Digital Art Zone

...the title of this thread is from quote out of the old Star trek film the Wrath of Khan.  It was said by Dr Leonard ‘Bones’ McCoy in reference to a discussion With Mr Spock of what in the story was known as “Genesis”. In the film “Genesis” was a project designed to almost instantaneously terraform a planet. Encapsulated in a device that would be launched into a barren planet where its “matrix” would override that of the native world it was to force creation of a full ecosystem out of “nothing” (hence the name). The downside it used a substance called “protomatter’ which was inherently unstable and in the succeeding episode, ended up tearing the planet apart.

Now here we have our own “Genesis project”. Not quite something from nothing but pretty darn close.  Genesis is designed to be the “all purpose” 3D model.  It is supposed to be able to handle any kind of character from adult to child to creature both “realistic” and “toon”.  What has prompted me to start this thread is learning that my beloved Sadie will soon be available as a Genesis morph. I have a huge investment in the sweet little toon girl and she occupies a fairly large portion of my runtime. Now one would probably say I should be excited about the idea so why the concern? However I am not at all interested. 

To make another Trek reference, Genesis is pretty much like the character Odo from DS9 who had no “real” form.  Basically I consider Genesis to be a “Jack of all Trades, Master of None”.  It is at best, a compromise, it has to be to do everything required of it.

For one To use Genesis requires working in a very unstable application, Studio 4.5 .  There have been many posts from people who are having difficulty with the latest release working properly.  From render crashes, to not saving scenes and settings correctly, to issues with the app’s content management, to the app even crashing while one is working on a scene. This is supposed to be Daz’s “latest and greatest”? Seems that 2.3 was a much more solid release compared to 4.5.  In a sense, Studio4.5 is Daz’s “protomatter”

But it goes further.  As I understand there is to be a change in the Daz file format which will pretty much make any new content unusable in any version of the application before 4.5. Furthermore it may also make some older content unusable in newer versions of the application if this format becomes the only one the programme recognises. Even the early and more stable versions of Studio4 will be made moot by this as they too will not be able to read the new format.

Go to the store and see just how many of the new releases (save for props, vehicles, and environments) are Genesis based. Even the latest PC offerings are predominantly Genesis oriented (I had to go back ten pages to find any Gen4 content).  It was put to me by one member here that standalone figures are dead and Genesis is the future. Supposedly it is easier to create clothing and character content for Genesis than it is for the Gen4 and other older generation figures (like Sadie and Sam).  As I am not a content creator, I cannot really argue one side or the other of this point, I have to take their word for it.

While clothing content for Gen 4 characters could be converted to Gen3 or any other standard rigged character using one of the popular conversion utilities, that is not the case with Genesis.  Genesis clothing will be unique to Genesis because to convert to say Gen4 one needs to translate from a free weight mapped system to a fully rigged one with fixed bones.  Not a simple task.  Meanwhile with the Autofit tool and CCT’s, clothing from older generation figures can be adapted for use with Genesis.

So once again, the older generation figures lose out as most if not all of the new clothing content is being created exclusively for Genesis and cannot be converted.

In this way, Daz has written off the older generation models and those who still use them whether they are Poser artists or still work in one of the older versions of Studio.

Seven years ago a then popular RPG publisher (not WotC) made a similar move when they gutted what was once a great game system turning it basically into a P & P version of an MMO. The idea, like here, was to attract a whole new audience which came at the expense of the system’s long time supporters (myself being one) who felt alienated and left. In a number of posts I have been reading, in the fourms the same is beginning to occur here.  Some of it is due to the website, some due to changes in policy, and some due to issues with all the emphasis on Genesis and the “bugginess” Studio4.

As I am finally readying a new system build, I am reluctant to install 4.5 or even 4.0.3.47Pro (as the latter is pretty much now an orphan).

Were it not for Daz I would never have returned to creating pictures again because of my arthritis.  I am not saying Daz owes me anything for they gave me a creative outlet again.  I’m just disappointed in the way things are being handled, with releasing new features being more important than developing a solid core application.  They have the base of something so good here but they seem to be squandering it all for the “flashy” and “new”.

As a major soft drink producer once said “Image is Nothing” To that I would like to add “A Solid Foundation is Everything”.

OK, pick up your bricks and get ready to throw them…

Even the latest PC offerings are predominantly Genesis oriented (I had to go back ten pages to find any Gen4 content).

The current PC freebie is for V4. It is on the first page of new releases.

Kyoto Kid - 03 September 2012 11:10 PM

Basically I consider Genesis to be a “Jack of all Trades, Master of None”.  It is at best, a compromise, it has to be to do everything required of it.

