Digital Art Zone

 
   
2 of 4
2
What If We Made Bryce an Open Code Project—Wait hear me out
Posted: 25 August 2012 06:19 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 16 ]
Member
Avatar
Rank
Total Posts:  218
Joined  2003-10-09
Is there any chance it’s just the registration process fouling things up but the rest of the program might work fine if a different registration process could be implemented?

I thought (and hoped) that at first but some people with laptop Macs got through the registration OK but Bryce crashed when using any of the controls.

Profile
 
 
Posted: 25 August 2012 10:45 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 17 ]
Active Member
RankRank
Total Posts:  457
Joined  2005-11-06
Oroboros - 25 August 2012 05:51 PM

I’ll bet if the DAZ crowdsourced the problem they’d get it fixed for a pittance.

Horo - 25 August 2012 10:34 AM

@Oro - if you knew how I searched to get hold of an Axiom tool that works for Bryce. No chance, it’s proprietary.

If what Dan says is true (and I’d be a brave dragon to contradict him deliberately) Axiom handles the interface and not the math.

I’m starting to get a little miffed now, because this comes down to possibly the thorniest issue Bryce users have about Bryce: preserving the interface. It ALSO means that the development of the product is hindered, not by the fundamental code, but by the code that drives the bells and whistles.

.

I’m sure devoted Brycers would support an interface change if it meant improvements overall to Bryce and a movement forward in development:-) I can’t imagine that a similar looking interface couldn’t be developed using different code. I love the interface but wouldn’t object to some changes as long as the ease of use of the application remained the same.

 Signature 

BEGINNERS TUTORIALS FOR BRYCE
MY DAZ 3d STORE  for Bryce & DAZ Studio Materials and Shaders
BRYCE ARENA News and resources for Bryce

Profile
 
 
Posted: 26 August 2012 02:02 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 18 ]
Active Member
Avatar
RankRank
Total Posts:  931
Joined  2003-10-09
dan whiteside - 25 August 2012 06:19 PM

I thought (and hoped) that at first but some people with laptop Macs got through the registration OK but Bryce crashed when using any of the controls.

Oh well it would be pretty unlikely it had gone this long and it was just that. I just figured it was worth asking since it seemed like everyone got stopped at the registration.

Profile
 
 
Posted: 29 August 2012 04:33 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 19 ]
New Member
Total Posts:  14
Joined  2003-12-14

Perhaps it would be easier to work in the Bryce documentation… for instance in a wiki style…
We could ask DAZ to release the official documentation with a creative commons licence and use it as a base to build upon.

Ramon

 

Profile
 
 
Posted: 29 August 2012 05:19 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 20 ]
Addict
Avatar
RankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  2701
Joined  2004-07-06
Oroboros - 25 August 2012 05:51 PM

I’ll bet if the DAZ crowdsourced the problem they’d get it fixed for a pittance.

Horo - 25 August 2012 10:34 AM

@Oro - if you knew how I searched to get hold of an Axiom tool that works for Bryce. No chance, it’s proprietary.

If what Dan says is true (and I’d be a brave dragon to contradict him deliberately) Axiom handles the interface and not the math.

I’m starting to get a little miffed now, because this comes down to possibly the thorniest issue Bryce users have about Bryce: preserving the interface. It ALSO means that the development of the product is hindered, not by the fundamental code, but by the code that drives the bells and whistles.

That’s like being stopped from driving your new car because someone far shorter than you has PERMANENTLY locked all seat, steering and mirror configurations for them.

Yes the interface is a thorny issue indeed.  Because it involves workflow and that requires an interface expert to figure out how to do it best.  The programmers, bless them, while mathematical geniuses and experts in the field of programming Bryce, were at a total loss when it came to interface - look at IL.  Not their fault, not their field.  But it shows, it has to be handled by someone who knows what they are doing - otherwise you end up in “spread sheet” land.  I think you are right in what you have said, the interface is the sticking point.

 Signature 

that Bryce Tutorials Info and this Products made by Horo and myself and a link to my gallery at DAZ 3D

Profile
 
 
Posted: 29 August 2012 06:31 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 21 ]
Addict
Avatar
RankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  3839
Joined  2004-10-01
rubidium - 29 August 2012 04:33 AM

Perhaps it would be easier to work in the Bryce documentation… for instance in a wiki style…
We could ask DAZ to release the official documentation with a creative commons licence and use it as a base to build upon.

