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Real-world and 3D scaling, split from Stephanie 5 thread
Posted: 23 August 2012 01:51 AM   [ Ignore ]
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according to the real world measurement in 3D
Stephanie 5 is 7.12 m = 23.35’ feet according to genesis base that is 8.5 m = 26.41 ’ feet

and the way DS scale own human models she is for real 712 m = 2335.96’ feet
according to genesis base that is 805m = 2641.08’feet in DAZ STUDIO

if you want Stephanie to be 1.60 m =  5.2 ’ feet you need to scale her down in DS to 40.79 %
then you have the real height of 5.2’ feet

the height-scale you used is imagined scale and not accurate .
Daz Studio measurements are not real world measurements as the scales of all models are 59.12 % to big smile

adamr001 - 22 August 2012 11:31 AM

against the heightscale I’ve used for years…

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Posted: 23 August 2012 04:45 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 1 ]
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Mec4D - 23 August 2012 01:51 AM

according to the real world measurement in 3D
Stephanie 5 is 7.12 m = 23.35’ feet according to genesis base that is 8.5 m = 26.41 ’ feet

and the way DS scale own human models she is for real 712 m = 2335.96’ feet
according to genesis base that is 805m = 2641.08’feet in DAZ STUDIO

if you want Stephanie to be 1.60 m =  5.2 ’ feet you need to scale her down in DS to 40.79 %
then you have the real height of 5.2’ feet

the height-scale you used is imagined scale and not accurate .
Daz Studio measurements are not real world measurements as the scales of all models are 59.12 % to big smile

adamr001 - 22 August 2012 11:31 AM

against the heightscale I’ve used for years…

Nonsense. DAZ Studio units are 1cm, as long as you use the correct preset when importing an OBJ they will match the real-world units in other modelling applications. Remember that OBJ has no scale, and that Poser calliper models are made to various “Poser” scale (traditional 1 PNU = eight feet, which is what DAZ uses, dr Geep 1PNU = 100”, and official scale of 1PNU = 8.6 feet; callipers for other applications will similarly be marked to fit whatever that application takes an OBJ unit to equal).

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Posted: 23 August 2012 04:50 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 2 ]
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Mec4D - 23 August 2012 01:51 AM

the height-scale you used is imagined scale and not accurate .
Daz Studio measurements are not real world measurements

Studio uses an internal scaling ratio of 1 unit = 1cm, that’s internally consistent and therefore directly translatable to real world heights. I’m not sure what height prop Adam is using, but I’m willing to bet he’s checked it against Studio primitives of fixed sizes.

Any virtual scale is by necessity virtual only and based on an assumed scaling ratio - just imagine the same model shown on a 22” monitor and then on a 60”, same virtual scale, but significant difference in real world size - for Studio that scaling ratio is 1 unit = 1 cm and if a Studio figure is 155 units tall, then she is 5’ 2” (155 cm) in comparison to any other model or item in Studio and does not need to be scaled in either direction.

It’s entirely possible that the models import as a different size in a different 3D tool, but what matters is the consistent scaling ratio internal to Studio.

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Posted: 23 August 2012 06:48 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 3 ]
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Richard that is not NONSENSE
1 unit = 1 cm so Stephanie is 712 cm what is 7.12 m = 23.35 feet
I am doing lately a lot of clothing for Genesis with real world measurements
10.000% in DS is 1% in real world and the human figures does not have regular human height in DS , no matter what you export or import, I am not an idiot I know my tools as I work with it daily .
Stephanie exported at the right conversion 1 unit= 1m for the real world measurement program is 7.12 m = 23.35 feet

and I did not talk about or mention Poser as it have another not physical correct measurements

think only about when you export object from DS at a 1unit = 1m how much % you will see ? 1%
and if you import 1 unit=1 m how much you will see 100%? no 10.000 % so make your mat

and that is accurate as I import in and out object made with physical correct measurements and genesis base is over 8 m height
and that is a fact. 

