Digital Art Zone

 
   
2 of 3
2
Pose Opinions Request
Posted: 15 August 2012 12:28 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 16 ]
Administrator
Avatar
RankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  17029
Joined  2003-10-09

Yes I see the problem as well, not an easy thing to get down the stairs.  Would actually normally be a lot more crowded around that tube access, if it was a popular station, and there may be more help, but with just 2 people, not an easy task.

 Signature 

Chohole’s Space        NeilV’s Freebies and stuff        Winter Bryce Rendering Challenge        December Freebie Challenge
My DAZ 3D Gallery    11915

Profile
 
 
Posted: 15 August 2012 01:32 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 17 ]
Administrator
Avatar
RankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  9573
Joined  2007-11-06

I see, that wheelchair is not designed to be pushed at all, strange design.

 Signature 

PostgreSQL CMS FAQ
Tutorial: Adding Surfaces in DS
Product Updates: Non-Genesis/G2 DIM Zips
Non-Genesis Items with Metadata
Updated Genesis Products

Profile
 
 
Posted: 15 August 2012 02:42 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 18 ]
Active Member
Avatar
RankRank
Total Posts:  768
Joined  2005-09-19
fixmypcmike - 15 August 2012 01:32 PM

I see, that wheelchair is not designed to be pushed at all, strange design.

It’s the standard lightweight, rigid frame ‘active user’ design for people who don’t need assistance unless they run into an obstacle like the Tube (Tube inaccessibility being the reason for the image), a back is just extra weight that’s going to get in the way, particularly if you’re sitting in the driver’s seat of a car trying to lift the wheel-less frame past you into the passenger seat, what back there is will normally fold flat for that.

Cho: yes, there would normally be more people around the tube entrance, but 1) I haven’t put them in yet, 2) I need to keep the viewing angles clear, and 3) there’s not really room for more people to help, you might be able to get two at the front, one to each side, but all the weight is actually at the back.

Profile
 
 
Posted: 15 August 2012 03:14 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 19 ]
Administrator
Avatar
RankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  17029
Joined  2003-10-09

Yes I can understand you on that. Normally Winnie, if she was having one of her needing a wheelchair episodes, would only use the car if her otherhalf was available to travel with her. She drove a standard Ford Estate, but converted to all hand controls. Always had her German shepherd in the back. He used the car as a Kennel overnight, because she had had the car stolen once.

He was lovely, but wouldn’t let anyone near Winnie or the car whne on duty. He was a failed RAF dog. Failed becude he refused to jump out an airplane with a parachute.

Keith, our other friend with MS drives a standard mobility car Again he looks for a chaufeur when in wheel chair mode.  My brother, well I am not sure if you saw the photo I posted a couple of times in the old forum of his mode of transport. He is a biker, now disabled but still a biker, or rather now a triker. Belongs to the Medway Renegades.

 Signature 

Chohole’s Space        NeilV’s Freebies and stuff        Winter Bryce Rendering Challenge        December Freebie Challenge
My DAZ 3D Gallery    11915

Profile
 
 
Posted: 15 August 2012 06:07 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 20 ]
Active Member
Avatar
RankRank
Total Posts:  768
Joined  2005-09-19

Didn’t see it, but it’s entirely possible I’ve been passed by him, I live in Medway. Yellow wheel-on design by any chance?

Profile
 
 
Posted: 16 August 2012 04:17 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 21 ]
Administrator
Avatar
RankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  17029
Joined  2003-10-09

His is very original   THis is him parked outside the housing complex where he lives. “I think it counts as “sheltered housing” THis photo was taken by the peeps who run the complex, as they were so ammused by having a disabled person using this sort of transport.  THe trike has been updtated a bit since this photo was taken, but mostly cosmetic changes.

Image Attachments
daves_trike_again.jpg
 Signature 

Chohole’s Space        NeilV’s Freebies and stuff        Winter Bryce Rendering Challenge        December Freebie Challenge
My DAZ 3D Gallery    11915

Profile
 
 
Posted: 16 August 2012 10:14 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 22 ]
Power Member
Avatar
RankRankRank
Total Posts:  1772
Joined  2007-12-10

Maybe this will help explain what I was saying previously.
I have taken on board about the chair not having handles and altered these poses to reflect two people carrying something upstairs both grasping the bottom of the object. I’ve just used a box because it was simplest as I don’t have a wheelchair prop, but the principle is the same.

