for I suppose anything public. :(

    Well you could use it for making renders which can be sold or given away. Just not the mesh itself.

  • graham jamesgraham james Posts: 41
    edited September 2012

    OK I seem to have started some debate here with regards to legality.
    To be accurate I wasn't using autofit just the collision detection in the smoothing modifier.
    I sent the left boot to DS (via the bridge) where it sat in the same 3d space as Genesis but with much of it sunk into Genesis.
    I didn't "fit to" or Parent the boot just added a smoothing modifier and set collision item to Genesis.
    This slightly inflated my mesh where needed - a push modifier can also be added here.
    When I tried sending back via the bridge no mesh changes had been made.
    Saving the boot as obj and then importing did bring the changed mesh into Hexagon (scaling issues aside)
    The mesh was still my mesh but the vertices were now outside the Genesis mesh and the fit was very good.
    I now have a nicely fitted boot mesh ready for detailing - seams, wrinkles, etc.
    I suspected that this method may fall foul of Daz policy so I stated that it is for personal use.
    If it turned out that it was legal then that would be great but if not then personal use is fine. This is just a learning experience for me.

    Post edited by graham james on
  • Dumor3DDumor3D Posts: 934
    edited December 1969

    Graham,

    Well, I think your method is just a slightly more manual method (and maybe better for this) of using the transfer utility, which if you haven't looked at it, is a nice shortcut! What you did is raise a question about something I was also considering as a way to better wrap to the Genesis form but just hadn't gotten around to it yet. But I had not considered potential legal issues with doing this.

    I'm not trying to cry foul on you. I'm trying to find out if this is acceptable for me or anyone else.

    If Patience is right about this procedure not violating copyright, this will be great! I really don't see that doing this is a lot different from creating morphs through Daz... but I haven't done one of those yet so might not realize what that entails. Yes, I'm a noob too, grabbing Daz in March.

    The cool thing have is a lot time saved. Second, when doing the transfer, you can select from various projection templates which I find very helpful especially for particular items.

    What I have done here, is import my bodysuit mesh obj into Daz. The first image is the raw import. The second image, my suit after running it through the transfer utility and adding the smoothing modifier. The third, the suit set to about 50% opacity which does show it is not super tight fitting, but until I look more closely, this might be errors in my original mesh or it might be the transfer and smoothing doing this. Some areas are very tight, like the back, but hips and breasts are a bit loose (although one could argue as a good thing). Image 4 is the mesh, mine in blue over Genesis in gray. Obviously, like Patience found, the mesh did not attach to Genesis nor rearrange vertices to match/copy the Genesis mesh.

    Very Nice and thanks Graham for bringing up this in your original post. I suppose I hijacked your thread though... :( Sorry about that.

    Anyway, if this is good with Daz, this could by a huge timesaver vs. pulling/pushing all of those vertices around in Hex!

    bodysuit4.jpg
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    bodysuit3.jpg
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    bodysuit2.jpg
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    bodysuit1.jpg
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  • graham jamesgraham james Posts: 41
    edited December 1969

    Hi dumorian - not hijacked at all. This is all good info. I didn't use the transfer utility at this stage because I'm not done modelling yet, just wanted a smoother base shape to build on.
    Also I am modelling on the Genesis base shape but posed (high heels) so the transfer utility is not that helpful in this situation. I will be using the figure setup tool instead.

  • Dumor3DDumor3D Posts: 934
    edited December 1969

    LOL!!! Another side note... If I'm doing a male item, I use base Genesis. If I'm doing a female item, I use the base Genesis female which I always set to 100% so I don't have to remember the percentage.

    When I have done high heels, I have created a high heel pose and saved it. Then set for instance Genesis base female with this pose. So, I have my pose which would need to be shipped with a high heel item before I start. I then export this out as an obj to model around.

