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Posted: 05 October 2012 11:40 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 376 ]
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Kyoto Kid - 04 October 2012 11:24 PM

I don’t think I have broken even this year with the cost of my Annual PC membership, especially since the changes in May.  The galleries, (which were one source for many to acquire content) are gone.  Vouchers which were good on all but 1.99$ items have been replaced with “all or nothing” coupons limited only to purchases of Daz Originals (most new releases of which are useless if one doesn’t work with Genesis). This is just one part of why many of us (some long time members like sunfirexed above) feel a bit left out by the change in direction and are considering letting our PC memberships expire.

Yes, these changes to the vouchers and the PC club have me greatly unhappy too.  I am not planning to be part of the PC club any longer either.  More than that - the bugs in the store and website that have now continued for over 6 months with little improvement.  I will leave the stuff in my wishlist there and may or may not pick it up on some future sale, but that’s about it.  The odd items or backdrop that is not DS only I may also pick up, but not in any hurry any longer.  As you know though, ANY thread with anything negative about Daz, be it factual or justified, will be jumped on and derailed into Genesis/Poser/DS app war - usually by the very users and Daz fans who claim they are sick of seeing it.

Personally I couldn’t care less if Genesis was made to work in Studio1.7 (the first version I DL’d and still have backed up) Poser4 or even SketchUp.  I have an extensive investment in Gen4 versions of Vicky, Michael, and Steph as well as David3, Aiko3, the original Sadie, Sam, Mavka and a few standalone characters like Little One and Telka. This represents a fairly sizable outlay (on very limited budget) over the last four and a half years since I became involved in this.  I’m not in the position to start from “square one” all over again with Genesis.

I originally thought Genesis was a neet idea and was going to wait to see what happened with it and other program compatibility - however - after all the bitterness and all the bullying usually begun by self appointed Daz supporters jumping on every thread with any critique as anti-daz and anti-genesis and berating and belittling all coments and factual statements have left such a bad taste in my mouth I want nothing to do with it.  At this point, I could care less about the supposed “big surprise for Poser fans of Genesis” I will never support it or use it.  I don’t need to either, as I have so much in my runtimes and yet uninstalled I can keep busy from now until the apocalypse (it’s what…two months away?).

I merely pointed out that Others had reported instability in DS3 as a ditrect response to a statement made telling you it was just you and your computer and demanding to know why other users weren’t experiencing it, and already numerous posts have jumped on me for “bringing up old battlescars” and “having a chip on my shoulder”.  Funny thing is, they are proving my point decisively.  If it’s any concelation Kyoto, I have worked with many 3D apps, many far more intense and demanding than DS, and I tried to add DS3A to my menagerie.  I run a mixed lot of machines, both 32 and 64 bit, and I have experienced all of the problems you described across the 32 bit machines (not nescessarily all on the same machine) - but have definately found the more complex a scene, the higher the odds DS3A will crash from that memory leak.  I have even tracked DS3A’s memory and resource usage directly.  I can not make scenes half as complex as what it takes to bring Poser Pro and Poser 2010 to it’s knees on those same machines - which led me to stop trying to learn DS at all, as it just is not worth the time investment.  Add to that several of the plugins did not perform as advertised, and that put the nail in it for me.  Would have tried DS 4, but it won’t even install on many of my 32 bit machines (machines that have no trouble running multiple instances of Lightwave 11, and run Vue 10 and Zbrush mind you), and it has no network render capability, no hosting plugins for integration with most of my other apps - so again, not worth the trouble.  As it is it cannot be a feasible part of my production environment because it is not compatible or stable enough and lacks core nescessary features - I tried pointing this out several times in the old forums and even requesting these features, and every time was immediately attacked for “daz-bashing” and had threads locked and deleted.  So, yeah, I understand where you are coming from.

I do wish you luck with your computers, I know we have talked a few times about supporting older, legacy machines.

