Pose Opinions Request

DWGDWG Posts: 772
edited December 1969 in Art Studio

I've been working with a posing nightmare for the last week, 4 figures all interacting with each other, and in a tight physical environment. I think I've finally gotten the poses into something near to a final setup, but there's something niggling at me, and I'd appreciate a few other opinions:

Looking at the three adult figures alone and forgetting the child for the moment, does it look like the wheelchair is being lifted up the stairs, or down the stairs?

I was aiming for up, but I think it might be more convincing as down, in which case I can easily reverse the child's facing.

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Comments

  • Dave SavageDave Savage Posts: 1,942
    edited August 2012

    Raising the nearest person's right foot to the step above would certainly make it look more like they are going up the stairs. :)

    But the least convincing part I find is the position of the person furthest away. You simply wouldn't be crouching down and have your arms up like that. The weight of a person and a wheelchair would mean your arms had to be really feeling the strain and as such much straighter and hanging down. So you'd have you legs a lot straighter and be bent over at the waist with your shoulders really far forwards.

    Hope this helps a bit. :)


    Edited to add: Thinking about it, when people carry wheelchairs like this up stairs, they usually rest the back wheels against the stairs too so they can almost 'walk' the large wheels up the stairs. So it may help to have the furthest away person holding the handles of the chair the nearest person just lifting a bit for each step... hope this makes sense.

    Post edited by Dave Savage on
  • ChoholeChohole Posts: 19,381
    edited August 2012

    Raising the nearest person's right foot to the step above would certainly make it look more like they are going up the stairs. :)

    But the least convincing part I find is the position of the person furthest away. You simply wouldn't be crouching down and have your arms up like that. The weight of a person and a wheelchair would mean your arms had to be really feeling the strain and as such much straighter and hanging down. So you'd have you legs a lot straighter and be bent over at the waist with your shoulders really far forwards.

    Hope this helps a bit. :)


    Edited to add: Thinking about it, when people carry wheelchairs like this up stairs, they usually rest the back wheels against the stairs too so they can almost 'walk' the large wheels up the stairs. So it may help to have the furthest away person holding the handles of the chair the nearest person just lifting a bit for each step... hope this makes sense.



    I totally agree with Dave on those comments about the position of the figures. The hande side of the chair should be highest, whether going up or down a flight of stairs. When they carried himself down the stairs in a wheenchair, last time he was rushed to hospital the strongest person had the handles and was at the top, the assistant was guiding the bottom as they went down. They reversed when getting the chair up the steps in the front garden (dual level front garden) and pulled him up the steps backward.

    Edited to add this link

    http://www.ehow.com/how_7434483_move-manual-wheelchair-upstairs.html

    Post edited by Chohole on
  • DWGDWG Posts: 772
    edited December 1969

    Raising the nearest person's right foot to the step above would certainly make it look more like they are going up the stairs. :)

    His left foot is already on the step above the right, I might change the aspect ratio away from pure portrait to get the feet in, but they actually seem to work with either direction of movement.

    But the least convincing part I find is the position of the person furthest away. You simply wouldn't be crouching down and have your arms up like that. The weight of a person and a wheelchair would mean your arms had to be really feeling the strain and as such much straighter and hanging down. So you'd have you legs a lot straighter and be bent over at the waist with your shoulders really far forwards.

    The problem with that idea is that the only place you can actually grasp the frame to lift the chair is at seat level, there's no practical and safe way to reach that lifting point other than crouched if the chair is facing out from the stairs. If I reverse the chair, which does make it easier, then I lose the facial view of the female character, unless I reverse the camera position to the top of the stairs, and the sky view, with the Underground symbol, is an essential part of the composition.

    Edited to add: Thinking about it, when people carry wheelchairs like this up stairs, they usually rest the back wheels against the stairs too so they can almost 'walk' the large wheels up the stairs. So it may help to have the furthest away person holding the handles of the chair the nearest person just lifting a bit for each step... hope this makes sense.