Ramon

There was serious work on the documentation with a lot of volunteer work. However, it was stopped in February last year about one to two labour weeks short. Bryce is not alone, Carrara and Hexagon don’t fare better. Neither Studio but there was some talk about doing the Studio documentation first and the other applications will come later.

The WIP doc for Bryce 7 and the complete Bryce 6 can be found here: http://docs.daz3d.com/doku.php/artzone/pub/software/bryce/start. The Bryce 6 doc is worthwhile to have a look at. The Bryce 7 doc is incomplete but the Sky Lab is complete and up to date to for Bryce 7.1.0.109.

 Signature 

**  [ Stuff by David Brinnen and myself**  [ My DAZ 3D Gallery**  [ My Website**  OPC 4565 **

Profile
 
 
Posted: 29 August 2012 10:54 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 22 ]
Active Member
Avatar
RankRank
Total Posts:  399
Joined  2003-10-09
Eva1 - 24 August 2012 11:59 PM

... Axiom iitself is now Open Source, so maybe that would make a difference?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Axiom_(computer_algebra_system)

From the sound of it, that’s a very different Axiom. I may be wrong: I’d never heard of Axiom as part of Bryce before today. I know that Bryce contains a substantial proprietary framework, but I didn’t know it was named Axiom.

Eva1 - 24 August 2012 11:59 PM

I’m wondering how difficult it would be to re-write Bryce. I think DAZ really should consider doing this going forward ...

DAZ have already made a start on this. It’s called Carrara. (ducks)

Seriously, though, Carrara’s landscape and atmospherics features are taking it into Bryce territory. I don’t know what DAZ’s actual plans are, but if I were them I’d be very tempted to improve Carrara’s capabilities in this area rather than expend effort, time and money on reviving Bryce. Carrara has a modern codebase and a team of developers who understand it; Bryce has neither. Carrara integrates well with DAZ’s other products and, most importantly, with the content that is DAZ’s bread and butter. Bryce is dependent on the notoriously flaky Studio-to-Bryce bridge.

From the business perspective, this choice should be pretty much a no-brainer. I would not be surprised if DAZ have already made a decision on this point, although nothing has been said.

Eva1 - 24 August 2012 11:59 PM

Could DAZ not invest in getting someone in to do that?  I think it would be worth it.

I would like to believe you are right, but my back-of-the-envelope guesstimates suggest that DAZ would be hard put to cover the necessary development costs just by selling copies of Bryce, and that Bryce isn’t a big enough driver of content sales to make it a priority for future development dollars.

But I may be totally off the mark on this: I haven’t seen DAZ’s books, so I have no idea how much development work actually costs them, or how many copies of Bryce they sell.

 

 

 Signature 

http://bytescapes.com/            Bryce/Carrara/Reality galleries and resources

Profile
 
 
Posted: 29 August 2012 11:22 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 23 ]
Administrator
Avatar
RankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  17134
Joined  2003-10-09

Bryce isn’t a big enough driver of content sales to make it a priority for future development dollars.


That is really rather a biased point of view, and not at all true imo I am a committed Brycer, if you hadn’t guessed, and I would not like to add up how much I have spent here on content, all of which is used in Bryce when it is used.

I only bought Poser in the first place in order to have figures in my Bryce images,

It may not seem to generate content sales because most content can be transferred into Bryce, either by way of Poser or by using DS.

I am not the only Brycer who spends mega bucks on content.

