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How to cut a mesh ?
Posted: 09 September 2012 02:43 PM   [ Ignore ]
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Over in the studio forum there is a thread about making a quick suit and chopping it up to create different clothing items.
I am in the process of creating such a suit in Hexagon and apart from the regular crashing it’s going well.
My question is - can Hexagon be used to chop a mesh ?
For example can I use a curved plane to cut an armhole or an inclined surface to cut the top of a boot.
The only tool I can see that offers this is Boolean but I don’t like to use that as I get weird results.
Years ago I used Rhino which is a nurbs modeller with a few mesh editing commands one of which was slice.
Surely Hexagon can offer a similar function.

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Posted: 09 September 2012 04:55 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 1 ]
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One of the wizards may chime in here, but the way I do it is to use the insert points tool under lines.
Make your cut line, select the faces to remove, then extract them or delete. It’s not fast or easy, but it works.
.
Gerry

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Posted: 09 September 2012 11:10 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 2 ]
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Hi.

Rule 1. No Boolean!!!

Actually it’s fast and easy to remove the bulk of unwanted faces.

1. ‘Freeze’ the Genesis figure [or V4, etc] and then ‘select’ the starter suit.
2. Toggle on the transparency [down on the bottom right]
3. Select the ‘face’ selector [as you can tell I really don’t know what all those controls are called]
4. Right click and drag ... nice red square selection area border appears.
5. Hit the ‘delete’ key on the keyboard.

When transparency is toggled on; it’ll nab faces in the front as well as the back from behind the figure.
When transparency is toggled off, it “should not” do that. [every now and then it might though so check the back before making drastic changes]

You’ll find a couple of tips in the tutorial I just uploaded to sharecg.com a few hours ago that may help stop some of those crashes.

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Posted: 10 September 2012 04:11 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 3 ]
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Thanks for the advice both of you.
Downloaded and read your tutorial Patience55 - very helpful.
I had been struggling with the whole scaling issue and whilst your method undoubtedly works Patience, I see no logic in the scaling between DS and Hexagon.
I exported an object from Studio at DazStudio scale and saw that 1 unit = 1cm
I imported the same object into Hexagon and selected scaling factor 1 as I could think of no reason to change it
I selected unit of file to be cm as Studio had indicated
Object came in 1000 times bigger than it should be (10 x 10 x 10)
To get correct size in Hexagon I had to change unit of file to mm
That is not exactly intuitive. Daz Studio cm = Daz Hexagon mm

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Posted: 10 September 2012 01:02 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 4 ]
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graham james - 10 September 2012 04:11 AM

Thanks for the advice both of you.
Downloaded and read your tutorial Patience55 - very helpful.
I had been struggling with the whole scaling issue and whilst your method undoubtedly works Patience, I see no logic in the scaling between DS and Hexagon.
I exported an object from Studio at DazStudio scale and saw that 1 unit = 1cm
I imported the same object into Hexagon and selected scaling factor 1 as I could think of no reason to change it
I selected unit of file to be cm as Studio had indicated
Object came in 1000 times bigger than it should be (10 x 10 x 10)
To get correct size in Hexagon I had to change unit of file to mm
That is not exactly intuitive. Daz Studio cm = Daz Hexagon mm

Logic?! hehehe ... welcome to Hexagon!
However there is a logic to it all ... but think Poser settings.
The logic for the method in the tutorial is for the end result to be properly sized. Trying to get up the nerve to try all this again in D/S4 and illustrate the importance.