    Then, I open Daz with Genesis base, set it to basic female, set the pose and then import my item. When doing the transfer I choose Genesis and here's what I missed forever.... there is a pull down under that, "Item shape" which can be set to 'Current'. Then select the transfer item. My stuff comes in fit to Genesis female in this pose. After the transfer, I can set the shape to anything (pretty much) and the item still fits. Male, V5, M5, pear shape, huge breasts, troll, hag, a combo of these or whatever else. On most items I don't have poke through unless I do a number of very extreme shapes combined and even then, normally it does good until I do an extreme pose.

    Note that I thought I could do this over the V5 mesh, but so far the item only fits to V5. Doing it over basic female is the only place I have been successful. Don't ask me about the V5 'suit' I created using up lots of hours to find it would not work for other shapes. (Note: I am still on Daz 4 on my workstation at the moment. I have not tried this V5 suit in 4.5 so don't know if this is still the case?)

    But, again, I'm new at this as well so might not be giving the best advice.

  • RoygeeRoygee Posts: 1,888
    edited December 1969

    Patience has covered the legalities very well.

    I just tested by importing Genesis into Blender, applying a cylinder to the calf and using shrinkwrap. Gets a perfect fit, which works in both Hex and Studio. It doesn't alter the original mesh to comply with the Genesis mesh, just alters the shape to fit and you can specify the offset from the underlying mesh. Nothing that couldn't be done in Hex with a lot of work; just does it instantly.

    I don't see that this could be called a derivative; simply a faster method.

    But hey, don't take this as legal advice - it's free and worth about what you pay for it!

  • graham jamesgraham james Posts: 41
    edited December 1969

    Roygee I'm sure I read in another thread that shrinkwrapping is not allowed by Daz except for personal use.

  • GeddGedd Posts: 2,473
    edited September 2012

    I am pretty sure what they were referring to with not using shrink wrapping was that they didn't want someone to shrinkwrap their char and sell it as a char.. etc... This is fundamentally different then using shrinkwrap to 'fit' and entirely different geometry to theirs as an accessory piece. If looking to put out the object for public consumption anyone can always email them for clarification.

    Post edited by Gedd on
  • Dumor3DDumor3D Posts: 934
    edited December 1969

    I just submitted a question to Daz Publishing and should get an answer from the proverbial 'Horse's mouth'.

    And yes, I think shrink wrapping is a software process which attaches to the mesh, for instance a copy of the Genesis mesh. When you do that, you don't have control over it not grabbing Genesis geometry. What we are doing is sort of like "shrink wrapping", ;) but I don't think the same precise meaning. At least that is what I'm assuming from my work in Silo with what I think they call the 'Surface Tool'.

    I'll report back what Daz Publishing has to say.

  • GeddGedd Posts: 2,473
    edited September 2012

    Well how the question is asked makes a world of difference, as it has different implications. Hopefully someone from DS would come to the actual thread to see exactly what people are talking about so that their clarification applies to the specifics being discussed.

    Post edited by Gedd on
  • Dumor3DDumor3D Posts: 934
    edited December 1969

    You're right Gedd... Here is a copy of my question... Hope it is clear enough...

    We have a discussion running on the Hexagon forum where this question came up. We wish to know if it is legal to do the following for public use.

    1. Create a new mesh in Hexagon not using any of the Genesis geometry.
    2. Save this to a obj.
    3. Import the obj into Daz Studio.
    4. Use one of the tools to fit your new mesh to Genesis, such as the transfer utility and smoothing modifier.
    5. Export your mesh back out as an obj. or send to Hex.
    6. Continue working on your personal mesh which now has been smoothed and fit via Daz Studio.
    7. Use this mesh for public release.

    When doing this, We do not see that any of the geometry from Genesis is being matched to the 'new mesh' geometry, but that the mesh is simply smoothed and perhaps moved in or out to better fit Genesis. The 'new mesh' is also not really shrinkwrapped to Genesis, as there is an offset in the smoothing.