Edited to add that there are more dedicated Bryce items in the store than there are for Carrara, so you could also say that Carrara doesn’t generate content sales cool smirk

 Signature 

Chohole’s Space        NeilV’s Freebies and stuff        Winter Bryce Rendering Challenge        December Freebie Challenge
My DAZ 3D Gallery    11915

Profile
 
 
Posted: 29 August 2012 11:35 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 24 ]
Addict
Avatar
RankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  3839
Joined  2004-10-01

@angusm - Carrara is a spin-off of Bryce, as Poser is. Look at the interface. I have owned Carrara from v2 up to v8 and there is a reason why I stick to Bryce. This is not to say that Carrara is not a worthy program. It sports a couple of features that makes us brycers drool. There are also quite a few features so advanced Carrara doesn’t have them yet. Carrara aims at a different market than Bryce, Carrara as a landscaper and Bryce as an univeral application good for just about any type of artwork. If DAZ 3D had sticked to Bryce and not acquired Eovia as well, Bryce would have been given a bit more attention. Bryce and Studio have been a very nice combination since Bryce 5.5 and Studio 2.3. As far as I know, there is still no bridge from Studio to Carrara.

 Signature 

**  [ Stuff by David Brinnen and myself**  [ My DAZ 3D Gallery**  [ My Website**  OPC 4565 **

Profile
 
 
Posted: 29 August 2012 11:51 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 25 ]
Administrator
Avatar
RankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  17134
Joined  2003-10-09

I actually bought Ray Dream studio, which was a forerunner of Carrara, and came from the same stable as Bryce and Poser.

 Signature 

Chohole’s Space        NeilV’s Freebies and stuff        Winter Bryce Rendering Challenge        December Freebie Challenge
My DAZ 3D Gallery    11915

Profile
 
 
Posted: 29 August 2012 12:02 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 26 ]
Active Member
Avatar
RankRank
Total Posts:  399
Joined  2003-10-09
Horo - 29 August 2012 11:35 AM

@angusm - Carrara is a spin-off of Bryce, as Poser is. Look at the interface.

I’m not sure what you mean by ‘spinoff’ in this case but yes, the Carrara interface was clearly heavily influenced by Bryce’s. At a time when the standard for 3D apps was a forest of cryptic gray menus, Bryce - and then Carrara, in imitation - tried to make the interface look gorgeous.

The price to pay for this, of course, is that a completely custom interface is the first thing to break when the OS vendor pulls the rug out from under you. I think this is what happened to Bryce.

Horo - 29 August 2012 11:35 AM

I have owned Carrara from v2 up to v8 and there is a reason why I stick to Bryce.

Several reasons, I should think.

I should say to all the Bryce fans whose ire I’ve aroused by dissing the program that I’m actually a Bryce user from way back, and am fully aware of its strengths. Bryce was my introduction to 3D, and I still find it a pleasure to use. The interface, which was widely scorned as “quirky” by people from the forest-of-gray-menus school of application design, contains some very intuitive and efficient features. And the underlying rendering and materials engines are extraordinarily powerful.

My loyalties are kind of split at the moment. I’ve actually come to like Carrara a lot, and use it for many things I would once have done in Bryce. But then I run up against the limitations of its half-finished atmosphere engine (or it just flat out crashes on me) and I start yearning for Bryce again. At least I finally got around to making Bryce run under Parallels, so I’m not totally Bryce-less.

Horo - 29 August 2012 11:35 AM

Carrara aims at a different market than Bryce, Carrara as a landscaper and Bryce as an univeral application good for just about any type of artwork.

I would have put it the other way around: Carrara as a ‘universal’ tool, and Bryce as (primarily) a landscape modeler. But it’s true that you can use Bryce to create things that go far beyond simple landscapes (anyone remember Bryan Smith’s gorgeous abstracts, which he called ‘think pieces’?)

Horo - 29 August 2012 11:35 AM

As far as I know, there is still no bridge from Studio to Carrara.

You can use the DAZ Collada format, after a fashion. I generally prefer to just pose the figures directly in Carrara. As a figure posing tool, Carrara is almost as good as (some might say better than) Studio.

I’ve no idea what the long-term future of Bryce will be. I hope that the technical issues with its codebase don’t doom it, and that it survives in some shape or form. As I’ve said, I’m pessimistic - but I’d be delighted to be proved wrong.

 Signature 

http://bytescapes.com/            Bryce/Carrara/Reality galleries and resources

Profile
 
 
Posted: 29 August 2012 01:02 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 27 ]
Addict
Avatar
RankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  3839
Joined  2004-10-01

@angusm - thank you for your reply. Perhaps I would appreciate Carrara more of I had invested as mucht time to get the hang of it as I did for Bryce. According to the Wiki “Carrara: Originally acquired from MetaCreations, Carrara is a toolset used for 3D modeling, texturing, animation, and industrial design.” MetaCreations brought out Bryce v1.0 in 1994 for the Mac. For the history of Carrara see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carrara_(software) assuming it is correct what can be read.