Notice how the two people use the most effective leverage that their limbs can easier manage and the person at the top has his shoulders really far forward to effectively extend his arms so he can still hold the bottom of the box without crouching down.
Notice also that the guy at the top of the lift has one of his feet pointing sideways, this is the foot he always uses first to go up to the next step. He will lift his lower foot to the same step and then once again only move his left foot up another single step.
The person at the bottom is taking most of the strain of the weight and has to have one leg really straight so will most likely do the same by lifting his left leg to the step above and keeping it straight while his right leg does all the lifting and bending.

I’ve done it from three slightly different angles for a better view of the relative positions. Hope this helps a bit grin

Image Attachments
Carrying2.jpgCarrying1.jpgCarrying3.jpg
 Signature 

I’ve got nothing of my own to promote, no models, no tutorials, no website, nothin’, nada, nill, nowt.

Profile
 
 
Posted: 16 August 2012 10:48 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 23 ]
Active Member
Avatar
RankRank
Total Posts:  768
Joined  2005-09-19
chohole - 16 August 2012 04:17 AM

His is very original   THis is him parked outside the housing complex where he lives. “I think it counts as “sheltered housing” THis photo was taken by the peeps who run the complex, as they were so ammused by having a disabled person using this sort of transport.  THe trike has been updtated a bit since this photo was taken, but mostly cosmetic changes.

Wow, that’s quite a beast! Not one I recall seeing, and I think I’d have remembered!

Profile
 
 
Posted: 16 August 2012 11:31 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 24 ]
Administrator
Avatar
RankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  17029
Joined  2003-10-09

Yeah,he is and the trike is quite eye catching as well.  cool smirk

 Signature 

Chohole’s Space        NeilV’s Freebies and stuff        Winter Bryce Rendering Challenge        December Freebie Challenge
My DAZ 3D Gallery    11915

Profile
 
 
Posted: 16 August 2012 11:33 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 25 ]
Active Member
Avatar
RankRank
Total Posts:  768
Joined  2005-09-19
TheSavage64 - 16 August 2012 10:14 AM

Maybe this will help explain what I was saying previously.
I have taken on board about the chair not having handles and altered these poses to reflect two people carrying something upstairs both grasping the bottom of the object. I’ve just used a box because it was simplest as I don’t have a wheelchair prop, but the principle is the same.

I do see what you’re trying to say, but what you’ve forgotten to account for is the occupant of the chair, which will make the rear of the box roughly twice as high, forcing the upper person back and away, and as he moves back, his shoulders will be forced away, and maintaining his grip with the fixed length of his arms will force him into a lower position with a deeper knee bend. At the same time the feet of the occupant, together with the footplate, lower front frame and the front castors will limit the positions where the lower person can grasp the chair and force him further away from the chair.

I’ve taken a side view of the chair and user from my other image and superimposed them on your view to show the problem. The user has been scaled to have roughly the same torso height as the Michaels and tilted back 10 degrees, with the lifting point on the rear frame placed coincident with the bottom right corner of your cube. As you can see the users head and shoulders are in the same place the upper person’s head and shoulders are, while her feet are projecting into the lower person’s groin and the front casters are potentially sticking into his thighs - a wheelchair is a really awkward load, and the lift positions that work are not the same as the ideal lift positions for a box.

The person at the bottom is taking most of the strain of the weight

Which might be applicable if the weight is distributed evenly, but by design almost all of the weight of the chair and occupant is aligned over the rear axle, putting the load on the upper person with the more awkward lifting position, hence the deep squat to allow his legs to do the work of lifting with his back straight and his arms locked rather than lifting.

 

Image Attachments
Lift-Prob.jpg
Profile
 
 
Posted: 16 August 2012 11:48 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 26 ]
Administrator
Avatar
RankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  16403
Joined  2009-01-22

Silly Idea. Why not get some real pictures of it being done? That would solve all the questions. All you need is the people willing to do it and a short set of steps. Just a thought.

