What is legal when dealing with Genesis mesh?

RKane_1RKane_1 Posts: 1,150
edited September 2012 in The Commons

If I take the Genesis mesh to ZBrush and make a shirt based upon the Genesis figure by cutting and warping the mesh... is it legal to redistribute for use as clothing for Genesis?

Are there any legal to redistribute meshes out there that can serve as a basis for new Genesis clothing to be sold?

Thank you for your response and feedback?

Post edited by Richard Haseltine on
«13

Comments

  • jestmartjestmart Posts: 1,801
    edited December 1969

    No it is not legal, nor is it legal to use retopology or shrinkwrap tools. These are all considered derivatives of the original mesh which is copyrighted by DAZ.

  • RKane_1RKane_1 Posts: 1,150
    edited December 1969

    I understand the retop thing but isn't shrinkwrap taking a different mesh and asking to collapse and conform to another item?

    Wouldn't that still be an original mesh?

  • RKane_1RKane_1 Posts: 1,150
    edited December 1969

    Are there any good tutorials out there?

    If I take the Genesis mesh to ZBrush and make a shirt based upon the Genesis figure by cutting and warping the mesh… is it legal to redistribute for use as clothing for Genesis?

    Are there any legal to redistribute meshes out there that can serve as a basis for new Genesis clothing to be sold?

    I was informed by someone (and I want to confirm) that it is illegal and that you cannot use retopology to change the mesh NOR can you use Shrink wrap technology. Now, I understand the retop thing but isn’t shrinkwrap taking a different mesh and asking to collapse and conform to another item? Wouldn’t that still be an original mesh?

    And what if I were to import the mesh into ZBrush, trace it out in Shadowbox, and then smooth and adjust where needed?

    Is THAT legal? I just want to make clothes and have ZBrush and want to know the best and LEGAL way to do it.

    Thank you for your response and feedback?

  • MattymanxMattymanx Posts: 3,479
    edited December 1969

    You may want to contact DAZ directly and state clearly the method you plan to use and why and they will be able to tell you if it violates the EULA in any way.

  • RKane_1RKane_1 Posts: 1,150
    edited December 1969

    Do you know if they have allowed others to do it (with their previous permission, of course) if the project was worthwhile?

  • patience55patience55 Posts: 6,194
    edited December 1969

    RKane_1 said:
    Are there any good tutorials out there?

    If I take the Genesis mesh to ZBrush and make a shirt based upon the Genesis figure by cutting and warping the mesh… is it legal to redistribute for use as clothing for Genesis?


    Nope.


    Are there any legal to redistribute meshes out there that can serve as a basis for new Genesis clothing to be sold?
    ONLY if you made the mesh yourself ... or if it was a 'starter' that came with instructions saying you may [some have conditions, always read the fine print; when in doubt, don't]


    I was informed by someone (and I want to confirm) that it is illegal and that you cannot use retopology to change the mesh NOR can you use Shrink wrap technology. Now, I understand the retop thing but isn’t shrinkwrap taking a different mesh and asking to collapse and conform to another item? Wouldn’t that still be an original mesh?

    Shrinkwrap is a no-no.


    And what if I were to import the mesh into ZBrush, trace it out in Shadowbox, and then smooth and adjust where needed?

    Is THAT legal? I just want to make clothes and have ZBrush and want to know the best and LEGAL way to do it.

    How you make the clothing 'for yourself only' is one matter. You can use shrinkwrap, etc for yourself ONLY.

    For distributing mesh [free or sale] ... it's best to simply make your own. There are some decent starter suits available for free and/or purchase ... but as you learn how to model you'll probably find yourself making your own 'base model' so while it'll take awhile the first time 'round the block; future projects will have a head start.

    Thank you for your response and feedback?

    You're welcome. [disclaimer, this is not legal advice, I'm not a lawyer ... basically this information is available somewhere on the end user agreement pages if/when one can find them]

  • RKane_1RKane_1 Posts: 1,150
    edited December 1969

    If shrinkwrap is illegal, out of curiousity, how do they know?

    Don't want to anger the DAZ Gods, here, but I am curious how they go about determining how a mesh that has completely different topology is a shrinkwrap. Is it if it is TOO close then they will bring issue with it or ...

    I guess if you model some CLOSE to the Genesis figure, smoothing and collision will take care of most of it any way even on tight stuff.

    I think using the shadowbox might be the best way to get CLOSE to the figure without shrinkwrapping.

    Is anyone here familiar with shadowbox in ZBrush who can advise me on that?

  • GiGi_7GiGi_7 Posts: 822
    edited September 2012

    RKane_1 said:
    Are there any good tutorials out there?