 Signature 

**  [ Stuff by David Brinnen and myself**  [ My DAZ 3D Gallery**  [ My Website**  OPC 4565 **

Profile
 
 
Posted: 29 August 2012 01:38 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 28 ]
Active Member
Avatar
RankRank
Total Posts:  399
Joined  2003-10-09
Horo - 29 August 2012 01:02 PM

@angusm - thank you for your reply. Perhaps I would appreciate Carrara more of I had invested as mucht time to get the hang of it as I did for Bryce.

Perhaps you should. And then I could buy your DVDs and finally figure out how to really use the software. grin

Horo - 29 August 2012 01:02 PM

For the history of Carrara see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carrara_(software) assuming it is correct what can be read.

I think that’s basically correct.

One thing it doesn’t describe in detail is the story of Carrara during the final days of MetaCreations.

MetaCreations was produced by the merger of Fractal and MetaTools, but the people who were running it at the end weren’t the founders of those companies. They were a bunch of business guys - MBA types - who’d been brought in to run the company. I can’t remember the name of the CEO at that time, but he’d come from HP, where his big contribution had been to lay off about 1,000 people. (Edit: it was Gary Lauer)

According to a friend who worked for MetaCreations, management called in the entire workforce one morning and told them “Most of you are fired, get out.”

Carrara 1.0, which was buggy as hell, had shipped shortly before that. MetaCreations was already moving towards focusing on their Viewpoint 3D technology, so they had no interest in Bryce or the KPT tools. Carrara, however, was part of their big strategy: I think they may have planned to sell it to people who might use Viewpoint, as a way of creating Viewpoint content. In any case, Carrara was the one software product that they wanted to keep developing.

Unfortunately, among the people they laid off were the entire Carrara team. So about three days after the mass firing, one of the business geniuses now running the much-reduced company woke up and said “Wait a minute, those guys we fired, what did they do, exactly?” When they realized that they’d just fired the people who were supposed to be fixing the software that was part of their Great Plan for the Future, they flew into several kinds of panic, and ended up having to hire Antoine and his people back as (very expensive) consultants to work on the 1.1 release.

They also reportedly sent faxes to their French and German offices saying “You’ve all been fired, leave now.” The French and the Germans sent back faxes that said “I don’t think so. Read some European labor law.” The business geniuses were very surprised to learn that US law didn’t apply to their European employees, and that if they wanted to fire everyone at a moment’s notice, they had to give them severance pay. That was another cost that they hadn’t taken into account when they put together their big new business plan.

As the Wikipedia article says, Antoine Clappier and his colleagues then formed Eovia, and were able to buy Carrara back (because now the MBAs really didn’t know what to do with it), and then later to sell it to DAZ.

 Signature 

http://bytescapes.com/            Bryce/Carrara/Reality galleries and resources

Profile
 
 
Posted: 30 August 2012 12:37 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 29 ]
Addict
Avatar
RankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  3839
Joined  2004-10-01

Interesting, though unsettling history. Fact is that MetaCreations managed to kill itself by utter mismanagement. Pity, it would have had the potential for a great future.

 Signature 

**  [ Stuff by David Brinnen and myself**  [ My DAZ 3D Gallery**  [ My Website**  OPC 4565 **

Profile
 
 
Posted: 30 August 2012 04:14 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 30 ]
Administrator
Avatar
RankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  17134
Joined  2003-10-09

Yes one does tend to mutter things about “THrowing the baby out with the bathwater” rolleyes

And then of course Curious Labs managed to do a similar thing with Poser, which was the reason DAZ 3D started working on Daz Studio, because for a while it looked like Poser would go right down the pan.

 Signature 

Chohole’s Space        NeilV’s Freebies and stuff        Winter Bryce Rendering Challenge        December Freebie Challenge
My DAZ 3D Gallery    11915

Profile
 
 
   
2 of 4
2