What’s important is to get the new clothing .obj imported into Hexagon so that it is ‘already’ the correct size to land on the figure concerned. [i.e. Genesis] Resizing it down doesn’t work well ... ? as to why because it would before and for other projects ... but clothing for Genesis is another ballgame. Once imported at the correct size ... then exported out using the settings I mentioned should result [I was using D/S4.0] in D/S importing it at the correct size as well. If it does using another set of units on your system; great. To stress though, resizing it in the program is not okay. It has to already ‘be’ the right size. Then one can create the [.dsf] file. Close the program. Open the program. Load the outfit on Genesis ... and be happy. grin

edited to fix oopsy .cr2 should have read .dsf if using D/S4.0 ... and thank you for the correction, it’d be .duf for 4.5

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Posted: 10 September 2012 02:30 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 5 ]
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Thank you Patience for clearing up the ratio for Genesis VS the Poser .cr2 proportions.  Using DS4.5 to make clothing for Genesis is a lot simpler - as long as you are going the .duf route and not .cr2.  Export from DS at Studio proportions, import into Hex at 1, export from Hex at 1 and import to Studio at Studio proportions. Also no complicated Runtime structure to bother about.

For graham james’ info - there is no standardization throughout the modelling world regarding proportions - each piece of software evolved in it’s own way and sizes were what the developers decided they should be.  This is not normally a problem, unless, as in clothing, you need to make something to match something else.  It would also not normally be a problem; you would simply scale it in another app.

A Poser .cr2 clothing piece is in a category of its own and has to meet very specific Poser size requirements because it has to use the rigging of the figure which will be wearing it.

Poser uses very small dimensions, very different to other apps.  Before Genesis came on the scene, the standard was to import the Poser size figure into Hex at 500% and export the clothing at 0.002% - or an equivalent proportion - and import into Studio at Poser size.

Just wondering why you need to have Genesis clothing at Poser proportions - unless you are using Poser 2012 and are converting Genesis to .cr2?

 

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Posted: 10 September 2012 03:05 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 6 ]
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Roygee I didn’t mention Poser at all.
What I have done is create a quick suit from which I wish to make various items of clothing.
I created the suit by sending Genesis to Hexagon using the bridge and modelling around the base mesh.
From this suit I have made a pair of boots.
After smoothing the boots many of the verts sank below the Genesis mesh and there are now way too many for me to pull them out by hand. I decided to take a short cut and sent the model back to studio via the bridge and then used a smoothing modifiers collision detection to push the verts back out. This is for personal use only cos I don’t know how legal that is.
When I send the boots back to Hex I get another copy of the boots but exactly the same as the first. No verts have been moved.
I then thought I would try exporting from Studio as obj and importing into Hex.
Using the settings I quoted earlier export as Daz Studio 1 unit = 1 cm
Import as scale factor 1 and units = cm and it is 10x too big in each direction
To correct this I had to set the import at units in mm.
Bear in mind that my original session in Hex was still open and the original Genesis was still there - Hiding behind the heel of the boot LOL
I understand about the different sizing conventions but when they are expressed in real world units as both of these programs do they surely should be the same or are we to just accept that a Hex mm is the same size as a Studio cm.

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Posted: 10 September 2012 06:11 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 7 ]
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graham james - 10 September 2012 03:05 PM

After smoothing the boots many of the verts sank below the Genesis mesh and there are now way too many for me to pull them out by hand. I decided to take a short cut and sent the model back to studio via the bridge and then used a smoothing modifiers collision detection to push the verts back out. This is for personal use only cos I don’t know how legal that is.

I was thinking of using the same method for fixing things! You obviously have a great mind Graham. LOL. Yes,there are always more than one way to an end when modeling. I haven’t gotten around to it yet, but you bring up the question of legality. I hadn’t thought of that. We aren’t using the actual Genesis mesh (or fill in the blanks with some other mesh) geometry, but I suppose this could raise a legal issue.

My “suit” is pretty good, but running it through that process could only make it better, or I would think/hope better.

So, does anyone know the answer? Can you use the smoothing modifier to improve your clothing-item mesh and then take it back in to Hex or another program and use your now ‘fit’ mesh for public items?

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Posted: 10 September 2012 08:11 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 8 ]
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@graham james

OK - I guess you’ve found where it went wrong - mixing import and the bridge.  The two-way bridge is used for making morphs, and the one-way bridge for sending props from Hex to Studio.  That way you have Hex and Studio talking the same language.  If you mix import and bridge you get vastly different proportions.  When you do a smoothing collision in Studio, it is only valid in Studio.