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Posted: 05 October 2012 11:59 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 377 ]
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Kludge - 04 October 2012 06:58 PM

Poser has the assorted Mikis, GND, BND and Anastasia who don’t map all that well, if at all, to Studio.  Do you hear any DAZ people complaining?  Yet DAZ introduces ONE model that doesn’t map well to Poser and elements of the Poser community get all upset because there’s a toy they can’t play with nice and easily.

Daz users aren’t complaining about Miki, etc. because SM has never been a supplier of DS content. That’s the thing a lot of DS users can’t seem to grasp. If SM (and other Poser owners) had always been a place to find DS content, and then things drastically changed you all might be able to understand our frustration. I understand it’s their store and they can release what they want for whatever figure/platform they choose. When it comes to the PC though, releases should be either equal number of items for each program’s users, or make everything compatible with both programs like it was before.

Kludge - 05 October 2012 03:34 AM

No argument with the last sentence.  But their problem isn’t with Vickie, it’s with Genesis.  Since Genesis doesn’t yet work well with other software, they want to quit.  That is being freakishly childish.

 

Do you mean quitting the hobby or quitting DAZ?

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Posted: 05 October 2012 12:03 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 378 ]
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larsmidnatt - 04 October 2012 08:28 PM
tsarist - 04 October 2012 08:16 PM

People aren’t being freakishly childish. They are being incredibly logical. Vicky isn’t just another figure.  She is THE figure.

I disagree with you here. You aren’t being childish. You have level-headed in all the post I’ve read of yours. However some others do act childish and illogical.

I say if Vicky floats your boat enjoy, but don’t begrudge those who use Genesis. I know you don’t give others a hard time, but you have to acknowledge there are some in this forum who just wait for the opportunity to complain that item X is Ds4 or genesis. Why constantly complain about tools others are using?

I do understand that PC members especially like to see continued support in their preferred packages, but Daz hasn’t done anything to prevent people from using older models in whatever software they have been using up until now. including THE model V4.

I would begrudge Daz if they stopped supporting Genesis in less than 2 years, Hopefully longer really. But V4 had 6 years of love, and still is getting attention. So some people are being childish and illogical. (had to say it twice)

EDIT: changed “others” to “some others” for clarity

 

I agree with this, and many things you have pointed out I have been thinking exactly the same thing.

Personally I love genesis, but there is no way I will criticize any products for not supporting genesis. Likewise I will never criticize any ones work by the fact that they’re using a non-genesis character. Six years of love for V4 and generation 4 as pointed out, that is phenomenal! and these figures have a true legacy and is not ignored.

But just because a new generation of figures have came along doesn’t mean that the artists who use them and the newer products should constantly be bombarded with negative criticism because it’s not gen 4 or below. It really does get to me, because I too am also a lover of gen 4, but I upgraded and did so willingly and I definitely will not say I regret it at all. There is nothing worse than posting a render/creation that you’ve put so much work into and then seeing your feedback being broken up with a big spill on the cons of genesis, and how gen 4 is so much better.

My view is that we are all artists who use different tools. And we shouldn’t be scrutinized by the tools we so choose to use.

And almost all the negativity towards gen 5 tends to fall on the basis that gen 5 is not supported in Poser or below Daz 4. While I totally agree it would be absolutely fantastic to see Poser support Gen 5, I can certainly see why Genesis is not supported below Daz 4. As models utilize new features, the requirements on the software changes, and no software company continues to upgrade older software that has been replaced with newer versions of the same software, that would be ridiculously costly, inappropriate and impractical, despite the personal opinions of customers who haven’t upgraded for whatever reason.

FYI - For a very long time I remained in daz 2 well into daz 4, and likewise stuck to gen 3 well into gen 4. I never criticized gen 4.

Please no one get offended by this, I certainly don’t intend to offend. This is just my opinion, on what I have observed.