 Signature 

Exile, Drows Walk: A Tale of Jaderail starts here. Free pulp fiction at its Fantasy best, Updated 2/3/14.
Proud Member of the Bald Wizards Club My stuff at DeviantArt

Profile
 
 
Posted: 16 August 2012 11:58 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 27 ]
Power Member
Avatar
RankRankRank
Total Posts:  1772
Joined  2007-12-10

Yes, the girl in the wheelchair would be leaning further forward and the top lifter would be almost hanging over her shoulder.
Mine is a much more realistic lifting pose for both the lifters which could be adapted suitably for whatever they were lifting.
But there’s no point me sitting and arguing about it with you. it’s your render. grin

 Signature 

I’ve got nothing of my own to promote, no models, no tutorials, no website, nothin’, nada, nill, nowt.

Profile
 
 
Posted: 16 August 2012 12:34 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 28 ]
Active Member
Avatar
RankRank
Total Posts:  655
Joined  2005-09-12
Jaderail - 16 August 2012 11:48 AM

Silly Idea. Why not get some real pictures of it being done? That would solve all the questions. All you need is the people willing to do it and a short set of steps. Just a thought.

I spent some time yesterday trying to find anything on the web in the way of suggestions for moving the chair and occupant over stairs and came up dry. I do know that I would not voluntarily take that trip downstairs with any random pair of volunteers - it looks like an accident waiting to happen.

Given the geometry, I don’t see two people, one in front and one in back, doing this. I can see two people, one on each side, each gripping a rear handle and the frame near the leg rest. Or two people, one with the chair user and one with the chair. OR, provide the gent in the back with a padded web strap with snap hooks, to attach to the grips, putting the load on his neck and shoulders and allowing him to stand up and stabilize the chair back with his hands.

Or - reverse the chair; the downhill person taking the brunt of the weight standing, holding the seat grips and the one on top holding the leg rests. The chair user would then be in a reclining position.


Does the chair manufacturer have any recommendations?

 Signature 

The only constant is change—and it’s a variable.

Profile
 
 
Posted: 16 August 2012 03:44 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 29 ]
Active Member
Avatar
RankRank
Total Posts:  768
Joined  2005-09-19
TheSavage64 - 16 August 2012 11:58 AM

Yes, the girl in the wheelchair would be leaning further forward

A lot of wheelchair users can’t lean forward, they don’t have the working core musculature to support themselves in any position much off upright - in the original pose the woman in the chair is actually being supported against the chest of the man lifting the rear of the chair. I think the problem is I’m coming at it from the position of someone who knows the issues that the disabled person faces and the nature of chair design, while other people are making assumptions that don’t apply because they aren’t familiar with them. I’m not being deliberately obstinate, I just see real-world issues that make the advice I’m getting inapplicable.

 

Profile
 
 
Posted: 16 August 2012 04:18 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 30 ]
Active Member
Avatar
RankRank
Total Posts:  768
Joined  2005-09-19
namffuak - 16 August 2012 12:34 PM
Jaderail - 16 August 2012 11:48 AM

Silly Idea. Why not get some real pictures of it being done? That would solve all the questions. All you need is the people willing to do it and a short set of steps. Just a thought.

I spent some time yesterday trying to find anything on the web in the way of suggestions for moving the chair and occupant over stairs and came up dry. I do know that I would not voluntarily take that trip downstairs with any random pair of volunteers - it looks like an accident waiting to happen.

It’s not something that is easily, or lightly done, hence the difficulty in finding pictures - most photographers settle for putting the wheelie at the top or bottom of the stairs, looking glum. But sometimes circumstances mean people find themselves forced to do it, which is very much what I’m trying to show.  Out of 270 Tube stations, only 66, virtually all in the suburbs, have step free access to the platform, and 49 of those then have a step up to the train. Even if you set off going to an accessible station, you may find yourself dumped at an inaccessible station due to operating problems.  I’ve been in situations where I’ve been dumped in a tube station I don’t know, with the only way out being a massive flight of stairs. If I’d been using a wheelchair rather than crutches, then I would have been facing something like the situation I’m trying to illustrate, and even with crutches it’s enough of a problem I now avoid the Tube, even if that means not going into London. The No Go Britain series on Channel 4 News a couple of months ago (which a friend ran) featured a young woman on one of its pieces who can only use her local Tube station by going up and down its stairs on the seat of her pants, dragging her wheelchair behind her, but few wheelchair users are as fit as she is and for most using the Tube would mean facing something like this.

Profile
 
 
   
2 of 3
2