All meshes, and all applications and plugins, are compromises.  All automatic clothing converters, for example, work well on some clothing and less well on others, but they are still useful.  David, SP3, A3, H3, Luke, and Laura were all made from the V3 mesh—did that make them inherently not as good as the P4 figures (I originally typed “Gen 2 figures”, but the Gen 2 kids were all made from V2’s mesh)?

Kyoto Kid - 03 September 2012 11:10 PM

For one To use Genesis requires working in a very unstable application, Studio 4.5 .  There have been many posts from people who are having difficulty with the latest release working properly.  From render crashes, to not saving scenes and settings correctly, to issues with the app’s content management, to the app even crashing while one is working on a scene. This is supposed to be Daz’s “latest and greatest”? Seems that 2.3 was a much more solid release compared to 4.5.  In a sense, Studio4.5 is Daz’s “protomatter”

A lot of people find that DS4.5 is far more stable than 4.0.  And a LOT of fixes were needed to turn 2.0 into 2.3.3.46, and 3.0 into 3.1.2.32.  They were buggy to start.  As I recall, the Content Manager introduced in DS2 was a lot buggier in my experience than CMS.

Kyoto Kid - 03 September 2012 11:10 PM

But it goes further.  As I understand there is to be a change in the Daz file format which will pretty much make any new content unusable in any version of the application before 4.5. Furthermore it may also make some older content unusable in newer versions of the application if this format becomes the only one the programme recognises.

Just as .daz files made in DS4.0.3.47 are unusable in 4.0.3.36, or those made in 3.1.2.32 are unusable in 3.1.2.31?  Or how .daz files from DS0-1 don’t work in DS3?  DS4.5 continues to use content made in Poser formats, as well as the .ds scripts from DS0-2.  While I agree that I hope DAZ 3D does not in future stop reading .daz files, that format has a lot of problems and keeping it as the preferred format hasn’t guaranteed compatibility.

took me 3.33 mins to render
(in Carrara though)

I still use V4 and M4 in every image I make…no one is saying that you must switch to Genesis. I would understand some of the complaints if the Gen 4 figures suddenly no longer worked in Studio or if DAZ had immediately ceased all support, but that hasn’t happened.

Studio also works for many people (myself included), so it’s not fair to generalize it as “unstable software”.

...I’m not saying that the earlier generation figures don’t have their own issues.  I wouldn’t have a number of the Gen4 joint fix utilities and scripts were that not the case.  What I’m more concerned about is how many content creators have left Gen4 in favour of Genesis.  Again, unlike the previous generations, Genesis clothing cannot be made backwards compatible though the use of a conversion utility as say Gen4 clothing could be converted to Gen3.

So basically Genesis can take advantage of older clothing content through use of the Autofit tool and CCTs but Gen3 & 4 are left with whatever is currently available for them.

As to 4.5, given the experiences I’ve had with 4.0.3.47, I tend to take more stock in comments by those who are having issues with 4.5, especially since some have systems more powerful and capable than what I am currently working on or ready to bring online.

Basically what I want is for Daz to slow down, stop spending so much time and resources on developing new features, and focus on making the what they already have more stable and reliable. A lot of nice paint and pretty decorations on a rickety frame does not make for a very good house.

If I didn’t care about the future of Daz and the Studio application, I would not have endured the issues with the website update all these months. I’d like to see things get worked out, see Studio become a good solid programme. but so far it seems just like more of the “same old same old”.

Let’s see… Gonna pick five pictures that I have just recently done with Genesis and its morphs alone.

You know what? As far as compromises go, this is friggin’ sweet.

And an another you know what? Now I am not forced to use skankwear for my wimmin if it wasn’t my plan—I can borrow anyone’s wardrobe to make it good. This is more important to me than perfect-perfect-perfect just there shapes (which, of course, aren’t that perfect to me, as I like knob-twisting and slider-pushing and making the shape mine).

Also: 4.5 has been incredibly stable in my system. It renders faster as well. Plugins are getting updated (and I just noticed that Adobe Photoshop CS5’s some update has made my preferred plugin set non-compatible with it, so I can’t use them until creator updates and this is unlikely to happen—this is not an unique problem to 3D stuff).

But I don’t know what to say beyond this. If you’re set in your ways, I cannot say anything to budge your opinion. All I can say is “I freakin’ love Genesis because it allows me to make things from scratch”.

As to 4.5, given the experiences I’ve had with 4.0.3.47, I tend to take more stock in comments by those who are having issues with 4.5, especially since some have systems more powerful and capable than what I am currently working on or ready to bring online.