When you export from Studio, using the Studio proportions, it really does not matter what proportion you import it into Hex, as long as you export at that same setting and import back into Studio at the same proportion it was exported.

Hex unfortunately does not have a shrinkwrap function, (you could try Blender, which has) so there is no short-cut to getting the mesh to lay on the surface - it has to be done by hand.  You have learned that smoothing causes some shrinkage and you’ll soon learn to deal with that and make allowances.  Do the rough fit, smooth, move to surface, smooth again - always using soft selection.

As far as the legalities go, you obviously can’t distribute someone else’s mesh, or a portion thereof, without their permission.  There are varying legal opinions regarding copying a mesh - some say that this would constitute a derivative, which is also illegal.  Rather play it safe and make your own mesh to fit, but not copy, the original.

 

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Posted: 10 September 2012 09:19 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 9 ]
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Roygee - 10 September 2012 02:30 PM

Thank you Patience for clearing up the ratio for Genesis VS the Poser .cr2 proportions.  Using DS4.5 to make clothing for Genesis is a lot simpler - as long as you are going the .duf route and not .cr2.  Export from DS at Studio proportions, import into Hex at 1, export from Hex at 1 and import to Studio at Studio proportions. Also no complicated Runtime structure to bother about.

For graham james’ info - ... edit ...

Just wondering why you need to have Genesis clothing at Poser proportions - unless you are using Poser 2012 and are converting Genesis to .cr2?

I’m the one that brought Poser into the equation. With this particular outfit ... I had tried a variety of scales into and out from D/S4.0 [4.5 wasn’t out yet] and discovered that if one resized the .obj in the program; created the .dsf file [I will get used to these extensions yes] that for whatever reason the new size information wasn’t kept. The new clothing was HUGE. As it’s a very nice start mesh I simply was wanting the pathway easier for others to use it without loosing too much hair. It could be that the ‘holding to the new size’ issue doesn’t exist in D/S4.5 ... but it certainly does in D/S4.0 on my laptop.

Thank you for catching the .cr2 error. That should have read .dsf [or I gather now .duf].

And yes! Making clothes and morphs, so much easier in D/S4.anything.

 

 

 

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Posted: 10 September 2012 10:10 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 10 ]
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Roygee,

Are you saying what we’re talking about won’t work? To review… create for instance a mesh that will become a pair of socks. Send that to Daz and Autofit them to Genesis. Then, save them as an obj. Open that obj in Hex. Is that sock mesh now adjusted for fit or does those changes get lost leaving you with only what you started with?

Then, ‘if’ it saves/exports the adjusted sock mesh which is your original mesh adjusted to fit… is it legal to use that ‘adjusted/fit mesh’?

If I understand it right, you cannot use any vertice from Genesis as this is original geometry. But your mesh fit to Genesis I think only moves your vertices in or out to be a certain distance from the Genesis surfaces. I don’t think this would be shared geometry?

Silo doesn’t have a shrink fit either, but if you have a good ‘suit’ to start with, it does have a magnetic type function. So, for instance you can start extracting a strap around your suit and it will follow the surfaces. This is a nice function as it seems that my suit never has edges that follow where I want to a new clothing item to travel.

Yes, if only we could legally do this over the Genesis mesh. Hours would be saved for each of us. Days, weeks, months, years, decades or maybe even centurys of time would be saved as a collective group of folks modeling for Genesis or other forms. Early on I got the bright idea of just slicing the Genesis mesh into what I wanted. Then scale it up the tiniest bit. Boom!!! Instant clothing item. But darned, then I found out I couldn’t give it away, sell it or use it for I suppose anything public. :(

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Posted: 11 September 2012 01:29 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 11 ]
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A modeller who uses an expensive program with shrinkwrap told me that it matches the geometry and therefore cannot be used for clothing items [for redistribution].