Richard Haseltine - 23 August 2012 04:45 AM
Mec4D - 23 August 2012 01:51 AM

according to the real world measurement in 3D
Stephanie 5 is 7.12 m = 23.35’ feet according to genesis base that is 8.5 m = 26.41 ’ feet

and the way DS scale own human models she is for real 712 m = 2335.96’ feet
according to genesis base that is 805m = 2641.08’feet in DAZ STUDIO

if you want Stephanie to be 1.60 m =  5.2 ’ feet you need to scale her down in DS to 40.79 %
then you have the real height of 5.2’ feet

the height-scale you used is imagined scale and not accurate .
Daz Studio measurements are not real world measurements as the scales of all models are 59.12 % to big smile

adamr001 - 22 August 2012 11:31 AM

against the heightscale I’ve used for years…

Nonsense. DAZ Studio units are 1cm, as long as you use the correct preset when importing an OBJ they will match the real-world units in other modelling applications. Remember that OBJ has no scale, and that Poser calliper models are made to various “Poser” scale (traditional 1 PNU = eight feet, which is what DAZ uses, dr Geep 1PNU = 100”, and official scale of 1PNU = 8.6 feet; callipers for other applications will similarly be marked to fit whatever that application takes an OBJ unit to equal).

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Posted: 23 August 2012 06:58 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 4 ]
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DS does not have physical correct measurements , it is just for intern use the 1unit=1cm but not not actual .real data
someone ask how tall she was so for real she was tall as I said.
You need to export object at 1 unit= 1 m what is used in all major programs with true and physical data to see for yourself , the prop used for that for years was not based on the physical data , beside you have Carrara then you can check out or if you have maybe Zbrush .  and I am really not talk about scaling or looking on monitors , I talk about numbers , when I create patrons for clothing I need to give the correct height also , what is not 5.2 for Stephanie but over 23 ’ , I did checked also in other programs that used correct data and build a wall that was exactly 8 feet tall , guess what genesis base was just as tall , and I exporting the obj data correctly other way my clothing would never fit back in DS .

DWG - 23 August 2012 04:50 AM
Mec4D - 23 August 2012 01:51 AM

the height-scale you used is imagined scale and not accurate .
Daz Studio measurements are not real world measurements

Studio uses an internal scaling ratio of 1 unit = 1cm, that’s internally consistent and therefore directly translatable to real world heights. I’m not sure what height prop Adam is using, but I’m willing to bet he’s checked it against Studio primitives of fixed sizes.

Any virtual scale is by necessity virtual only and based on an assumed scaling ratio - just imagine the same model shown on a 22” monitor and then on a 60”, same virtual scale, but significant difference in real world size - for Studio that scaling ratio is 1 unit = 1 cm and if a Studio figure is 155 units tall, then she is 5’ 2” (155 cm) in comparison to any other model or item in Studio and does not need to be scaled in either direction.

It’s entirely possible that the models import as a different size in a different 3D tool, but what matters is the consistent scaling ratio internal to Studio.

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Posted: 23 August 2012 07:01 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 5 ]
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Mec4D - 23 August 2012 06:48 AM

Richard that is not NONSENSE
1 unit = 1 cm so Stephanie is 712 cm what is 7.12 m = 23.35 feet
I am doing lately a lot of clothing for Genesis with real world measurements
10.000% in DS is 1% in real world and the human figures does not have regular human height in DS , no matter what you export or import, I am not an idiot I know my tools as I work with it daily .
Stephanie exported at the right conversion 1 unit= 1m for the real world measurement program is 7.12 m = 23.35 feet

and I did not talk about or mention Poser as it have another not physical correct measurements

think only about when you export object from DS at a 1unit = 1m how much % you will see ? 1%
and if you import 1 unit=1 m how much you will see 100%? no 10.000 % so make your mat

and that is accurate as I import in and out object made with physical correct measurements and genesis base is over 8 m height
and that is a fact. 

Richard Haseltine - 23 August 2012 04:45 AM
Mec4D - 23 August 2012 01:51 AM

according to the real world measurement in 3D
Stephanie 5 is 7.12 m = 23.35’ feet according to genesis base that is 8.5 m = 26.41 ’ feet

and the way DS scale own human models she is for real 712 m = 2335.96’ feet
according to genesis base that is 805m = 2641.08’feet in DAZ STUDIO

if you want Stephanie to be 1.60 m =  5.2 ’ feet you need to scale her down in DS to 40.79 %
then you have the real height of 5.2’ feet

the height-scale you used is imagined scale and not accurate .
Daz Studio measurements are not real world measurements as the scales of all models are 59.12 % to big smile

adamr001 - 22 August 2012 11:31 AM

against the heightscale I’ve used for years…

Nonsense. DAZ Studio units are 1cm, as long as you use the correct preset when importing an OBJ they will match the real-world units in other modelling applications. Remember that OBJ has no scale, and that Poser calliper models are made to various “Poser” scale (traditional 1 PNU = eight feet, which is what DAZ uses, dr Geep 1PNU = 100”, and official scale of 1PNU = 8.6 feet; callipers for other applications will similarly be marked to fit whatever that application takes an OBJ unit to equal).