The reality of that is that people who don’t have problems and don’t generally turn up on the forums are not going to pop around just to start a thread saying “all is well”. When people do post issues it seems as if there must be some sort of a big issue. Unless of course you realize that several thousand have not posted and that only a fraction of the total user base has had an issue. If your one of the people who has an issue, be it with the software or due to user error it is still a big, huge deal. But it isn’t really indicative actual numbers. Now if 2000 people popped in and said program crashed every time they did x thing it would be a very different story.

Kyoto Kid - 04 September 2012 12:53 AM

...I’m not saying that the earlier generation figures don’t have their own issues.  I wouldn’t have a number of the Gen4 joint fix utilities and scripts were that not the case.  What I’m more concerned about is how many content creators have left Gen4 in favour of Genesis.  Again, unlike the previous generations, Genesis clothing cannot be made backwards compatible though the use of a conversion utility as say Gen4 clothing could be converted to Gen3.

Untrue.  There are now conversion modules available for the usual suspects.  Obviously, with the limitations of Gen4/Poser many features of Genesis clothing are lost, but the static objects can be converted.

Kyoto Kid - 04 September 2012 12:53 AM

So basically Genesis can take advantage of older clothing content through use of the Autofit tool and CCTs but Gen3 & 4 are left with whatever is currently available for them.

Part of the beauty and advantage of Genesis.

Kyoto Kid - 04 September 2012 12:53 AM

As to 4.5, given the experiences I’ve had with 4.0.3.47, I tend to take more stock in comments by those who are having issues with 4.5, especially since some have systems more powerful and capable than what I am currently working on or ready to bring online.

I’m using systems WAY out of the supported stream, even to the point of using translated library code… DS4.5 runs great!  If anyone should be having problems, it is the Linux/WINE users.  Truly, many of the problems reported are due to OS’s that need cleaned/repaired,  systems with endemic problems, or an issue between the keyboard and the floor.  Yes, there have been actual bugs found, but many fewer than with the “other software” people like to compare against, now on it’s third fix set.  Oh, and guess what… they’re adding features in bug fix packs too!  Wow!  What?  No one grousing about that?

Gotta love the double standards… DAZ does it:  SHAME!  Poser/SM does it:  KUDOS!

BTW, want to know what one of the first questions Autodesk asks when one calls for support and you indicate you’re using Windows?  “When did you last re-install your OS?”  If the answer is more than six months ago, then they recommend that you do it.  You know what Maya+AutoCAD+Revit+yearly maintenance subscription cost?  And they recommend a clean OS before you call them.  Gotta tell you something…

Kendall

Kyoto Kid - 04 September 2012 12:53 AM

As to 4.5, given the experiences I’ve had with 4.0.3.47, I tend to take more stock in comments by those who are having issues with 4.5, especially since some have systems more powerful and capable than what I am currently working on or ready to bring online.

Basically what I want is for Daz to slow down, stop spending so much time and resources on developing new features, and focus on making the what they already have more stable and reliable. A lot of nice paint and pretty decorations on a rickety frame does not make for a very good house.

To run with your analogy, this is a pretty damn solid house, but there’s not much DAZ can do if people choose to erect it on dodgy foundations. There has always been a degree of incompatibility issues in Window systems, they’re just too individually bespoke, with drivers which may or may not be individually up to date and/or mutually incompatible. A recent Vista update has introduced an incompatibility with the mouse drivers I’ve been using without issue for the last 3 or more years that is making my laptop BSOD about once a fortnight - if a company with the resources of Microsoft can’t get it right, then might you not be trying to hold DAZ to an unreasonable standard of performance?

Remember, you only see the complaints about DS4.5, people like me, who have been using it several hours a day, every day, since it was released, have no reason to post anything.

Kyoto Kid - 04 September 2012 12:53 AM

So basically Genesis can take advantage of older clothing content through use of the Autofit tool and CCTs but Gen3 & 4 are left with whatever is currently available for them.

Not entirely. I’m finding most Genesis clothing makes a reasonable fit on V4, particularly if you turn up smoothing and collision detection a couple of notches, see the example below with Genesis OL on V4 Addison*, which is far more backward compatibility than Gen 4 offered Gen 3, yet everyone still made the move to predominantly using Gen 4. I haven’t experimented enough to know whether this is also true of Gen 3.

* Ignore the eyes, not quite sure what’s happening there.

I think that most of my own reluctance to install 4.5 comes down to the statement that it deinstalls 4.0 in the process. If it would allow both versions to remain installed on the same system, I’d have already started trying to work in it. After all, 4.0 will peacefully coexist with DS3A on the same system. I don’t see why 4.0 and 4.5 can’t do the same. For the record, I use a top of the line iMac (well, it was top of the line about 15 months ago) with the memory upgraded to 16GB. Everything else is the stock configuration. I’m hanging onto OS X.6.8, because I have legacy software that Lion won’t run. To all appearances, Studio 4 runs fine. (Studio 3 gave me all kinds of problems when I first started out. But Studio 3 only ran in 32-bit mode on a Mac.)