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Posted: 05 October 2012 12:11 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 379 ]
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Faerydae - 05 October 2012 11:59 AM

I understand it’s their store and they can release what they want for whatever figure/platform they choose. When it comes to the PC though, releases should be either equal number of items for each program’s users,


The PC & DO new releases have gone primarily Genesis, so it makes perfect sense for non-Genesis users to want out of the PC.
(And it is possible to get a pro-rata refund. Although, so far, it’s been store credit).

As far as them going equal on content, there’s no historical precedent. Whenever there’s a new figure, the store changes over rapidly.

Genesis users are voracious, and Daz ain’t in this for their health. Poser/DS3 users don’t just want props. Can’t blame anyone, there.

Edit: added “new releases”, to clarify, as well as “DO” and “primarily” for accuracy.

or make everything compatible with both programs like it was before.


They were, until SM dropped out of the effort.

Now, with SR3, it’s hypothetically possible for Daz to make a plugin. There’s a hint that might happen.

Faerydae - 05 October 2012 11:59 AM
Kludge - 05 October 2012 03:34 AM

No argument with the last sentence.  But their problem isn’t with Vickie, it’s with Genesis.  Since Genesis doesn’t yet work well with other software, they want to quit.  That is being freakishly childish.

 

Do you mean quitting the hobby or quitting DAZ?


Quitting PC, quitting Daz, and CD2010 is quitting 3D for some reason.

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Posted: 05 October 2012 12:20 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 380 ]
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Spyro - 05 October 2012 12:03 PM

There is nothing worse than posting a render/creation that you’ve put so much work into and then seeing your feedback being broken up with a big spill on the cons of genesis, and how gen 4 is so much better.

Agreed. Same goes for Poser/DS. I had a single Poser render posted on my DA account when I was testing the software and people jumped on the fact it was a poser render and said “its the best render you’ve ever done” “Poser is so much better than….”

ANd I’m like, yuck, this render isn’t that great. And why aren’t we talking about how smexy she is? I don’t want ta hear anything bout no firefly engine!

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Posted: 05 October 2012 12:22 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 381 ]
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Let me just clarify something here. The PC Anniversary sale has not ‘gone genesis’. There wasn’t one item for genesis in the recent list for PC choice. Half the items relating to figures are Gen 4 in the current discounts. Almost all the hair items on sale at 70% off are NOT genesis.

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Posted: 05 October 2012 12:26 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 382 ]
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larsmidnatt - 05 October 2012 12:20 PM
Spyro - 05 October 2012 12:03 PM

There is nothing worse than posting a render/creation that you’ve put so much work into and then seeing your feedback being broken up with a big spill on the cons of genesis, and how gen 4 is so much better.

Agreed. Same goes for Poser/DS. I had a single Poser render posted on my DA account when I was testing the software and people jumped on the fact it was a poser render and said “its the best render you’ve ever done” “Poser is so much better than….”

ANd I’m like, yuck, this render isn’t that great. And why aren’t we talking about how smexy she is? I don’t want ta hear anything bout no firefly engine!

I know its so awful when you hear that. It’s like, cant you just accept that we are all different, and like or dislike our work NOT based on a figure we used and NOT based on the software. 3ds Max/Maya community has the same issues. They despise anything made in daz or poser. They know we put heaps of work into it, but they base their criticism purely on the software/figures. They also ignore the fact that they too have a large market for models, textures and rigged figures themselves!

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Posted: 05 October 2012 12:53 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 383 ]
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Spyro - 05 October 2012 12:22 PM

Let me just clarify something here. The PC Anniversary sale has not ‘gone genesis’. There wasn’t one item for genesis in the recent list for PC choice. Half the items relating to figures are Gen 4 in the current discounts. Almost all the hair items on sale at 70% off are NOT genesis.

 
True. I did oversimplify that bit out, heh. (I’ve edited my post, above, to clarify).

They seem to have gone to some effort to de-emphasize Genesis in the sales, this month. (It would automatically have a good deal of pre-Genesis, but they went the extra mile). My hats off to Daz for that. (I’m not happy that they chopped out most of the deals they’d routinely had in October, but that’s a different subject).