    I take all your points, and thank you for them, but it's an active user chair with a low back and no push handles - which is fairly typical for long term wheelies - and I'm trying to present the difficulty the environment creates for people. As for bumping down the stairs, that really depends on what the user can tolerate in the way of impacts, I almost certainly couldn't tolerate it. Ideally you'd probably lift this with back out from the stairs, or from the side, but the width of the staircase makes the side carry impractical and I've already explained my reasons for not reversing the chair pose.

  • DWGDWG Posts: 772
    edited December 1969

    chohole said:
    The hande side of the chair should be highest, whether going up or down a flight of stairs.

    Yes and tilted back, the principle is you should fall backwards into the stairs, rather than be tipped away from them. I suspect you're both more familiar with the high-backed style of wheelchair, but with an active user chair there is often no frame to grip above the actual seat level, which, combined with the need for a back-straight lift, is why the upper figure is in such a seemingly exaggerated squat. The overwhelming principle in this kind of situation is to check with the wheelchair user as to what they want done and how it should be done - a couple of friends have had their chairs damaged by over-enthusiastic helpers who wouldn't listen.

  • JaderailJaderail Posts: 0
    edited December 1969

    I understand your reason for doing this render. I'm 100% disabled and heading for the chair myself. At this time I'm still on a cane but my days are numbered and I know it. I have a major issue with the render, it's not what would really be happening in that situation. You have two grown men helping the woman and her child. I think in real life one man would carry the woman and the other would carry the chair in this situation. Sure it would not be what you wish to portray but I think it would be truer to life that way.

    Just my two cents. You did ask for them.

  • ChoholeChohole Posts: 19,381
    edited December 1969

    Yes I have to admit I am not certain if I have come across that sort of chair.

    I admit that my disalbed friends are not always in wheelchairs. They us them when they have to, but do normally walk with crutches or walking sticks whne thye can.

    Winnie is one who absolutely amazes me, she had Polio as a child, left her with her legs in calipers, and then she went down with MS as an adult. They wanted her to abort her baby, because they said she possibly wouldn't live to be there as she grew up, but she refused totally, and she did live to see the child grow up, and I am sure a lot of that was her postive attitude, she just wasn't going to give up.

    She loved to dance, and would stand on her partners feet, to do so (she was only tiny). When she was in the wheelchair, they take turns in dancing with her in the chair, spinning it from one to the other

    When her daughter was younger she would sit on her mum's lap while the guys danced the chair around, it was wonderful to see.

    I moved away and have lost touch, but I hope she is still going strong.

  • DWGDWG Posts: 772
    edited December 1969

    First picture is a screen-grabbed close-up of where the lifting point at the rear of the chair is to show he really does have to be that low.

    Second pic is part of the same series and gives a better view of the chair and how low the back is (to those who have it, yes the back will morph to full height and there are add on handles, but a) that would be atypical for most active user chairs and b) if you tried to lift by the handles you would likely just rip the back off)

    Jaderail: yes, some people might choose to carry the user and chair separately, I have a separate image planned around that scenario.

    Cho: I walk with crutches myself, though I'll use wheelchairs at places like airports, and I have a bunch of wheelchair using friends. There's a lot of variation in what works for people, which is why I made the note about always asking the disabled person.

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  • JaderailJaderail Posts: 0
    edited December 1969

    Keep up the work on enlightening people. As I said my days are numbered so it will be a personal issue for me one day also.

  • DWGDWG Posts: 772
    edited December 1969

    Okay, another version of the render, changed to a square aspect ratio to show the feet of the lower character.

    Anyone have any thoughts on the original question of whether they're going up or down?

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  • ChoholeChohole Posts: 19,381
    edited December 1969

    Down I think

  • JaderailJaderail Posts: 0
    edited August 2012

    Okay from a artist view toward the real this is what I get.... This one will always look like a down version. This is why, The man in the back would never be down like that or have his arms bent like that. He would be standing with a straight back and fully extending arms in the down position to carry all the weight of the lady and the chair that is on his arms. The man in front would be the one struggling to keep the weight from tipping to the front and causing an accident. That's from this view.