I’m already fairly committed to Genesis, because I’m finding Genesis to be a *great* platform for building my own characters. It really is a better platform for building/modifying faces than I ever found Gen4 to be, even if one does have to make a degree of investment in 3rd-party add-ons to do it. You had to do that with Gen4 as well. From the looks of the products which have shown up in the store in the past year I suspect that the same can probably be said for building/modifying bodies as well.

And the fact that the clothing made for Genesis will follow the morphs as well (at least within reason) is just pure gravy.

But I agree that there are still pieces either missing or lagging rather far behind. Not surprising given that Genesis has only been out about a year and a lot of developers have either been slow to adopt, or have continued to resist. My understanding is that at this point in Gen4’s development, Gen 4 still consisted only of Victoria4 (I wasn’t around in 2007—or maybe early 2008 so I don’t know whether that was V4.1 or V4.2) and nothing else. What appears to be different this time round is that the first priority in Genesis character development was to get the legacy shapes ported over and back into circulation on the new platform so that people could continue to make use of their existing content. It wasn’t a perfect transition by any means, but it was at least an attempt. And one which was made *before* releasing a whole line of new Gen5 figures. DAZ does clearly hope that Studio users will continue to purchase legacy content specifically for use with Genesis. It may ultimately be up to 3rd-party developers to provide more accurate translation tools for given classes of items which are not well served by autofit, but that we will have to wait and see.

I suspect that I’ll be even more committed to Genesis once I make the time to properly learn GenX. For I’ve seen examples posted which convince me that it really is possible to port convincing versions of the character morphs which I want to keep over from their Gen3 and Gen4 origins and add them to my toolbox for future character building.

But, of course, I can only speak for myself.

I will say that one of the most hopeful things which I’ve seen is 3Duniverse’s statement that they’ve managed to build a clone model of their Sadie for Genesis morph target for more accurate autofitting of existing Sadie content to the Genesis version. I could see a niche market for someone to build similar clone targets for the Gen4 and Gen3 characters which have not been addressed already. It probably would be a limited market, but there are any number of people who would very much like to have a proper clone target for autofitting K4 or the Gen 3 kid figures’ clothing to the Basic Child figure.

For that matter, if the clone target is what is needed to get *any* clothing item into Studio for the use of Genesis, there are outfits out there for Apollo Maximus or Miki whatever number, or any number of other figures that Studio users would be veery happy to pick up along the way. It would be like purchasing a character license for CrossDresser or Wardrobe Wizard.

To be fair, you couldn’t have DS 3.0 and DS 3.1 both installed, either.  That’s always been an issue with updating, although I would say 4.0 -> 4.5 represents a huge step (although it also includes a huge number of bug fixes).  DS 3.1.2.32 was a nice reliable version, but it took a while to get there, and there are still people using 3.0.1.120

3rd party Autofit clones may be problematic, as the owner of the original is probably the only one with the right to distribute.

@ Kyoto Kid
I feel you pain Kid.  I have giving up hope and pretty much on buying anything new at daz that is created just for Daz
Even the Read me files have disappeared in the new products

Don’t get me wrong I love Daz 3a. Daz4 or 4.5 not at all and I’ll leave it at that. Though I am still very excited with poser and I can use all my new poser content in my daz3a. and vice-versa. I have also learned to use textures made with the SSS maps can also be used in Daz3a but you have to make a few little tweaks to the refection adjustments & Plus I love the warm glow of IDL lighting.

But those who throw bricks at us for the comments we make on the Daz new direction and endless flaws and program changes will some day be where we are now complaining about all they have spent and how the game changed for them. I was once in there shoes. now i am on the outside looking in. I have just giving up
I mostly come here to support my friends i have made here and their art.
So I am not going to put down Daz or their decision on how to run their company. Really Who cares. I simple will not spend my money on things i can’t use. and I will never buy another Daz program after paying for one in the early adopter offer and then it was given away.  but that was my fault for jumping the gun and buying it before i knew what it was and its issues.

I have giving up hope and pretty much on buying anything new at daz that is created just for Daz

I know I am prickly this week.. But I always find statements like that to be rather painful to hear. And not just because I’ve had a daz only product come out in the last couple of weeks. But because its so similar to people who say “nothing is ever for V4 any more” when several PA’s still work exclusively with her. I fully understand “different strokes for different folks” and everyone’s taste/needs are different. But things not being to your taste or fitting your personal needs really doesn’t mean everything put out is bad or not going to fill someone else’s needs.

Well, bye and good luck in all your future endeavors.