    If I take the Genesis mesh to ZBrush and make a shirt based upon the Genesis figure by cutting and warping the mesh… is it legal to redistribute for use as clothing for Genesis?

    Are there any legal to redistribute meshes out there that can serve as a basis for new Genesis clothing to be sold?

    I was informed by someone (and I want to confirm) that it is illegal and that you cannot use retopology to change the mesh NOR can you use Shrink wrap technology. Now, I understand the retop thing but isn’t shrinkwrap taking a different mesh and asking to collapse and conform to another item? Wouldn’t that still be an original mesh?

    And what if I were to import the mesh into ZBrush, trace it out in Shadowbox, and then smooth and adjust where needed?

    Is THAT legal? I just want to make clothes and have ZBrush and want to know the best and LEGAL way to do it.

    Thank you for your response and feedback?

    Joequick has a basics mesh in Rendo for genesis clothes creation. I suposse it is highly probable that he used Zbrush to create it., but my suposition can be wrong.

    PD: Confirmed, Zbrush.

    http://www.renderosity.com/mod/bcs/genesis-merchant-resource-skirt-and-body-suit-meshes/87228

    Post edited by GiGi_7 on
  • patience55patience55 Posts: 6,194
    edited September 2012

    This is one of the 'merchant resources' for Genesis.

    http://www.renderosity.com/mod/bcs/genesis-merchant-resource-skirt-and-body-suit-meshes/87228

    ....

    xpost! okay ... it's a great set!

    ....................

    And another great present is this item which includes a tutorial.
    http://www.sharecg.com/v/55529/gallery/21/DAZ-Studio/Dress-Genesis

    Post edited by patience55 on
  • GiGi_7GiGi_7 Posts: 822
    edited September 2012

    Fugazi's video tutorial for start from blank.

    http://www.renderosity.com/mod/bcs/the-digital-tailor-bodysuit-edition/87695.

    10$ or 20$ and bye! bye! illegality problem

    PD: shoes too
    http://www.renderosity.com/mod/bcs/the-digital-cobbler-starter-kit/87557

    Post edited by GiGi_7 on
  • SkirikiSkiriki Posts: 4,757
    edited September 2012

    FYI, Rendo has a nice set of conforming "bodysuit" resource kits (men, women, kids) for Genesis, reasonably low cost. There's a free Genesis dress base in ShareCG. Both allow, IIRC, both commercial and freebie items (but obviously no resource kits derived out of 'em) if you modify them to your vision.

    Edit: Oh jeeze, lightning-fast people and slowpoke me. :lol:

    Post edited by Skiriki on
  • edited December 1969

    Also, you don't really need a Genesis quicksuit to get started- Since the quick suits aren't rigged, you can import a V4, M4, or whatever quicksuit, scale it a bit if needed or use the transfer utility.
    Here's a thread that was unfortunately closed/cancled, but has links to some quicksuits for use and tutorials for making clothing:
    http://www.daz3d.com/forums/discussion/2174/
    I didn't see Morphography's quicksuits listed there, but the have free V4/M4 quicksuits and dresses that can be converted over:
    http://www.morphography.uk.vu/dlquicksuits.html
    Axe Swipes suits at Share CG are good for a base, too. I /think/ those are listed in the thread I linked.

  • patience55patience55 Posts: 6,194
    edited December 1969

    Ebahr said:
    ...
    Here's a thread that was unfortunately closed/cancled, but has links to some quicksuits for use and tutorials for making clothing:
    http://www.daz3d.com/forums/discussion/2174/
    I didn't see Morphography's quicksuits listed there, but the have free V4/M4 quicksuits and dresses that can be converted over:
    http://www.morphography.uk.vu/dlquicksuits.html
    ...

    oopsie .... there now! thanks :-)

    Yes I called it closed but it's not locked so I can reopen it if/when that's a good idea. It was started back in the days when posts weren't bumping; and then when they were it like many others were being rather forgotten as more pressing matters loomed.

  • Zev0Zev0 Posts: 3,637
    edited September 2012

    You can use this method in Zbrush, Retopology. It is perfectly legal. You are basically tracing over the base mesh but not using any part of it.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lYT14cXhtQo&feature=related

    Post edited by Zev0 on
  • JimmyC_2009JimmyC_2009 Posts: 8,306
    edited December 1969

    Zev0 said:
    You can use this method in Zbrush, Retopology. It is perfectly legal. You are basically tracing over the base mesh but not using any part of it.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lYT14cXhtQo&feature=related

    As far as i know, this is definitely NOT legal. If you are using someone else's copyrighted mesh, you are copying the shape of it exactly using retopo, and that is not allowed either. If you have created a mesh yourself, you can retopo it to your heart's content, but not one that belongs to someone else.