    Now if the man in back is trying to lift the bottom of the chair in a safe way to the top of the next step without damaging the chair I still think he would use the leverage of the wheels against the back of the step to ROLL the bottom up to the next level instead of a heavy dead lift as you are showing. That will mean a different pose for both men but I think it would look more realistic. I just can not buy into the "Lets Dead Weight Lift Her Up the Stairs." thing you are doing.

    If I had the chair I would do a quick example, but I do not. I do have a couple of Subway sets so that part is not a problem.

    Post edited by Jaderail on
  • FixmypcmikeFixmypcmike Posts: 11,630
    edited December 1969

    Yes, I've moved a lot of people in wheelchairs and you'd want the large wheels on the step -- less weight to support, more stable, and gives the person in the chair more feel of being grounded

  • JaderailJaderail Posts: 0
    edited December 1969

    Dog on it DWG!! I really want that prop. Please give me a link to it. I'll shut up, I promise.

  • DWGDWG Posts: 772
    edited December 1969

    Jaderail: It's Ob's Lightweight Wheelchair over at Rendo: http://www.renderosity.com/mod/bcs/obs-lightweight-wheelchair/27130 (a couple of minor criticisms are 1) that the cross-bars under the seat don't actually touch the seat if you adjust its height, and that can be obvious from lower angles, so I've stuck a primitive set to the frame colour in between the two and parented it to the seat, and 2) it inherits scaling if you fit it to a character, which can be a problem, so I don't use 'fit to' to link them to move together, I put them both inside a null and move the null instead).

    Everyone: I don't want you to think I'm ignoring the advice saying rest the wheels on the stairs, but that's just not practical with this design of chair. I've moved the chair down to stair level and screen-grabbed an image, with the chair two steps in front of M5 (1 step isn't practical with it tilted back) the grab-rail at the back is level with his toes, and that is the highest lifting point at the rear of the chair. I don't know about you lot, but my arms certainly aren't long enough to lift from that level ;)

    I'm going to go with Cho's feeling, which matches mine, and rotate the child to face down the stairs on the assumption they're going down not up.

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  • JaderailJaderail Posts: 0
    edited December 1969

    Very Nice Prop. Thank you for the link. I see the problem with posing now, your way might be the only way with this item. So I'll just say good work and keep it up.

  • ChoholeChohole Posts: 19,381
    edited December 1969

    Yes I see the problem as well, not an easy thing to get down the stairs. Would actually normally be a lot more crowded around that tube access, if it was a popular station, and there may be more help, but with just 2 people, not an easy task.

  • FixmypcmikeFixmypcmike Posts: 11,630
    edited December 1969

    I see, that wheelchair is not designed to be pushed at all, strange design.

  • DWGDWG Posts: 772
    edited December 1969

    I see, that wheelchair is not designed to be pushed at all, strange design.

    It's the standard lightweight, rigid frame 'active user' design for people who don't need assistance unless they run into an obstacle like the Tube (Tube inaccessibility being the reason for the image), a back is just extra weight that's going to get in the way, particularly if you're sitting in the driver's seat of a car trying to lift the wheel-less frame past you into the passenger seat, what back there is will normally fold flat for that.

    Cho: yes, there would normally be more people around the tube entrance, but 1) I haven't put them in yet, 2) I need to keep the viewing angles clear, and 3) there's not really room for more people to help, you might be able to get two at the front, one to each side, but all the weight is actually at the back.

  • ChoholeChohole Posts: 19,381
    edited August 2012

    Yes I can understand you on that. Normally Winnie, if she was having one of her needing a wheelchair episodes, would only use the car if her otherhalf was available to travel with her. She drove a standard Ford Estate, but converted to all hand controls. Always had her German shepherd in the back. He used the car as a Kennel overnight, because she had had the car stolen once.