No, that is not correct - different application use different default units, which is why the DS OBJ exporter has presets (and why many applications have import options allowing the user to specify the value of 1 OBJ unit). DS uses 1 cm as its unit, if you export an OBJ at 100% it will be the right height in an application that also uses 1cm as its unit, and vastly oversized in one that uses 1m as its unit. It’s simply a matter of making the conversion to your application’s scale - there is no absolute reference scale by which you can say a figure is “really” so high. If you are getting an oversized figure you are using an inappropriate export option.

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Posted: 23 August 2012 07:29 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 6 ]
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Yes but it does will not make Stephanie 5.1 but 23 feet and that is my point ..
the human figure scale in DS does not response to any actual physical data outside DS
I am exporting my obj correctly and the high is exactly what I said before as all my clothing imported back does fit the figures exactly and they are not the high you may thinking .  I if you use a 3D printer you need the correct data but well you don;t use so you don’t
Designers use correct data to match the 3D design with real world , but you are not design so stop telling someone that speak nonsense if you don’t know what is talked about as I shared real data and not over-sized problems in Poser or other stuff you deal with daily in the forum .  To be correct is my job for the last 15 years , I am living from that, so I am thinking you miss total my point on that ..as you know DS does not have official any actual physical world proportions , and the one program from DAZ that do that is only Carrara
so don;t tell me I am wrong

Richard Haseltine - 23 August 2012 07:01 AM
Mec4D - 23 August 2012 06:48 AM

Richard that is not NONSENSE
1 unit = 1 cm so Stephanie is 712 cm what is 7.12 m = 23.35 feet
I am doing lately a lot of clothing for Genesis with real world measurements
10.000% in DS is 1% in real world and the human figures does not have regular human height in DS , no matter what you export or import, I am not an idiot I know my tools as I work with it daily .
Stephanie exported at the right conversion 1 unit= 1m for the real world measurement program is 7.12 m = 23.35 feet

and I did not talk about or mention Poser as it have another not physical correct measurements

think only about when you export object from DS at a 1unit = 1m how much % you will see ? 1%
and if you import 1 unit=1 m how much you will see 100%? no 10.000 % so make your mat

and that is accurate as I import in and out object made with physical correct measurements and genesis base is over 8 m height
and that is a fact. 

Richard Haseltine - 23 August 2012 04:45 AM
Mec4D - 23 August 2012 01:51 AM

according to the real world measurement in 3D
Stephanie 5 is 7.12 m = 23.35’ feet according to genesis base that is 8.5 m = 26.41 ’ feet

and the way DS scale own human models she is for real 712 m = 2335.96’ feet
according to genesis base that is 805m = 2641.08’feet in DAZ STUDIO

if you want Stephanie to be 1.60 m =  5.2 ’ feet you need to scale her down in DS to 40.79 %
then you have the real height of 5.2’ feet

the height-scale you used is imagined scale and not accurate .
Daz Studio measurements are not real world measurements as the scales of all models are 59.12 % to big smile

adamr001 - 22 August 2012 11:31 AM

against the heightscale I’ve used for years…

Nonsense. DAZ Studio units are 1cm, as long as you use the correct preset when importing an OBJ they will match the real-world units in other modelling applications. Remember that OBJ has no scale, and that Poser calliper models are made to various “Poser” scale (traditional 1 PNU = eight feet, which is what DAZ uses, dr Geep 1PNU = 100”, and official scale of 1PNU = 8.6 feet; callipers for other applications will similarly be marked to fit whatever that application takes an OBJ unit to equal).

No, that is not correct - different application use different default units, which is why the DS OBJ exporter has presets (and why many applications have import options allowing the user to specify the value of 1 OBJ unit). DS uses 1 cm as its unit, if you export an OBJ at 100% it will be the right height in an application that also uses 1cm as its unit, and vastly oversized in one that uses 1m as its unit. It’s simply a matter of making the conversion to your application’s scale - there is no absolute reference scale by which you can say a figure is “really” so high. If you are getting an oversized figure you are using an inappropriate export option.