    If it was allowed, we would all be using Gen 4 and Genesis meshes in ZBrush or 3D Coat to create bodysuits. If it is for your own use in a render, then it is probably all right, but otherwise it would be a big no no.

  • Zev0Zev0 Posts: 3,637
    edited September 2012

    How is that different with me creating clothing in hex and copying the contour shape of the base figure? I am not using the figures mesh at all. I am basically tracing outlines of the shape so my clothing fits. The first part of the vid is what I was talking about, not the second where he does actual mesh extraction.

    Post edited by Zev0 on
  • JimmyC_2009JimmyC_2009 Posts: 8,306
    edited December 1969

    Creating clothing in a modelling package is not anything like retopo. You do not 'trace' the shape of the mesh, you build the clothing around it, and use the original mesh as a tailor's dummy. Retopo on the other hand, places vertices EXACTLY on top of the original copyrighted mesh. (shape)

    I believe that there are many arguments about this at the moment, and until it is tested in law, I doubt if there will be a definitive answer. To my mind, it is unethical at the very least, and any work based on the original mesh to that extent could be considered a derivative.

    I am not using the figures mesh at all. I am basically tracing outlines of the shape so my clothing fits.

    That seems to me like hair splitting. Tracing outlines would be a handy way of producing art work, it would save me the bother of having to learn to draw.

    Anyway, if anyone wants to go down the retopo road to sell items of clothing, then they may run into trouble further down that road.

  • Richard HaseltineRichard Haseltine Posts: 19,866
    edited December 1969

    Manually matching a mesh is fine - you are using your hands and eyes to do the job and DAZ allows it (if you didn't have permission from DAZ even that would not be allowable). But any kind of auto-matching, through retopology or shrink-wrapping, is not allowed. I would hope that most people would consider that the end of the matter, regardless of whether they reckoned they could get away with it or not.

  • Zev0Zev0 Posts: 3,637
    edited December 1969

    I agree that retopo places vertices exactly on the mesh, but that just means I am working closer to it. Eg I created a mini skirt using this method by placing a couple of nodes right across the legs. In wireframe it represents nothing of the original mesh. It only created vertices where I decided to create them eg the number of nodes I used.

  • Zev0Zev0 Posts: 3,637
    edited December 1969

    Manually matching a mesh is fine - you are using your hands and eyes to do the job and DAZ allows it (if you didn't have permission from DAZ even that would not be allowable). But any kind of auto-matching, through retopology or shrink-wrapping, is not allowed. I would hope that most people would consider that the end of the matter, regardless of whether they reckoned they could get away with it or not.

    Thank you.

  • Richard HaseltineRichard Haseltine Posts: 19,866
    edited December 1969

    Merged two threads on the same issue by the same user.

    Please remember that people are voluntarily giving their time to answer your questions - it is highly rude and inconsiderate to start two threads, so that people answering one thread may be wasting their time covering ground that has already been covered by others in the other thread.

  • edited December 1969

    oopsie .... there now! thanks :-)

    Yes I called it closed but it's not locked so I can reopen it if/when that's a good idea. It was started back in the days when posts weren't bumping; and then when they were it like many others were being rather forgotten as more pressing matters loomed.

    :) I have that thread book marked and check it every now and then, just in case it becomes really active again. It was one of the "hidden gems" I came across when looking up info on modeling. :)

    On orig topic, honestly, it might take longer to set up a quicksuit or become comfortable with a downloaded one, but in the end it's worth it, and you really only need to do it once or twice in order to create most anything you could need. Since it is orignal mesh, you can chop it up a million ways from monday, extract it, fold, staple and mutilate it till your hearts content. While I could see where shrink wrapping could be handy for tight fitting clothing and the such, there are advantages of having a standard quicksuit set up: 1.) Low resolution while creating your basic clothing shapes, 2.) I'd imagine a shrink wrapped figure, in the end, would be a pain to UV, 3.) No questions, no worries about legalities or distribution, and have full control over your final creations.
    I may seem like it's a pain, but moving a simple, low res quicksuit into Hexagon, move the verts close to Gen body, hit smooth, adjust as needed,.. You'll have a legal, original meshed quicksuit that fits tight and smooth in no time flat.

  • RKane_1RKane_1 Posts: 1,150
    edited December 1969

    Manually matching a mesh is fine - you are using your hands and eyes to do the job and DAZ allows it (if you didn't have permission from DAZ even that would not be allowable). But any kind of auto-matching, through retopology or shrink-wrapping, is not allowed. I would hope that most people would consider that the end of the matter, regardless of whether they reckoned they could get away with it or not.