    He was lovely, but wouldn't let anyone near Winnie or the car whne on duty. He was a failed RAF dog. Failed becude he refused to jump out an airplane with a parachute.

    Keith, our other friend with MS drives a standard mobility car Again he looks for a chaufeur when in wheel chair mode. My brother, well I am not sure if you saw the photo I posted a couple of times in the old forum of his mode of transport. He is a biker, now disabled but still a biker, or rather now a triker. Belongs to the Medway Renegades.

    Post edited by Chohole on
  • DWGDWG Posts: 772
    edited August 2012

    Didn't see it, but it's entirely possible I've been passed by him, I live in Medway. Yellow wheel-on design by any chance?

    Post edited by DWG on
  • ChoholeChohole Posts: 19,381
    edited December 1969

    His is very original THis is him parked outside the housing complex where he lives. "I think it counts as "sheltered housing" THis photo was taken by the peeps who run the complex, as they were so ammused by having a disabled person using this sort of transport. THe trike has been updtated a bit since this photo was taken, but mostly cosmetic changes.

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  • Dave SavageDave Savage Posts: 1,942
    edited December 1969

    Maybe this will help explain what I was saying previously.
    I have taken on board about the chair not having handles and altered these poses to reflect two people carrying something upstairs both grasping the bottom of the object. I've just used a box because it was simplest as I don't have a wheelchair prop, but the principle is the same.

    Notice how the two people use the most effective leverage that their limbs can easier manage and the person at the top has his shoulders really far forward to effectively extend his arms so he can still hold the bottom of the box without crouching down.
    Notice also that the guy at the top of the lift has one of his feet pointing sideways, this is the foot he always uses first to go up to the next step. He will lift his lower foot to the same step and then once again only move his left foot up another single step.
    The person at the bottom is taking most of the strain of the weight and has to have one leg really straight so will most likely do the same by lifting his left leg to the step above and keeping it straight while his right leg does all the lifting and bending.

    I've done it from three slightly different angles for a better view of the relative positions. Hope this helps a bit :-)

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  • DWGDWG Posts: 772
    edited December 1969

    chohole said:
    His is very original THis is him parked outside the housing complex where he lives. "I think it counts as "sheltered housing" THis photo was taken by the peeps who run the complex, as they were so ammused by having a disabled person using this sort of transport. THe trike has been updtated a bit since this photo was taken, but mostly cosmetic changes.

    Wow, that's quite a beast! Not one I recall seeing, and I think I'd have remembered!

  • ChoholeChohole Posts: 19,381
    edited December 1969

    Yeah,he is and the trike is quite eye catching as well. :coolsmirk:

  • DWGDWG Posts: 772
    edited August 2012

    Maybe this will help explain what I was saying previously.
    I have taken on board about the chair not having handles and altered these poses to reflect two people carrying something upstairs both grasping the bottom of the object. I've just used a box because it was simplest as I don't have a wheelchair prop, but the principle is the same.

    I do see what you're trying to say, but what you've forgotten to account for is the occupant of the chair, which will make the rear of the box roughly twice as high, forcing the upper person back and away, and as he moves back, his shoulders will be forced away, and maintaining his grip with the fixed length of his arms will force him into a lower position with a deeper knee bend. At the same time the feet of the occupant, together with the footplate, lower front frame and the front castors will limit the positions where the lower person can grasp the chair and force him further away from the chair.

    I've taken a side view of the chair and user from my other image and superimposed them on your view to show the problem. The user has been scaled to have roughly the same torso height as the Michaels and tilted back 10 degrees, with the lifting point on the rear frame placed coincident with the bottom right corner of your cube. As you can see the users head and shoulders are in the same place the upper person's head and shoulders are, while her feet are projecting into the lower person's groin and the front casters are potentially sticking into his thighs - a wheelchair is a really awkward load, and the lift positions that work are not the same as the ideal lift positions for a box.