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Posted: 23 August 2012 07:37 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 7 ]
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Split from S5 thread so as not to derail that.

If you use the exported OBJ as a mannequin around which to model the clothes, then import the clothes using the preset you used to export the mannequin they will of course fit - you are performing equal and opposite scaling operations each time. That doesn’t mean you are using the right scale, which you manifestly aren’t since your measurement tools make the figures too tall.

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Posted: 23 August 2012 08:18 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 8 ]
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That is good idea Richard as it was not the right place and it feel like spoiling the other thread
according to the DAZ STUDIO data , Stephanie IN DS is 4’9 = 1.50 m , but that is only in DS
V5 is 5’6 = 1.71 when you look on the relation between genesis figures and other objects in DS .
But as soon any object move to another application with real data they do not match anymore , I mean the scales are correct just the real world measurements not.

and I was talking about professional software , the problem was not only with the height but also with physical correct light that does not work the way it should if the data was correct and object scaled to what they should be .
Let see for example Luxrender , the DS objects are rendered as a giant towers , it take to render forever , the same with 3D light
AO take forever and not always accurate .
I found my way to export import between the programs I use for design so there are not mistakes between the import export , and what I said before was actual data how tall she would be if printed out with physical 3d printer , where the data is transformed into a real world .
I did not expect us here to argue about , as it was not nonsense but we are on total different pages ,so I hope it make it now clear .

I am right with my stuff and you with yours but booth have nothing to do with each other .
That why you should not jump on me calling it ::nonsense::

I am working right now on project with true light data for 3Delight to use with DS that why the actual data is important to make it works correctly , DS figures can’t be adjust to the light, but the light need to be adjust to the figures to render them perfect as expected , if people use some HDR maps straight from someone else they will never works the way they was created .
As mostly of them are made for 1m units and not 1 cm what would make them not usable at all .
and because I am working on it for other major programs beside DS the data is collected  

Richard Haseltine - 23 August 2012 07:37 AM

Split from S5 thread so as not to derail that.

If you use the exported OBJ as a mannequin around which to model the clothes, then import the clothes using the preset you used to export the mannequin they will of course fit - you are performing equal and opposite scaling operations each time. That doesn’t mean you are using the right scale, which you manifestly aren’t since your measurement tools make the figures too tall.

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Posted: 23 August 2012 12:34 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 9 ]
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And if you choose the correct preset on export the figure will be the stated height in the professional application. I’m not clear on the alternative renderers what you are doing, but if you are using an exported OBJ then again you need to choose the correct preset to get the right scale. Different applications use different values for an OBJ unit, and so if exporting a model for use in another application you must use a scale factor to make sure that its coordinates are in the right place on import. If you are saying that information being passed to the DS version of 3delight internally, or via RIB, or to LuxRender via Reality is mis-scaled then that would be a bug - though I’m pretty sure that Paolo has Reality set to supply correctly scaled geometry.

Here, for example, is the base genesis exported from DS with the modo preset, imported into modo, and measured with the built-in Ruler tool:

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Posted: 23 August 2012 01:07 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 10 ]
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yes now use the same light maps in both programs and expect the same results , it will not works as there is not option to scale down
as it works only visual on your monitor , but I am not going to explain what I mean as you do not read what I said . I do this work for 15 years not need for explain how to scale objects Richard this is not about that .It is about something that is beyond this forum and I should better shut up in the first place.  But thanks anyway for your time but this is something you can’t fix just by exporting stuff out with the right preset , it is about to import something that can’t use the preset . I would be not so sure if Paolo scaled the geometries by export as it would be needed to scale down everything what is include in the scene including cameras .  I will have some example soon so you can see what I am talking about

Richard Haseltine - 23 August 2012 12:34 PM

And if you choose the correct preset on export the figure will be the stated height in the professional application. I’m not clear on the alternative renderers what you are doing, but if you are using an exported OBJ then again you need to choose the correct preset to get the right scale. Different applications use different values for an OBJ unit, and so if exporting a model for use in another application you must use a scale factor to make sure that its coordinates are in the right place on import. If you are saying that information being passed to the DS version of 3delight internally, or via RIB, or to LuxRender via Reality is mis-scaled then that would be a bug - though I’m pretty sure that Paolo has Reality set to supply correctly scaled geometry.