    Sorry, I was going to delete the one in the DAZ discussion thread because I realized it would not get as much traffic. I am not privy to how to delete my own thread. Is that possible? I was not trying to be rude, merely perplexed on how to work the new forum.

    How does somebody delete a thread in the new forum?

    So, retopo and shrinkwrap are out.

    What about using the shadowbox method? It is not relying on anything but your eye and hand to guide making a very boxy GENERAL shape which could then be warped by hand and molded by judgement of the artist alone into an agreeable shape.

    I would imagine THIS should pass the litmus test for legal. Am I right?

    Also, if an artist uses the retopo method and provides it to DAZ with full disclosure that retopo was used, can't they still authorize its use if they feel the piece is something they approve of?

    Is that likely in your experience?

    Would they ask for a bigger cut and demand it only be sold through their site? (Rightly so, I would imagine)

  • RKane_1RKane_1 Posts: 1,150
    edited December 1969

    Also, following this line of thought with shrinkwrap, wouldn't those works made from importing Genesis into Maya or 3Ds Max and using a cloth simulator ALSO be in violation as they use the computer to drape over the Genesis mesh as dummy/guide therefore deforming a product around the Genesis mesh?

  • Richard HaseltineRichard Haseltine Posts: 19,866
    edited December 1969

    A cloth simulation to make morphs seems to be deemed acceptable. I don't know how DAZ would respond to an item made via retopology or shrink-wrapping - I suspect they would at least ask a bigger cut, since they did more of the work.

    If a thread is in the wrong place ask the mods to move it - via the report button is the simplest method. I can't recall wheer you put the duplicate thread - was it the Commons or Nuts n Bolts.

  • RKane_1RKane_1 Posts: 1,150
    edited December 1969

    I had placed it in Commons because I figured it would get more traffic.

  • Richard HaseltineRichard Haseltine Posts: 19,866
    edited December 1969

    Moved to the Commons then.

  • RKane_1RKane_1 Posts: 1,150
    edited December 1969

    Thanks so much Richard, I appreciate it!

    :)

    So, to summarize:

    Using DAZ Genesis mesh to "grow clothes from" which can be done in ZBrush - Cannot sell or distribute without DAZ permission which is unlikely. Private use ok.

    "Shrinkwrapping" technology that shrinks a different mesh around the original mesh to conform to that shape - Also cannot sell or distribute without DAZ permission which is unlikely. Private use ok.

    Dynamic Draping of cloth OVER the DAZ Genesis figure - deemed ok

    With the exception of dynamic cloth draping, using a computer program to copy or extrapolate the form of the Genesis mesh - Cannot sell or distribute without DAZ permission which is unlikely. Private use ok.

    Using any method that relies SOLELY on the artist's eye and hand to guide them while using the DAZ Genesis mesh as visual reference only while the Genesis is in the same program you are using - This is okay and preferred.

    Do I have that about right and have I left anything out to anyone's recollection? Are there any questions?

  • patience55patience55 Posts: 6,194
    edited December 1969

    RKane_1 said:
    Thanks so much Richard, I appreciate it!

    :)

    So, to summarize:

    Using DAZ Genesis mesh to "grow clothes from" which can be done in ZBrush - Cannot sell or distribute without DAZ permission which is unlikely. Private use ok.

    "Shrinkwrapping" technology that shrinks a different mesh around the original mesh to conform to that shape - Also cannot sell or distribute without DAZ permission which is unlikely. Private use ok.

    Dynamic Draping of cloth OVER the DAZ Genesis figure - deemed ok

    With the exception of dynamic cloth draping, using a computer program to copy or extrapolate the form of the Genesis mesh - Cannot sell or distribute without DAZ permission which is unlikely. Private use ok.

    Using any method that relies SOLELY on the artist's eye and hand to guide them while using the DAZ Genesis mesh as visual reference only while the Genesis is in the same program you are using - This is okay and preferred.

    Do I have that about right and have I left anything out to anyone's recollection? Are there any questions?

    The only addition information I recall reading about was that said items must be for the figure they are being modeled on. i.e. as add-ons like clothing. NOT for creating competitive figures as in not for making a brand new stand alone figure such as a centaur for a wild example.

  • patience55patience55 Posts: 6,194
    edited December 1969

    Ebahr said:

    oopsie .... there now! thanks :-)

    Yes I called it closed but it's not locked so I can reopen it if/when that's a good idea. It was started back in the days when posts weren't bumping; and then when they were it like many others were being rather forgotten as more pressing matters loomed.

    :) I have that thread book marked and check it every now and then, just in case it becomes really active again. It was one of the "hidden gems" I came across when looking up info on modeling. :)

    ... edit ...

    Wow, a hidden gem. How could I resist that .... new tut uploaded too :-)

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