While technically making a copy of an original [anything] is a derivative work etc ... for the sake of clothing and such articles FOR the concerned figure, Daz3d clearly stated permission for us to do that [I have no idea where that page is right now]. They also stated clearly that said permission was NOT for a competitive figure! So keeping that in mind, I will show people the one button in Hexagon which is a no-no for clothing creation. It’s not a shrinkwrap but makes an exact copy [like a clone might]. As I had welded Genesis all into one piece, the example shows the entire cloned. But with figures such as V4 which one can keep in groups for making clothing, one could create ‘body clothing’ or whatever one might call it.
I put numbers on the images in case they don’t line up correctly.

Concerning legalities and what other people may or not be doing; let’s remember too that not everybody is in the same ballpark. Some people may have paid mega dollars for licensed privileges which may have included redistributing mesh [as in for games].

Since I happened to have a mesh hanging around from that tutorial; made good use of it to check out the autofit question. [wondering why didn’t I think of that, it’s a great idea!]
Good news based on one test, it does NOT change the mesh itself into that of Genesis’. So yes, why not, we can use that AFAIK. [this comment may stand to be corrected by Daz3d if they so choose wink ]

5 images per post so this will take a minute to load them all in.

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Posted: 11 September 2012 01:31 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 12 ]
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These pictures have numbers in their name if they should happen to line up out of order.

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Posted: 11 September 2012 01:37 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 13 ]
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dumorian - 10 September 2012 10:10 PM

... edit ... then I found out I couldn’t give it away, sell it or use it for I suppose anything public. :(

Well you could use it for making renders which can be sold or given away. Just not the mesh itself.

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Posted: 11 September 2012 02:06 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 14 ]
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OK I seem to have started some debate here with regards to legality.
To be accurate I wasn’t using autofit just the collision detection in the smoothing modifier.
I sent the left boot to DS (via the bridge) where it sat in the same 3d space as Genesis but with much of it sunk into Genesis.
I didn’t “fit to” or Parent the boot just added a smoothing modifier and set collision item to Genesis.
This slightly inflated my mesh where needed - a push modifier can also be added here.
When I tried sending back via the bridge no mesh changes had been made.
Saving the boot as obj and then importing did bring the changed mesh into Hexagon (scaling issues aside)
The mesh was still my mesh but the vertices were now outside the Genesis mesh and the fit was very good.
I now have a nicely fitted boot mesh ready for detailing - seams, wrinkles, etc.
I suspected that this method may fall foul of Daz policy so I stated that it is for personal use.
If it turned out that it was legal then that would be great but if not then personal use is fine. This is just a learning experience for me.

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Posted: 11 September 2012 08:02 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 15 ]
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Graham,

Well, I think your method is just a slightly more manual method (and maybe better for this) of using the transfer utility, which if you haven’t looked at it, is a nice shortcut! What you did is raise a question about something I was also considering as a way to better wrap to the Genesis form but just hadn’t gotten around to it yet. But I had not considered potential legal issues with doing this.

I’m not trying to cry foul on you. I’m trying to find out if this is acceptable for me or anyone else.

If Patience is right about this procedure not violating copyright, this will be great! I really don’t see that doing this is a lot different from creating morphs through Daz… but I haven’t done one of those yet so might not realize what that entails. Yes, I’m a noob too, grabbing Daz in March.

The cool thing have is a lot time saved. Second, when doing the transfer, you can select from various projection templates which I find very helpful especially for particular items.

What I have done here, is import my bodysuit mesh obj into Daz. The first image is the raw import. The second image, my suit after running it through the transfer utility and adding the smoothing modifier. The third, the suit set to about 50% opacity which does show it is not super tight fitting, but until I look more closely, this might be errors in my original mesh or it might be the transfer and smoothing doing this. Some areas are very tight, like the back, but hips and breasts are a bit loose (although one could argue as a good thing). Image 4 is the mesh, mine in blue over Genesis in gray. Obviously, like Patience found, the mesh did not attach to Genesis nor rearrange vertices to match/copy the Genesis mesh.

Very Nice and thanks Graham for bringing up this in your original post. I suppose I hijacked your thread though… :( Sorry about that.

Anyway, if this is good with Daz, this could by a huge timesaver vs. pulling/pushing all of those vertices around in Hex!

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