Here, for example, is the base genesis exported from DS with the modo preset, imported into modo, and measured with the built-in Ruler tool:

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Posted: 23 August 2012 01:29 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 11 ]
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It doesn’t matter what programme you use, whether it be Google Sketchup, Studio, or CATIA (to pick a high-end 3D app that absolutely depends on being able to translate into real world coordinates), if they want to let people create objects at a consistent scale, then each of them makes an assumption about how real world coordinates relate to in-programme coordinates, and the relationship between the two is a fixed scaling ratio.

DAZ uses 1 unit = 1cm, Poser is mostly standardised on one PU = 8 feet , other programmes will have their own ratios.

If you copy a 5’2” figure from DAZ into another application, and she appears as 23’, then your translation process did not adequately account for the different scaling ratios between the two. You may have a translation process that ‘works’ in terms of getting the model into the new programme, but it is one that breaks scaling. The problem isn’t the size of the figure in either application, it is buried somewhere in the process used to translate the two.

(And just to be clear, I’ve done graphics at the professional level in a very specialized arena).

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Posted: 23 August 2012 01:45 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 12 ]
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Mec4D - 23 August 2012 01:07 PM

I would be not so sure if Paolo scaled the geometries by export as it would be needed to scale down everything what is include in the scene including cameras .

Reality scales from Studio’s 1SU = 1cm to Lux’s 1LU = 1m.  You can easily confirm this in the .lxs scene file, for example, by looking at the camera’s coordinates.  If Reality was not scaling the geometry, the specified camera settings would be off by a factor of 100.  Another way to check is put a RealityFog object in the scene and then examine the generated Transform coordinates in the .lxm file, which again show scaling has occured.

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Posted: 23 August 2012 01:53 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 13 ]
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yes yes that is all correct but not regarding to light ,you can scale up or down everything but accurate light and physical correct fall off will not works , I just try to do something good , I know everything about scales and how to do it I am in this for 15 years so not need help on that   that have nothing to do with that . Soon I will explain , it may not be today or tomorrow but I will so you can better understand what I was talking about ,I wish I do that today but I am under agreement and can’t explain more to you but for sure it is not export import issue you think as I don;t have any .

DWG - 23 August 2012 01:29 PM

It doesn’t matter what programme you use, whether it be Google Sketchup, Studio, or CATIA (to pick a high-end 3D app that absolutely depends on being able to translate into real world coordinates), if they want to let people create objects at a consistent scale, then each of them makes an assumption about how real world coordinates relate to in-programme coordinates, and the relationship between the two is a fixed scaling ratio.

DAZ uses 1 unit = 1cm, Poser is mostly standardised on one PU = 8 feet , other programmes will have their own ratios.

If you copy a 5’2” figure from DAZ into another application, and she appears as 23’, then your translation process did not adequately account for the different scaling ratios between the two. You may have a translation process that ‘works’ in terms of getting the model into the new programme, but it is one that breaks scaling. The problem isn’t the size of the figure in either application, it is buried somewhere in the process used to translate the two.

(And just to be clear, I’ve done graphics at the professional level in a very specialized arena).

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Posted: 23 August 2012 01:55 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 14 ]
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that is a wonderful news to me , thanks for making a statement and I trust you on that . I did not collected the data from reality to luxrender yet so I was not sure .

cwichura - 23 August 2012 01:45 PM
Mec4D - 23 August 2012 01:07 PM

I would be not so sure if Paolo scaled the geometries by export as it would be needed to scale down everything what is include in the scene including cameras .

Reality scales from Studio’s 1SU = 1cm to Lux’s 1LU = 1m.  You can easily confirm this in the .lxs scene file, for example, by looking at the camera’s coordinates.  If Reality was not scaling the geometry, the specified camera settings would be off by a factor of 100.  Another way to check is put a RealityFog object in the scene and then examine the generated Transform coordinates in the .lxm file, which again show scaling has occured.

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Posted: 23 August 2012 10:23 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 15 ]
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While we are talking about scale can I ask if we can get someone at DAZ to fix the Blender scale preset.  Blender uses 1 Blender Unit = 1 Meter, so the correct scale would be 1% on export and 10,000% on import, and don’t swap the the y and z axis.

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