    The thread topic is located at:

    http://www.daz3d.com/forums/viewreply/98572/

    There are several images showing the process within the thread.

    Also, I have been talking about Genesis, but would like to know if the same is true for any of the Daz figures?

  • Dumor3DDumor3D Posts: 934
    edited December 1969

    The more I think about this the more I think we are in the clear. For instance, let's say you created a skirt for the Daz store to fit Genesis. To me, one of the parts of that process is to import your skirt into Daz and fit it to the Genesis, so the final product uses this technology. What is the difference between doing it as the last step and doing it as an intermediate step? Even if it will be done again in the final processing of the new skirt.

    I'm feeling pretty good that we are in the clear using this technique and I'm pretty excited about time savings.

    Now... I do feel just a bit sad about this totally hijacked thread... but good stuff is coming out of it... or bad if Daz counters my opinion.

  • patience55patience55 Posts: 6,198
    edited December 1969

    dumorian said:
    The more I think about this the more I think we are in the clear. For instance, let's say you created a skirt for the Daz store to fit Genesis. To me, one of the parts of that process is to import your skirt into Daz and fit it to the Genesis, so the final product uses this technology. What is the difference between doing it as the last step and doing it as an intermediate step? Even if it will be done again in the final processing of the new skirt.

    I'm feeling pretty good that we are in the clear using this technique and I'm pretty excited about time savings.

    Now... I do feel just a bit sad about this totally hijacked thread... but good stuff is coming out of it... or bad if Daz counters my opinion.

    One thing leads to another for sure but lots of good stuff covered here. Not to feel bad either way. Letter summarizes the topic well ... and it's way better to find out now so we all can confidently work along approved pathways. One in which those making money get to keep it! ;-)

  • GeddGedd Posts: 2,473
    edited September 2012

    That was well worded, clear and definitive Dumorian.

    There is one more issue to consider. A company in DAZ's position isn't always motivated to rush to clarifying some things as they don't want to squash the artists creativity that feeds their market, but they also aren't always in a rush to say yes to something that might open a can of worms for them. So as artists we are sometimes left to work in the grey area, do so with the idea of being fair to the other company to limit our chance of falling on the wrong side of the equation and hope for the best till we get told otherwise. Of course I am not speaking for DAZ in any way.. I am speaking totally in a generalized sense, and mostly so we don't get too frustrated if we ever have a situation like this and the company doesn't rush to reply.

    Post edited by Gedd on
  • RoygeeRoygee Posts: 1,888
    edited December 1969

    Roygee I’m sure I read in another thread that shrinkwrapping is not allowed by Daz except for personal use

    Yes, I've read many quasi-legal and simply speculative stuff about this - which is why I hasten to add that what I am saying is not legal opinion.

    I would defy anybody to prove in a court of law that when I shrinkwrap my own mesh to fit a character and this is done without altering the edge flow of my mesh, that it was done on a particular character belonging to a particular company. There are many other suppliers of characters out there and I could have used any of them - they are all pretty much the same.

    Not that I have any plans on distributing anything other than my usual trains and boats and planes, so I'm in the clear;-)

  • GeddGedd Posts: 2,473
    edited December 1969

    The quick answer is, 'can someone extract any non insignificant part of someone else's intellectual property out of your work?' The reason I put in non insignificant is to acknowledge without delving into the can of worms called fair use laws. Usually common sense will serve as a good guide.

  • RoygeeRoygee Posts: 1,888
    edited December 1969

    Unfortunately common sense is not all that common and has very little place in law. The fashion industry is based entirely on plagiarism and rip-offs. They even have formulas on what percentage you can change someone else's design to make it "original".

  • patience55patience55 Posts: 6,198
    edited December 1969

    Roygee said:
    Unfortunately common sense is not all that common and has very little place in law. The fashion industry is based entirely on plagiarism and rip-offs. They even have formulas on what percentage you can change someone else's design to make it "original".

    And they fight over that too!

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