    The person at the bottom is taking most of the strain of the weight

    Which might be applicable if the weight is distributed evenly, but by design almost all of the weight of the chair and occupant is aligned over the rear axle, putting the load on the upper person with the more awkward lifting position, hence the deep squat to allow his legs to do the work of lifting with his back straight and his arms locked rather than lifting.

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  • JaderailJaderail Posts: 0
    edited December 1969

    Silly Idea. Why not get some real pictures of it being done? That would solve all the questions. All you need is the people willing to do it and a short set of steps. Just a thought.

  • Dave SavageDave Savage Posts: 1,942
    edited December 1969

    Yes, the girl in the wheelchair would be leaning further forward and the top lifter would be almost hanging over her shoulder.
    Mine is a much more realistic lifting pose for both the lifters which could be adapted suitably for whatever they were lifting.
    But there's no point me sitting and arguing about it with you. it's your render. :-)

  • namffuaknamffuak Posts: 901
    edited December 1969

    Jaderail said:
    Silly Idea. Why not get some real pictures of it being done? That would solve all the questions. All you need is the people willing to do it and a short set of steps. Just a thought.

    I spent some time yesterday trying to find anything on the web in the way of suggestions for moving the chair and occupant over stairs and came up dry. I do know that I would not voluntarily take that trip downstairs with any random pair of volunteers - it looks like an accident waiting to happen.

    Given the geometry, I don't see two people, one in front and one in back, doing this. I can see two people, one on each side, each gripping a rear handle and the frame near the leg rest. Or two people, one with the chair user and one with the chair. OR, provide the gent in the back with a padded web strap with snap hooks, to attach to the grips, putting the load on his neck and shoulders and allowing him to stand up and stabilize the chair back with his hands.

    Or - reverse the chair; the downhill person taking the brunt of the weight standing, holding the seat grips and the one on top holding the leg rests. The chair user would then be in a reclining position.


    Does the chair manufacturer have any recommendations?

  • DWGDWG Posts: 772
    edited August 2012

    Yes, the girl in the wheelchair would be leaning further forward

    A lot of wheelchair users can't lean forward, they don't have the working core musculature to support themselves in any position much off upright - in the original pose the woman in the chair is actually being supported against the chest of the man lifting the rear of the chair. I think the problem is I'm coming at it from the position of someone who knows the issues that the disabled person faces and the nature of chair design, while other people are making assumptions that don't apply because they aren't familiar with them. I'm not being deliberately obstinate, I just see real-world issues that make the advice I'm getting inapplicable.

    Post edited by DWG on
  • DWGDWG Posts: 772
    edited December 1969

    namffuak said:
    Jaderail said:
    Silly Idea. Why not get some real pictures of it being done? That would solve all the questions. All you need is the people willing to do it and a short set of steps. Just a thought.

    I spent some time yesterday trying to find anything on the web in the way of suggestions for moving the chair and occupant over stairs and came up dry. I do know that I would not voluntarily take that trip downstairs with any random pair of volunteers - it looks like an accident waiting to happen.

    It's not something that is easily, or lightly done, hence the difficulty in finding pictures - most photographers settle for putting the wheelie at the top or bottom of the stairs, looking glum. But sometimes circumstances mean people find themselves forced to do it, which is very much what I'm trying to show. Out of 270 Tube stations, only 66, virtually all in the suburbs, have step free access to the platform, and 49 of those then have a step up to the train. Even if you set off going to an accessible station, you may find yourself dumped at an inaccessible station due to operating problems. I've been in situations where I've been dumped in a tube station I don't know, with the only way out being a massive flight of stairs. If I'd been using a wheelchair rather than crutches, then I would have been facing something like the situation I'm trying to illustrate, and even with crutches it's enough of a problem I now avoid the Tube, even if that means not going into London. The No Go Britain series on Channel 4 News a couple of months ago (which a friend ran) featured a young woman on one of its pieces who can only use her local Tube station by going up and down its stairs on the seat of her pants, dragging her wheelchair behind her, but few wheelchair users are as fit as she is and for most using the Tube would mean facing something like this.

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