I sympathize with the non-Genesis PC members, because the new PC releases have been overwhelmingly Genesis, lately. The DO new releases have, unsurprisingly, had fewer and fewer Gen4, as well.


Myself, I’d rather not hassle with pre-Genesis, anymore, except to import shapes, autofit/convert, or when I’m in PP2012.
(And when I’m in PP2012, I go for the weightmapped stuff, as much as their drizzle of clothes & morphs allow. There’s also V4 WM, with its clothing script, but M4 WM ain’t here yet).

I sidegraded to 2012 when it seemed certain that Genesis would be 100% in there. If the plugin happens, I’ll use it more.
But I’m more comfortable with Studio.

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Posted: 05 October 2012 01:33 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 384 ]
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T Jaiman - 05 October 2012 12:53 PM
Spyro - 05 October 2012 12:22 PM

Let me just clarify something here. The PC Anniversary sale has not ‘gone genesis’. There wasn’t one item for genesis in the recent list for PC choice. Half the items relating to figures are Gen 4 in the current discounts. Almost all the hair items on sale at 70% off are NOT genesis.

 
True. I did oversimplify that bit out, heh. (I’ve edited my post, above, to clarify).

They seem to have gone to some effort to de-emphasize Genesis in the sales, this month. (It would automatically have a good deal of pre-Genesis, but they went the extra mile). My hats off to Daz for that. (I’m not happy that they chopped out most of the deals they’d routinely had in October, but that’s a different subject).


I sympathize with the non-Genesis PC members, because the new PC releases have been overwhelmingly Genesis, lately. The DO new releases have, unsurprisingly, had fewer and fewer Gen4, as well.


Myself, I’d rather not hassle with pre-Genesis, anymore, except to import shapes, autofit/convert, or when I’m in PP2012.
(And when I’m in PP2012, I go for the weightmapped stuff, as much as their drizzle of clothes & morphs allow. There’s also V4 WM, with its clothing script, but I haven’t noticed M4 WM being ready yet).

There are a few good tuts around for clothing transfers… That I agree can be a bit of a bummer, I’m just happy they improved the transfer utility. There are heaps of GREAT gen 4 stuff I’d love to transfer. And GenX is a god send!

I quite like the items that have both V4/M4 and Genesis supported. I still a huge user of the V4 and M4 textures! I don’t think I’ve actually got into the V5/M5 UV set yet. For that reason, I often still buy Gen4 stuff! cheese

 

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Posted: 05 October 2012 01:34 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 385 ]
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Spyro - 05 October 2012 12:26 PM

3ds Max/Maya community has the same issues. They despise anything made in daz or poser.


Ya know I was kinda sorta one of those guys. I used poser and bryce for a bit before I learned 3DS Max. After I learned max and got my degree I refused to even look at Poser! I had some legitimate reasons at the time but as years progressed my needs changed and my eyes opened as well. I saw tutorials on how many artist were using Daz models as a base for their digital paintings and such. After that I did some more research and decided that it made at on more sense to use Daz’s models than reinvent the wheel. And that’s where I am now.

Creating models and texturing is a great skill set, however it is all about the end result. A lot of modellers what people to admire how the polygons are laid out and how clean things are. Most people don’t admire flat shaded renders! Nor should they have to.

But ya know dressing and posing barbie dolls and showing that off as your own work isn’t art man. You’re just a poser!

only Posers use poser!

 

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Posted: 05 October 2012 01:46 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 386 ]
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To clarify things with you… I AM a 3ds Max user/modeler LOL I use it ALL THE TIME. Props, Architecture now clothing, the works. I too studied Diploma in 3ds max, I only wish it had included Maya as well. My point is you cant judge a render based on the fact that you also used something bought/pre-made. 3DS max and Maya have the exact same concept of market. I’ve been among them.

I often NEVER use products that I haven’t modified in some way. Right down to the mesh and textures. Regardless of that fact, that very comment discredits the amount of work people do for their renders. I would also point out that in the professional 3D world, the work on projects is very much broken up into departments. “the Barbie doll posers and animators” are a professional department all the same with character modeling, modeling, rigging, environments, lighting etc.

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Posted: 05 October 2012 02:01 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 387 ]
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Also, I do agree with you with ‘part’ of that statement. just posing a character isn’t so much your own art…..... But, when you set the cameras, lighting, assemble and position other objects any additional content for the figure, dial up a unique character, animate it (If an animation) That’s already a large bulk of the industry departments regardless of how well the final result is. It’s still their art and shouldn’t be discredited.

Yeah, we who know how to model have more satisfaction knowing that we created most if not all of everything in that render or animation, but to use that knowledge in saying another’s work is not their art and that they’re just a dolly poser, is like telling anyone who sketches with a reference image that they are not an artist because they didn’t sketch the artwork using a live model or create it with no reference at all.

Just my opinion on that subject smile

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Posted: 05 October 2012 05:48 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 388 ]
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T Jaiman - 05 October 2012 12:11 PM

As far as them going equal on content, there’s no historical precedent. Whenever there’s a new figure, the store changes over rapidly.

Yes, but this figure/platform is not Poser compatible like previous figures were.

or make everything compatible with both programs like it was before.

T Jaiman - 05 October 2012 12:11 PM

They were, until SM dropped out of the effort.

Now, with SR3, it’s hypothetically possible for Daz to make a plugin. There’s a hint that might happen.

That’s a debate I’ll leave alone lol. Both sides have their stories…I wasn’t present during the meetings between the 2 companies. All I know is Daz created Genesis (knowing fully that it was not Poser compatible), not SM.

As for the hint… hints suck. Not everyone is going to wait another several months for something to change. Not to mention continuing a membership with no clue when/if things will either level out for everyone, or if Poser users really will be in heaven. If something big for us really is in the works, let us know, and maybe some of us on the fence will stick it out.

Faerydae - 05 October 2012 11:59 AM
Kludge - 05 October 2012 03:34 AM

No argument with the last sentence.  But their problem isn’t with Vickie, it’s with Genesis.  Since Genesis doesn’t yet work well with other software, they want to quit.  That is being freakishly childish.

 

T Jaiman - 05 October 2012 12:11 PM

Do you mean quitting the hobby or quitting DAZ?


Quitting PC, quitting Daz, and CD2010 is quitting 3D for some reason.

Perfectly reasonable for anyone to quit the PC if it’s no longer worth the membership fees to them, and perfectly reasonable to me to quit Daz if you can no longer find anything to buy. Quitting 3D because of Genesis…..well, I’m sure that’s reasonable to some. While I have my disappointment with the whole thing, it’s not that dire for me to quit my hobby, but to each their own.

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Posted: 05 October 2012 06:35 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 389 ]
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Faerydae - 05 October 2012 05:48 PM
Faerydae - 05 October 2012 11:59 AM
Kludge - 05 October 2012 03:34 AM

No argument with the last sentence.  But their problem isn’t with Vickie, it’s with Genesis.  Since Genesis doesn’t yet work well with other software, they want to quit.  That is being freakishly childish.

 

T Jaiman - 05 October 2012 12:11 PM

Do you mean quitting the hobby or quitting DAZ?


Quitting PC, quitting Daz, and CD2010 is quitting 3D for some reason.

Perfectly reasonable for anyone to quit the PC if it’s no longer worth the membership fees to them, and perfectly reasonable to me to quit Daz if you can no longer find anything to buy. Quitting 3D because of Genesis…..well, I’m sure that’s reasonable to some. While I have my disappointment with the whole thing, it’s not that dire for me to quit my hobby, but to each their own.

CD2010 was quitting for many reasons, the issues he mentioned last seemed to be about the changes to the forum and store

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Posted: 05 October 2012 09:22 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 390 ]
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I see. Well, everyone has their own reasons for staying or leaving. As I said, to each their own smile Maybe he’ll come back at some point.

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